Problems Replacing stolen train tickets

[Spirit555]

I would be very interested to know anyone's views, experiences etc. on the above.

I purchased tickets from London North Western using Paypal to use on Virgin Trains on 15th July. I duly collected the tickets and put them in my wallet for safe keeping.

I subsequently had my bag stolen with my wallet in and various other items. I went to enquire about replacements and got a flat refusal all round, stating they cannot be re-issued as it could be fraud.

I had a crime number for the theft too. I fully understand the conditions of carriage, however I feel that I am being Criminalised for something that is totally beyond my control. What happens in a case of burglary or mugging. I would imagine the same outcome.

All of this I feel is morally wrong, especially as it brands everyone as a criminal.

I am currently in dispute with LNWR over this and hope to resolve this with Paypal's help.

Any views or help much appreciated

Mark

 

[swt_passenger]

My view is that neither LNWR or PayPal have any responsibility whatsoever here, it’s what insurance is for.

 

[Hadders]

Sorry to hear about the theft of your wallet.

Rail tickets should be treated as cash. Your bank can’t replace stolen cash and the same applies to rail tickets.

You might be lucky and convince them to replace them as a goodwill gesture but there’s to entitlement to have them replaced. Alternatively you might be able to claim on your insurance.

This is one advantage of an e-ticket as you could simply print another copy.

 

[Saperstein]

Sorry to hear about this but as @Hadders has said rail tickets are like cash.

I too had my wallet stolen some months back, managed to get bank cards sorted ect but obviously the cash and postage stamps within were lost.

My Disabled persons railcard was replaced feee of charge though on presentation of a crime number from Avon & Somerset Police.

I would have not expected the same of tickets of course as they, like cash can be used by anybody.

I did not claim on insurance because the excess far outweighed the sum lost.

Saperstein

 

[Saperstein]

This is one advantage of an e-ticket as you could simply print another copy.

But if it’s already been used by the thief/robber wouldn’t that fact flag up on scanning?

Saperstein

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because tickets have value in and of themselves, and there is no mechanism to cancel them, they are effectively treated as cash. Therefore sadly it is indeed not possible to replace them. This would be a matter for any personal possessions insurance you may hold, or may just be one you have to take on the chin if you have elected not to take any such insurance policy.

The other way to avoid the risk is to collect them on the day of travel. Or don't take the risk of putting your wallet in your bag - I never like it anywhere other than my pocket!

 

[Hadders]

But if it’s already been used by the thief/robber wouldn’t that fact flag up on scanning?

Saperstein

That’s true as the tickets can only be used once although I doubt very much that anyone stealing a wallet will be after rail tickets.

 

[Saperstein]

That’s true as the tickets can only be used once although I doubt very much that anyone stealing a wallet will be after rail tickets.

True, in my case several of the cards were contactless, It turns out that no attempt had been made to use them, I suspect the thief was only after money. The thing that upset me the most was I lost a very special photograph of which, stupidly, I did not have backed up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

True, in my case several of the cards were contactless, It turns out that no attempt had been made to use them, I suspect the thief was only after money. The thing that upset me the most was I lost a very special photograph of which, stupidly, I did not have backed up.

It amazes me just how many people keep important stuff on their phone with no backup at all. You have to do little more than sign into your Google/Apple account to back up crucial things like photos and contacts.

 

[Saperstein]

It amazes me just how many people keep important stuff on their phone with no backup at all. You have to do little more than sign into your Google/Apple account to back up crucial things like photos and contacts.

It was an actual photograph, I know I should have scanned it in but didn’t. I learnt my lesson that night.

Saperstein

 

[cactustwirly]

Because tickets have value in and of themselves, and there is no mechanism to cancel them, they are effectively treated as cash. Therefore sadly it is indeed not possible to replace them. This would be a matter for any personal possessions insurance you may hold, or may just be one you have to take on the chin if you have elected not to take any such insurance policy.

The other way to avoid the risk is to collect them on the day of travel. Or don't take the risk of putting your wallet in your bag - I never like it anywhere other than my pocket!

But who takes out personal possessions insurance?
It's a stupid policy, if the OP has a genuine crime number, then I don't see why the tickets can't be reissued

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But who takes out personal possessions insurance?

Most people who have home insurance.

 

[IanD]

But who takes out personal possessions insurance?

Me. It comes with home insurance, might cost a bit extra but probably worth it. I think mine added about £5 to the cost of my policy.

 

[mallard]

in my case several of the cards were contactless, It turns out that no attempt had been made to use them

Most places that accept contactless payments also have CCTV, so using a stolen card carries a risk to the thief.

I once lost a first-class CIV ticket home when my phone (it had a case that had slots for cards, which is where I stored the ticket) was stolen in France. Thankfully my Eurostar ticket was stored separately (due to its size) or it'd really have been in difficulty.

