Problems with American Express on Northern Ticket Machines

[andrewkeith5]

My amex rarely works anywhere on contactless and most retailers I use it at insist it go in the machine and then it works fine. Not sure why tho.

Amex contactless is only very slightly different to Visa/MasterCard. I believe it is a relatively simple security module that the reader needs to be setup with, but I can only assume that some retailers can't be bothered to get their readers setup properly ASDA use exactly the same model of card reader as Sainsbury's, but Sainsbury's bothered to set theirs up properly so Amex Contactless and Apple Pay are accepted just fine, but ASDA apparently can't be bothered...McDonalds finally got around to setting theirs up properly in the last few months.

Not true but is in the process of becoming true. Lloyds and MBNA issue Amex cards but MBNA ones have been withdrawn, and Lloyds is not open to new customers and existing cards will be withdrawn in the next 8 months.

Amex charges to the merchant can be lower than Visa and Mastercard charges, especially if the Visa or Mastercard is a corporate card, a "premium" card or issued outside the UK. For example, Tesco Bank used to issue the Tesco World Mastercard to high spenders but found they were paying through the nose when the card was used in Tesco.

Yeah. I have a World Mastercard as my backup card for retailers who don't appreciate the trade of American Express Cardmembers. I do find it amusing as they explain how "expensive" Amex is whilst happily processing my even-more-expensive-to-them MasterCard.

Sadly, thanks to the EU all co-branded American Express cards have been withdrawn because the EU decided they should be included in the stupidly low Interchange Fee cap, thus basically eliminating any profit for American Express, Lloyds, Barclaycard and MBNA for issuing them.

---

I really don't buy that American Express cards are SO expensive to process compared to Visa/Mastercard. For companies with the sheer quantity of transaction volume as national retailers and travel companies, with some negotiation it can't be that difficult.

It's companies like WorldPay with their opaque fee structures, marketing and presumably hard sells and retailers that don't seem to bother taking the time to investigate options and alternatives that cause these things

 

[island]

Amex authorisations are odd regardless. Their cards do not work in contactless mode on board our trains for example yet are fine for chip and pin. I would imagine it's not a deliberate act.

If it’s this type of card reader that you have, it’s a hardware problem. This particular reader must doesn’t support Amex in contactless mode. It is, as you say, usable as chip & PIN.

 

[LowLevel]

If it’s this type of card reader that you have, it’s a hardware problem. This particular reader must doesn’t support Amex in contactless mode. It is, as you say, usable as chip & PIN.

It is indeed that type of reader. That explains that then!

 

[andrewkeith5]

If it’s this type of card reader that you have, it’s a hardware problem. This particular reader must doesn’t support Amex in contactless mode. It is, as you say, usable as chip & PIN.

Odd that they wouldn't include standards compliant hardware!

Though that looks very similar to the reader British Airways use for Buy on Board catering, and they managed to get American Express Contactless working

 

[Puffing Devil]

If it’s this type of card reader that you have, it’s a hardware problem. This particular reader must doesn’t support Amex in contactless mode. It is, as you say, usable as chip & PIN.

Rejected on both C+P and Contactless.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Most people we have who try and use AMEX seem to accept it being rejected as part and parcel of having AMEX - many often make a joke about don't worry Ive got another card on me!

 

[embers25]

I really don't buy that American Express cards are SO expensive to process compared to Visa/Mastercard. For companies with the sheer quantity of transaction volume as national retailers and travel companies, with some negotiation it can't be that difficult.

In my company in the states (a well known US fast food chain..but not the obvious 2) Amex charged us twice the commission visa or MC did.

 

[najaB]

But it is nevertheless not acceptable that Northern have obtained and installed new TVMs which don't accept a method of payment which is accepted on the rail network.

I'm sorry, but this is a nonsense. No TVMs allow you to pay with RTVs and many don't take cash.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'm sorry, but this is a nonsense. No TVMs allow you to pay with RTVs and many don't take cash.

