Problems with American Express on Northern Ticket Machines

[najaB]

Very odd, it even includes a ticket number!

 

[andrewkeith5]

It seems clear enough, Northern TVMs find AmEx distasteful. It's not an uncommon view among retailers as the commission and procedures differ from other cards to the point that smaller transactions may cost more to process than they bring in.

To illustrate what happens I tried to purchase a ticket this evening. Of course, as expected it rejected, but I'd been allowed to go through the entire procedure as normal without a hitch and quickly received what a new user might expect to be a ticket. Apart from showing the amount paid as £0.00C the piece of card looked like any normal credit card voucher. PIN verified. Authorised, Sale confirmed. But no ticket/s to travel. If the card isn't going to be accepted it would save time if it said so earlier.
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That looks to me like an indication that the machine simply hasn't been configured properly. If it wasn't supposed to accept Amex, it wouldn't bother asking for a PIN. It would either flat out reject it, or just not even recognise it as a Chip & Pin card and request it be swiped.

It looks like it is meant to be able to accept them but hasn't had the correct configuration loaded. Good luck finding someone who both cares enough and has enough influence to get it fixed though The Post Office have had the same problem with their self-service kiosks ever since they were introduced and haven't bothered to fix it.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It seems clear enough, Northern TVMs find AmEx distasteful. It's not an uncommon view among retailers as the commission and procedures differ from other cards to the point that smaller transactions may cost more to process than they bring in.

To illustrate what happens I tried to purchase a ticket this evening. Of course, as expected it rejected, but I'd been allowed to go through the entire procedure as normal without a hitch and quickly received what a new user might expect to be a ticket. Apart from showing the amount paid as £0.00C the piece of card looked like any normal credit card voucher. PIN verified. Authorised, Sale confirmed. But no ticket/s to travel. If the card isn't going to be accepted it would save time if it said so earlier.
View attachment 52699

Exactly the same as my experience, down to the "approved" voucher for £0.00.

Time to take NR to task - either they do or don't accept Amex at the TVMs. And if they decide they don't, where does that leave the Amex cardholders on PF routes?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

And if they decide they don't, where does that leave the Amex cardholders on PF routes?

From the perspective of Penalty Fares - in exactly the same situation they would be if Northern's ticket machines did accept Amex. Northern's Penalty Fare signage is not Regulations compliant so there is no enforceable Penalty Fares scheme in operation.

This leaves Byelaw 18 and RoRA - and neither could be satisfied if an Amex cardholder could not use their card to buy a ticket at their boarding station. They would be perfectly entitled to buy on-board, at an interchange station or at their destination.

 

[Bantamzen]

From the perspective of Penalty Fares - in exactly the same situation they would be if Northern's ticket machines did accept Amex. Northern's Penalty Fare signage is not Regulations compliant so there is no enforceable Penalty Fares scheme in operation.

This leaves Byelaw 18 and RoRA - and neither could be satisfied if an Amex cardholder could not use their card to buy a ticket at their boarding station. They would be perfectly entitled to buy on-board, at an interchange station or at their destination.

And guards / staff will sell tickets on board if there are problems with the TVM, this has been discussed many times since the Penalty Fare rollout began last December.

As for the no-sale voucher, I have similar when there was a fault with the smart card reader for West Yorkshire Mcards. I took it to simply be confirmation that no transaction had been completed.

 

[paul1609]

I've had this problem with American Express Cards and Southeastern TVMs for some years. Sometimes the sale will go straight through and sometimes it won't. I suspect its down to a problem with on line authorisation. In my case MBNA are pulling out of American Express so the problems been solved.

 

[35B]

Please, can we all calm down a little and get back to the thread purpose......

The purpose of the thread was to discover if anyone else was having issues with Amex authorisation at Northern TVMs.

If was very much not about the rights or wrongs of Amex, commission levels and whether or not Northern should accept RTVs. Please start another thread somewhere else if you want to chew that one over.

IME the machines will take the cards and a PIN, they fail at authorisation. I think this may be a widespread issue and I would like some data before going back to Northern. It is important for me as I expense a lot of rail travel and my current employer mandates the use of Amex in the first instance and I rather not order online for collection for a simple trip into Manchester.

In answer to that question, I find my corporate Amex (used for the same reasons as you) is frequently not accepted by ticket machines. I have had issues with machines operated by VTEC, Scotrail, and SWR. This has affected both purchases and TOD transactions.