At the end of the day, when "the railway" has done nothing wrong, why should they have to issue what is effectively another "free" ticket? Maybe if the ticket is an Advance which can clearly only be used once by one person there's very little chance that the thief would try to use it (Would the BTP consider it within their remit if both the thief and legitimate owner of the ticket turned up?), but if it's an ordinary walk-up fare you're just transferring the loss to someone else (admittedly a large for-profit company that only "loses" the marginal cost of providing the service at most, rather than the face value of the ticket that the passenger loses), which isn't really any improvement in terms of "justice".

 

[Bletchleyite]

But who takes out personal possessions insurance?

Almost everyone who has a home insurance policy (or lives in a house covered by one) that isn't just the cheapest, bare minimum one. Quite a few packaged bank accounts include it on a standalone basis, too.

It probably wasn't important 20 years ago, but these days I typically walk around with about 800 quid's worth of tech on me (and those who go for Apple and other premium brands probably well in excess of twice that), even though I don't carry a lot of cash and generally keep tickets purchased in advance at home until the day of travel.

If the OP still lives with parents, it might be worth enquiring as to whether that may provide cover if the tickets were expensive. If they were cheap, it's probably not worth claiming due to the excess/increase to premiums next year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if it's an ordinary walk-up fare you're just transferring the loss to someone else (admittedly a large for-profit company that only "loses" the marginal cost of providing the service at most, rather than the face value of the ticket that the passenger loses), which isn't really any improvement in terms of "justice".

I suppose the argument in favour of a re-issue being available is that it's easier for the "big man" (the TOC) to bear that loss than the "little man" (the victim), as it can be spread across countless other ticket sales to cover the cost. This is not dissimilar to the way airlines (or indeed TOCs) are required to assist with rebooking and/or hotel accommodation even in the event of disruption that isn't their fault e.g. weather.

The real solution to this is to move to e-ticketing for all tickets including those issued on orange card (which could still be on orange card, but containing a barcode as a reference to the actual ticket in the database). If reported stolen, it would then be easy to cancel and reissue, and flag the cancelled ticket that if an attempt is made to use it, then summoning the BTP to at least interview the user about the theft is probably a good idea.

 

[cactustwirly]

Almost everyone who has a home insurance policy (or lives in a house covered by one) that isn't just the cheapest, bare minimum one. Quite a few packaged bank accounts include it on a standalone basis, too.

It probably wasn't important 20 years ago, but these days I typically walk around with about 800 quid's worth of tech on me (and those who go for Apple and other premium brands probably well in excess of twice that), even though I don't carry a lot of cash and generally keep tickets purchased in advance at home until the day of travel.

If the OP still lives with parents, it might be worth enquiring as to whether that may provide cover if the tickets were expensive. If they were cheap, it's probably not worth claiming due to the excess/increase to premiums next year.

My contents insurance didn't cover it, unless you pay extra.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My contents insurance didn't cover it, unless you pay extra.

Depends on the policy. But in any case I was taking issue with the suggestion that "nobody" had it, it is in fact extremely common.

Not dissimilar in a way to the belief that most cyclists are uninsured, which is false as the vast majority of home contents insurance policies contain a generalised third party liability clause applicable to those living in the property (or as a minimum to the policyholder), and those clauses typically exclude liability arising from motor vehicle use but do not exclude use of pedal cycles. I remember confirming some time ago with Direct Line in writing that the policy of theirs I held at the time definitely would have covered me if I had inadvertently cycled into a car, for example.

 

[Darandio]

I duly collected the tickets and put them in my wallet for safe keeping.

I subsequently had my bag stolen with my wallet in and various other items.

These two sentences don't work together for me. Putting them in your wallet isn't 'safe keeping' unless you keep that wallet on your person. I cannot conceive any situation where I would stuff a wallet in an external bag, it's asking for trouble.

I'm with others here, I cannot see how there is any dispute with either LNWR or PayPal. Take more care in future.

 

[Alfonso]

I'm sorry you had your tickets and other things stolen, but you are not being criminalised by the railway or anyone else. You lost your wallet ,you need to buy a new one, you lost your tickets, you'll need to buy new ones. Nobody is accusing you of anything. The railway company will replace your tickets as willingly as the bank will replace any cash you lost or John Lewis or whoever will replace your wallet.

 

[Deafdoggie]

But who takes out personal possessions insurance?
It's a stupid policy, if the OP has a genuine crime number, then I don't see why the tickets can't be reissued

The problem is, the railway have no way of stopping the original ones from being used.

If I got £20 cash out of the Post Office and it got stolen, should the Post Office give me another £20 just because I have a crime number?

 

[Spirit555]

I'm sorry you had your tickets and other things stolen, but you are not being criminalised by the railway or anyone else. You lost your wallet ,you need to buy a new one, you lost your tickets, you'll need to buy new ones. Nobody is accusing you of anything. The railway company will replace your tickets as willingly as the bank will replace any cash you lost or John Lewis or whoever will replace your wallet.

It certainly feels as if I am being treated like a criminal. The conditions of carriage are quoted too many times. Like some byelaws I think they are outdated and no longer fit for purpose. Theft in any shape or form is so common these days and should be treated on an individual basis just as any act of robbery is with Police the use of CCTV these days. I will switch to e tickets from now on and have having had to purchase new tickets at considerably more cost than the originals.