There is, respectively, an additional cost, and an additional risk to taking either of those payment methods. I certainly don't expect any TOC to cater for RTVs at their TVMs, as I understand that they're rare. Cash I can see some justification in not accepting even though I know it used to be accepted everywhere so it's not great that it no longer is.

But in terms of cards, Northern are simply being scrooges by not accepting Amex. It costs them money to have a card reader one way or another, and Amex cards fit in a card reader just as any other cards do. They are simply not accepting it because they want to encourage people to use other payment methods that save them money in processing fees.

That's not a reason; in fact, it's not even an excuse. It's simply the thin end of Northern's profit-hungry greediness. Virtually every other TOC accepts Amex without issue at their TVMs, so Northern cannot justify this in any way - and certainly not when installing new TVMs!

If they had had negotiations with the RDG, DfT and other TOCs, and it was agreed that Amex would no longer be accepted at TVMs nationwide then that would be different. But they have gone the backhanded route and there can be no possible defence for this.

 

[Bantamzen]

There is, respectively, an additional cost, and an additional risk to taking either of those payment methods. I certainly don't expect any TOC to cater for RTVs at their TVMs, as I understand that they're rare. Cash I can see some justification in not accepting even though I know it used to be accepted everywhere so it's not great that it no longer is.

But in terms of cards, Northern are simply being scrooges by not accepting Amex. It costs them money to have a card reader one way or another, and Amex cards fit in a card reader just as any other cards do. They are simply not accepting it because they want to encourage people to use other payment methods that save them money in processing fees.

That's not a reason; in fact, it's not even an excuse. It's simply the thin end of Northern's profit-hungry greediness. Virtually every other TOC accepts Amex without issue at their TVMs, so Northern cannot justify this in any way - and certainly not when installing new TVMs!

If they had had negotiations with the RDG, DfT and other TOCs, and it was agreed that Amex would no longer be accepted at TVMs nationwide then that would be different. But they have gone the backhanded route and there can be no possible defence for this.

There's more than a hint of irony in lambasting one company for possibly refusing to pay the excessive charges of another, especially when that company probably doesn't need to apply the said charges as their clients will be making them plenty of money.

I'd say the real problem here lies with American Express.

 

[najaB]

But in terms of cards, Northern are simply being scrooges by not accepting Amex

I haven't seen any suggestion that Northern don't accept American Express. They just don't accept it at TVMs.

 

[Harpers Tate]

It's yet another example (of which there are many) of disparate organisations coming up with different answers to the same question - a question which should always have exactly the same answer. Type of machine, User Interface, payment accepted, and so on. This, for the customer's benefit; for (at least the semblance of) full integration.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

There's more than a hint of irony in lambasting one company for possibly refusing to pay the excessive charges of another, especially when that company probably doesn't need to apply the said charges as their clients will be making them plenty of money.

I'd say the real problem here lies with American Express.

Clearly they can't be excessive as is often claimed, otherwise all other TOCs would not be accepting American Express - and Northern would not be doing so on their website. It is purely a backhanded money-saving move by Northern that they hoped no-one would notice, or a very convenient "equipment problem". Whichever it is, accepting it is not an option and Northern must fix it.

 

[najaB]

Whichever it is, accepting it is not an option and Northern must fix it.

Would you be so kind as to provide a reference that says Northern is obligated to accept any specific payment method at their TVMs.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Would you be so kind as to provide a reference that says Northern is obligated to accept any specific payment method at their TVMs.

I have already done so upthread. NRE states Amex as an acceptable payment method. S50 of the CRA makes this an implied term of the contract.

I'm sure you know full well that Northern are obliged to accept Amex. So what's the point of trying to argue they aren't? Are the TOCs never wrong?

 

[andrewkeith5]

Most people we have who try and use AMEX seem to accept it being rejected as part and parcel of having AMEX - many often make a joke about don't worry Ive got another card on me!