Regardless of the charges levied by Amex, the failure of the industry to ensure that a widely used means of payment is consistently and reliably available to use by customers is significant. Users are often mandated to use it, and liable to issues with their employer where they don’t. Those experiences with travel providers (not just rail) have not just the usual influence over others, but also the ability to direct how colleagues and subordinates may travel.

 

[andrewkeith5]

In answer to that question, I find my corporate Amex (used for the same reasons as you) is frequently not accepted by ticket machines. I have had issues with machines operated by VTEC, Scotrail, and SWR. This has affected both purchases and TOD transactions.

Regardless of the charges levied by Amex, the failure of the industry to ensure that a widely used means of payment is consistently and reliably available to use by customers is significant. Users are often mandated to use it, and liable to issues with their employer where they don’t. Those experiences with travel providers (not just rail) have not just the usual influence over others, but also the ability to direct how colleagues and subordinates may travel.

I just take the view now that if a company wants my money, they have a very simple choice:

1) Take my money using the method I want to pay them with (which will ALWAYS be American Express)
2) Make their product so indespensible that I have no choice (this is incredibly difficult in the modern world where there’s an alternative to just about everything)
3) Be a charity that I care about enough not to care, although most of them use intermediaries that charge them the same fee regardless.

Otherwise, I’ll go and spend my money with an organisation that actually wants it. Again reminding them that Amex cardholders tend to have very high spends or be massive organisations...

That said on the railway I think the only Amex problem I’ve had recently on the railways is with SWR ticket machines. In that case, as my ticket was booked with the Trainline (no booking fee), I just used another card and vowed to make sure I never used SWR ticket sales!

 

[najaB]

Regardless of the charges levied by Amex, the failure of the industry to ensure that a widely used means of payment is consistently and reliably available to use by customers is significant.

As noted above, the problem isn't the railway's, it's Amex. I know of at least one very large (50,000+ employee) company that stopped using Amex for travel expenses because of the poor user experience and acceptance issues.

 

[andrewkeith5]

As noted above, the problem isn't the railway's, it's Amex. I know of at least one very large (50,000+ employee) company that stopped using Amex for travel expenses because of the poor user experience and acceptance issues.

I don’t think American Express can be blamed for the greed of retailers, particularly those retailers who don’t bother to look around for a better deal for card processing. But clearly we will never agree.

I will continue to use American Express because they are the only credit card provider that value my loyalty and the only financial institution apart from First Direct that seem to care half an inch about their customers - probably because thanks to the EU they are the only one allowed to charge enough to pay for customer support!

 

[najaB]

I don’t think American Express can be blamed for the greed of retailers, particularly those retailers who don’t bother to look around for a better deal for card processing.

Oh yeah, those greedy retailers who force Amex to charge higher fees than Mastercard and Visa.

 

[FQTV]

Oh yeah, those greedy retailers who force Amex to charge higher fees than Mastercard and Visa.

As I’ve noted before, I pay less to acquire American Express payments than I do for MasterCard, Visa and JCB. As @andrewkeith5 says, it’s up to the merchant to negotiate their charges.

The only difference between American Express and MasterCard/Visa is that American Express settles net of fees, whereas the latter settles gross and bills fees monthly.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Oh yeah, those greedy retailers who force Amex to charge higher fees than Mastercard and Visa.

It’s only more expensive if you can’t be bothered to find a card processor that charges more reasonable rates, as proven in the post above - if a retailer can’t be bothered to negotiate better terms or switch providers to reduce their costs that’s their fault.

 

[cav1975]

Not to mention that for many of the biggest companies around the world American Express is the default choice for corporate expenses cards, and many of said companies mandate their use wherever possible. Finding out that a company that really can afford it doesn’t want to bother to accept their customers preferred payment methods is sometimes very frustrating!

I had a corporate Amex card from my multi-national employer. It was very clear that they had been chosen on price alone. It was routine for my colleagues and I to have to carry a personal Visa or MasterCard as well in order to be sure of being able to pay everywhere. We never had that problem with the previous corporate Visa cards.

I think that Amex get their corporate volume by being seen to be lowest cost to corporate purchasing teams and then make their margin by charging retailers more.

 

[najaB]

It’s only more expensive if you can’t be bothered to find a card processor that charges more reasonable rates, as proven in the post above...