It's been interesting see peoples responses, be they positive, negative or whatever.

The way LNWR has treated me makes you definitely feel like a criminal. They are very sympathetic to start with and hit you with "Nothing we can do refer to conditions of carriage". It's an easy cop out for them. Needless to say I will check my previously booked seats, and if anyone is sat in them I will politely ask the train manager to scrutinise their tickets, and if necessary take the appropriate action.

Mark

 

[Hadders]

I’m sorry you feel that way but would you expect your bank to reimburse you if you had cash stolen from your wallet?

 

[Spirit555]

I’m sorry you feel that way but would you expect your bank to reimburse you if you had cash stolen from your wallet?

No I wouldn't but treating train tickets like cash when paid for using a credit card is totally different in my view and a lot of friends agree with me on that. I don't have credit card insurance either. I have had a similar incident where goods never arrived and I proved they hadn't and got a full refund. The tracking number provided never generated any goods. I know that's a different thing, but there should be some differentia's between cah and credit card.. But that is my view.

Mark

 

[Deafdoggie]

No I wouldn't but treating train tickets like cash when paid for using a credit card is totally different in my view and a lot of friends agree with me on that. I don't have credit card insurance either. I have had a similar incident where goods never arrived and I proved they hadn't and got a full refund. The tracking number provided never generated any goods. I know that's a different thing, but there should be some differentia's between cah and credit card.. But that is my view.

Mark

How a ticket is paid for makes no difference in the train company being able to stop it being used.
The only difference is that the bank may reimburse you for it if you paid by card.

 

[furlong]

Well if the tickets were transferable in the same way that cash is, then the railway might have a point. But they are explicitly not transferable and so nobody else can use them so the railway does seem to be behaving inconsistently here and you might try to make a case that the conditions are unfair. Whether or not a ticket can be cancelled is under the railway's control, not yours, but if they were 'Advance' tickets (only valid on specific trains) then you might hope for a more sympathetic response as you can argue that they can easily be cancelled by informing the ticket inspector(s) on the train(s) concerned to refuse to accept them.

5.1. A Ticket may only be used by the person who bought that Ticket or on whose behalf that Ticket was bought unless specifically allowed by the terms and conditions applying to that Ticket.

4.5. If you lose or mislay a Ticket or it is stolen, it will only be replaced or (subject to the specific conditions associated with the Ticket) refunded provided that the original Ticket can be cancelled.

 

[Spirit555]

Well if the tickets were transferable in the same way that cash is, then the railway might have a point. But they are explicitly not transferable and so nobody else can use them so the railway does seem to be behaving inconsistently here and you might try to make a case that the conditions are unfair. Whether or not a ticket can be cancelled is under the railway's control, not yours, but if they were 'Advance' tickets (only valid on specific trains) then you might hope for a more sympathetic response as you can argue that they can easily be cancelled by informing the ticket inspector(s) on the train(s) concerned to refuse to accept them.

They are advanced purchase tickets for travel on 15/07/19. Ample time to cancel, replace or whatever. I will be asking the conductor to check my original seats if someone is sat there

 

[mmh]

Needless to say I will check my previously booked seats, and if anyone is sat in them I will politely ask the train manager to scrutinise their tickets, and if necessary take the appropriate action.

I've every sympathy and can empathise with your situation having lost a bag in a mugging in the past, but I'm afraid I have to say I don't think you'll have any good outcome here and will need to write it off as, bad, experience.

Being suspicious of anyone sat in your seat is a bit rash I think - countless people every day sit in someone else's reserved seat, I do it all the time. The chance that whoever stole your bag found your tickets and decides to use them for a random journey on a random date will be somewhere approaching zero.

I'd be surprised if any guard would "scrutinise" someone on this basis, they're more likely to nod politely and explain they can't.

 

[gray1404]

Now that we have established that the train companies are under no duty to replace tickets that are stolen, you may wish to appeal to their goodwill? When you say you have contacted the company that told the tickets to you, was this the actual train company directly? I ask this as often online/telesales is outsourced to a third party (often trainline) call centre and you might want to actually ask customer relations if you present them with your crime report, if they would be able to issue replacement tickets? I am not sure though if there is a way for them to be able to do this.

Given you have advance tickets valid for one specific train, which appears to be Virgin Trains, you could always ask them as the company you are booked to travel with, if they would allow you to travel under the circumstances and show them your crime report (such as by social media). Again, there is no duty for either party to help here but you could appeal to their goodwill. Nothing asked nothing gained.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well if the tickets were transferable in the same way that cash is, then the railway might have a point. But they are explicitly not transferable and so nobody else can use them so the railway does seem to be behaving inconsistently here and you might try to make a case that the conditions are unfair. Whether or not a ticket can be cancelled is under the railway's control, not yours, but if they were 'Advance' tickets (only valid on specific trains) then you might hope for a more sympathetic response as you can argue that they can easily be cancelled by informing the ticket inspector(s) on the train(s) concerned to refuse to accept them.

Apart from pointing out how unworkable that is... stolen tickets can also be used to excess up to other flexible fares at a ticket office.