Whilst that may be the case, retailers should consider that people use American Express cards for a very good reason, and many American Express Cardmembers will actively avoid suppliers who refuse to accept Amex.

Some retailers seem happy ignoring the income of people willing and able to pay up to £450 a year to use their credit card...

Not to mention that for many of the biggest companies around the world American Express is the default choice for corporate expenses cards, and many of said companies mandate their use wherever possible. Finding out that a company that really can afford it doesn’t want to bother to accept their customers preferred payment methods is sometimes very frustrating!

 

[Wallsendmag]

Cash is also acceptable but the TVM doesn’t take that either. NXEC stopped accepting Amex for a short period in 2009.

 

[najaB]

I have already done so upthread. NRE states Amex as an acceptable payment method.

As it does about cash and RTVs, yet they aren't accepted by many and all TVMs respectively.

 

[exesoundtech]

Contactless and AMEX is a funny thing. Most payment solutions now require a Payment Services Provider (PSP) who sit between the payment devices and the Acquiring Bank, such as Creditcall or Mastercard Payment Services. To accept AMEX as well as the "normal" cards a business needs two Acquiring Banks, one for the "normal" cards and one for AMEX (i.e. AMEX who provide this direct). The PSP then have to accredit the compliance of their solution with PCIDSS standards (the payment industry bible so to speak) for every combination of payment hardware and Acquiring Bank they support. All of which takes time and money, so this can result in what looks to customer like the same hardware behaving differently; such has contactless AMEX only working in some shops. It all depends on the combination of hardware, PSP and Acquiring Bank being used.

 

[Bantamzen]

Clearly they can't be excessive as is often claimed, otherwise all other TOCs would not be accepting American Express - and Northern would not be doing so on their website. It is purely a backhanded money-saving move by Northern that they hoped no-one would notice, or a very convenient "equipment problem". Whichever it is, accepting it is not an option and Northern must fix it.

As someone who I see as being concerned with consumer rights, I am very surprised that you are focusing on Northern not accepting them at TVMs rather than asking why Amex persist with a policy of charges that is clearly to the detriment of it's customers. Like I said, Amex is the real problem here.

 

[Starmill]

In my view it is a matter for Northern if they wish to accept anything at their ticket machines, or even have ticket machines.

The matter for the customer is only of what to do if their method of payment isn't accepted by the machine. Given I know from personal experience of arguing the point that Northern's staff dislike it when customers insist on paying their fare by one of the methods listed on the NRE page, I do not trust them. My last dispute over payment methods was in October 2017 and is not yet resolved. That was a special case though, as my money was refused both at my origin station, by the guard on the train and by the RPIs at my destination.

 

[Bantamzen]

In my view it is a matter for Northern if they wish to accept anything at their ticket machines, or even have ticket machines.

The matter for the customer is only of what to do if their method of payment isn't accepted by the machine. Given I know from personal experience of arguing the point that Northern's staff dislike it when customers insist on paying their fare by one of the methods listed on the NRE page, I do not trust them. My last dispute over payment methods was in October 2017 and is not yet resolved. That was a special case though, as my money was refused both at my origin station, by the guard on the train and by the RPIs at my destination.

I'm sorry but I do not agree. If one credit card company insists on higher than average transaction charges, then it is at the discretion of the retailer to accept or reject these charges as ultimately they will be passed to all customers, Amex holders or otherwise.

 

[island]

I have already done so upthread. NRE states Amex as an acceptable payment method. S50 of the CRA makes this an implied term of the contract.

Unfortunately this argument does not work. A person desirous of using a TVM does not have a contract with the TOC to imply any terms into.

A reasonable judge would in my view be slow to rule in favour of a TOC in a case where a payment method advertised as accepted was not, and a dispute ensued. An awkward one might (just might) invite the passenger to explain why he/she didn’t just use another payment method...

It would of course be considerably easier and more sensible if Northern stopped cutting corners.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Please, can we all calm down a little and get back to the thread purpose......