But, of course, that's the 'greedy retailer's' fault for not searching for a deal, rather than Amex's fault for being more expensive in the first place.

 

[WelshBluebird]

As noted above, the problem isn't the railway's, it's Amex. I know of at least one very large (50,000+ employee) company that stopped using Amex for travel expenses because of the poor user experience and acceptance issues.

Of course it is the railways problem. They are the ones who are deciding to accept Amex in some cases and not in others.

 

[andrewkeith5]

I had a corporate Amex card from my multi-national employer. It was very clear that they had been chosen on price alone. It was routine for my colleagues and I to have to carry a personal Visa or MasterCard as well in order to be sure of being able to pay everywhere. We never had that problem with the previous corporate Visa cards.

I think that Amex get their corporate volume by being seen to be lowest cost to corporate purchasing teams and then make their margin by charging retailers more.

Business and Corporate banking is not free from any bank as far as I know, but from what I understand (and I may be wrong) American Express do a lot more than most to help reduce a businesses other costs, including things like full integration with expenses systems and monthly reporting. That has a lot of value to corporate customers.

But, of course, that's the 'greedy retailer's' fault for not searching for a deal, rather than Amex's fault for being more expensive in the first place.

Obviously you aren't going to agree with me, and to be honest I don't care if you do or don't. All I'll say is that there's always another option, and if a company that's supposed to be acting to make profit can't be bothered to find effective ways of reducing it's costs and increasing customer satisfaction, what else aren't they bothering with to ensure their long term success?

American Express doesn't have to be more expensive to the retailer - a lot of their money actually comes from the fact that almost all of their Cardmembers pay them for use of the card. People wouldn't do that if it wasn't worth it.

Of course it is the railways problem. They are the ones who are deciding to accept Amex in some cases and not in others.

Precisely. Any sensible company will be willing to take their customers money however it's offered if they want it. It's a lot easier to take money your customers want to spend than try and find ways to get them to spend money they don't want to spend.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I just take the view now that if a company wants my money, they have a very simple choice:

1) Take my money using the method I want to pay them with (which will ALWAYS be American Express)
2) Make their product so indespensible that I have no choice (this is incredibly difficult in the modern world where there’s an alternative to just about everything)
3) Be a charity that I care about enough not to care, although most of them use intermediaries that charge them the same fee regardless.

Otherwise, I’ll go and spend my money with an organisation that actually wants it. Again reminding them that Amex cardholders tend to have very high spends or be massive organisations...

You make a good argument for not accepting Amex.

 

[Bantamzen]

It’s only more expensive if you can’t be bothered to find a card processor that charges more reasonable rates, as proven in the post above - if a retailer can’t be bothered to negotiate better terms or switch providers to reduce their costs that’s their fault.

If all retailers did so, Amex would almost certainly raise its charges. Amex are the issue here I'm afraid, they choose to set the differing rates that can lead to some retailers not accepting them. They may well be loyal to their best customers, but in business even loyalty has a cost. You have to remember that some TOCs have rather tight profit margins, and with growing resistance to subsidies they will look to cut their costs, or pass those onto the customers.

 

[Harpers Tate]

All of this debate about Amex acquiring fees is moot. Northern do accept Amex. At ticket offices; onboard (where applicable) and so on. The negotiation (such as it was) on fees has occurred. Whilst I can't be bothered to go look, it wouldn't at all surprise me if acceptance of a given range opf card types (including Amex) isn't part of the franchise specification.

The fact they have apparently failed to specify these new machines correctly has nothing to do with Amex.

 

[35B]

As noted above, the problem isn't the railway's, it's Amex. I know of at least one very large (50,000+ employee) company that stopped using Amex for travel expenses because of the poor user experience and acceptance issues.

Sorry, I can’t agree. I deal with the retailer, not the card company. If they advertise that they accept a card, it is their job to make that work.

 

[najaB]

Sorry, I can’t agree. I deal with the retailer, not the card company. If they advertise that they accept a card, it is their job to make that work.

We're discussing two different things. I agree that, if a specific machine says it accepts Amex it should accept Amex. The comment you are replying to is a reply to the suggestion that Amex should be accepted everywhere and that it's the railway's fault that they don't accept it everywhere.

 

[WelshBluebird]

We're discussing two different things. I agree that, if a specific machine says it accepts Amex it should accept Amex. The comment you are replying to is a reply to the suggestion that Amex should be accepted everywhere and that it's the railway's fault that they don't accept it everywhere.