The purpose of the thread was to discover if anyone else was having issues with Amex authorisation at Northern TVMs.

If was very much not about the rights or wrongs of Amex, commission levels and whether or not Northern should accept RTVs. Please start another thread somewhere else if you want to chew that one over.

IME the machines will take the cards and a PIN, they fail at authorisation. I think this may be a widespread issue and I would like some data before going back to Northern. It is important for me as I expense a lot of rail travel and my current employer mandates the use of Amex in the first instance and I rather not order online for collection for a simple trip into Manchester.

 

[Bantamzen]

Please, can we all calm down a little and get back to the thread purpose......

The purpose of the thread was to discover if anyone else was having issues with Amex authorisation at Northern TVMs.

If was very much not about the rights or wrongs of Amex, commission levels and whether or not Northern should accept RTVs. Please start another thread somewhere else if you want to chew that one over.

IME the machines will take the cards and a PIN, they fail at authorisation. I think this may be a widespread issue and I would like some data before going back to Northern. It is important for me as I expense a lot of rail travel and my current employer mandates the use of Amex in the first instance and I rather not order online for collection for a simple trip into Manchester.

To answer your question, it seems at this time that Northern TVMs do not accept Amex. Therefore you will unfortunately need to either ask your employer to accept the use of another card, or procure your tickets in advance for collection.

 

[Puffing Devil]

To answer your question, it seems at this time that Northern TVMs do not accept Amex. Therefore you will unfortunately need to either ask your employer to accept the use of another card, or procure your tickets in advance for collection.

Is that your personal experience, or supposition? My question was to gather evidence and experience. Not supposition.

 

[Bantamzen]

Is that your personal experience, or supposition? My question was to gather evidence and experience. Not supposition.

Supposition, but based on what other posters have also said on here. I did mention further up thread that I've seen at least one Northern TVM displaying Visa and Mastercard symbols on-screen, but not Amex. So make of that what you will, but I think we can assume that there is a fair chance that those machines do not accept Amex at this time.

However if you require evidence, quite honestly ask Northern.

 

[Starmill]

Most people we have who try and use AMEX seem to accept it being rejected as part and parcel of having AMEX - many often make a joke about don't worry Ive got another card on me!

Lots of transport operators in the UK actually don't accept American Express cards, such as Tyne & Wear Metro and Metrolink. Northern, of course, isn't one of them!

 

[exesoundtech]

Please, can we all calm down a little and get back to the thread purpose......

The purpose of the thread was to discover if anyone else was having issues with Amex authorisation at Northern TVMs.

If was very much not about the rights or wrongs of Amex, commission levels and whether or not Northern should accept RTVs. Please start another thread somewhere else if you want to chew that one over.

IME the machines will take the cards and a PIN, they fail at authorisation. I think this may be a widespread issue and I would like some data before going back to Northern. It is important for me as I expense a lot of rail travel and my current employer mandates the use of Amex in the first instance and I rather not order online for collection for a simple trip into Manchester.

From what I've seen some of the new TVMs take AMEX and others don't. Could simply be a configuration thing, and Northern intend to have it on all of them, but the admin hasn't caught up with the new machines yet. Where have you tried - I've personally had AMEX accepted on the machines in Harrogate.

 

[Killingworth]

It seems clear enough, Northern TVMs find AmEx distasteful. It's not an uncommon view among retailers as the commission and procedures differ from other cards to the point that smaller transactions may cost more to process than they bring in.

To illustrate what happens I tried to purchase a ticket this evening. Of course, as expected it rejected, but I'd been allowed to go through the entire procedure as normal without a hitch and quickly received what a new user might expect to be a ticket. Apart from showing the amount paid as £0.00C the piece of card looked like any normal credit card voucher. PIN verified. Authorised, Sale confirmed. But no ticket/s to travel. If the card isn't going to be accepted it would save time if it said so earlier.