Well of course it is the railways fault that they don't accept it anywhere.
Sure, Northern may be making a business decision based on the higher fees that Amex charge, but that doesn't take away from the fact it is still their decision!

 

[najaB]

Well of course it is the railways fault that they don't accept it anywhere.
Sure, Northern may be making a business decision based on the higher fees that Amex charge, but that doesn't take away from the fact it is still their decision!

Yes, you're right. The point I was (badly) making is that it's not "greedy retailers" that are responsible, it's Amex (for choosing to charge the higher fees).

 

[35B]

We're discussing two different things. I agree that, if a specific machine says it accepts Amex it should accept Amex. The comment you are replying to is a reply to the suggestion that Amex should be accepted everywhere and that it's the railway's fault that they don't accept it everywhere.

But, in the context of this thread, I am also pointing out the failure of some operators who do accept Amex to enable their machines to perform transactions using those cards. My experience has been that these are not just purchases, but also TOD transactions.

Leaving aside my utter disbelief that a large company selling to businesses would not accept a widely used form of payment (the days of M&S refusing to takes cards are long gone), I also that the industry advertises, without qualification, that “All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, VisaDelta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.” In that context, I do not accept that any operator has the right to refuse to accept one of those card types at a machine that accepts cards.

 

[najaB]

I also that the industry advertises, without qualification, that “All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, VisaDelta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.” In that context, I do not accept that any operator has the right to refuse to accept one of those card types at a machine that accepts cards.

I return to the point made earlier - they also advertise that they accept cash and RTVs, yet neither of these can be used at many TVMs.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

But, in the context of this thread, I am also pointing out the failure of some operators who do accept Amex to enable their machines to perform transactions using those cards. My experience has been that these are not just purchases, but also TOD transactions.

Leaving aside my utter disbelief that a large company selling to businesses would not accept a widely used form of payment (the days of M&S refusing to takes cards are long gone), I also that the industry advertises, without qualification, that “All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, VisaDelta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.” In that context, I do not accept that any operator has the right to refuse to accept one of those card types at a machine that accepts cards.

I suppose the suggestion is that Northern do accept Amex - just not at their ticket machines. If we were talking about cash vs card for example, then I would accept that argument, since physical additional infrastructure is required to accept cash (and someone has to relatively frequently empty the cash stored in the ticket machine, to stop excessive amounts from being stolen). But here it is about one type of card not being accepted, whilst others are. It is merely a question of buying the correct card readers and getting the right services from the card reader provider - undoubtedly a question of incompetence (i.e forgot to add it to the specification/order when ordering the TVMs) or of malice (if we don't accept Amex, people will use a Visa/MC instead, slightly reducing our costs).

 

[Clip]

But, in the context of this thread, I am also pointing out the failure of some operators who do accept Amex to enable their machines to perform transactions using those cards. My experience has been that these are not just purchases, but also TOD transactions.

Leaving aside my utter disbelief that a large company selling to businesses would not accept a widely used form of payment (the days of M&S refusing to takes cards are long gone), I also that the industry advertises, without qualification, that “All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, VisaDelta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.” In that context, I do not accept that any operator has the right to refuse to accept one of those card types at a machine that accepts cards.

And again its worth noting that the quote you post from NRE also states that not all TVMs will accept all so you really do have to accept it as its written there in black and white - you just refuse to bother reading further

 

[35B]

I return to the point made earlier - they also advertise that they accept cash and RTVs, yet neither of these can be used at many TVMs.

Indeed. But there’s a difference between a machine that simply doesn’t have the wherewithal for cash or card or RTVs, bad though that is, and one that says it accepts card, yet won’t recognise thee card proffered. However, you ignore that the inability to accept Amex for purchases also means that functions like TOD don’t work for purchases made with Amex, a specific issue that I’ve had with several TOCs. That takes the debate to a different level, and one where the TOCs and their suppliers are quite simply in the wrong.

 

[najaB]

However, you ignore that the inability to accept Amex for purchases also means that functions like TOD don’t work for purchases made with Amex, a specific issue that I’ve had with several TOCs.

I don't ignore it, as I said above - it the machine said it takes Amex then it should take Amex for any purpose. However, if it doesn't accept it for purchases then there's no reason it should accept it for TOD. As with any TOD it's incumbent on the passenger to ensure that they can collect their ticket.