Procedure when Reservations cannot be placed

[Skipness]

On a roughly regular monthly basis I make a return journey from the East Midlands to Cornwall with advance purchase split tickets.
I have learnt from experience that reservations are essential to ensure a seat at busy periods (i.e. most of the day around New Street) and accept that split ticketing reservations can mean musical chairs, without the music.
However, I do recall a couple of journeys where reservations were suspended, and in neither case was this announced on the platform before boarding the train. The first occasion was when a booked HST was replaced by a 4 car voyager with the resultant over crowding as there were literally not enough seats to accommodate the number of passengers, but at least better than an outright cancellation, in the second instance it was an HST but passengers were happy to give up seats to another passenger brandishing a reservation.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Advance fares should just get you a counted place reservation, and then you can pay a quid or two if you actually want to book a seat...

We've been through this, I genuinely don't understand the logic.

AP ticket holders must be on the train, therefore they must be occupying a seat on that train. All changing to counted place reservations does is create a bunfight at the origin station (see the stampede at Euston for LM services for further details), to the detriment of anyone who has mobility problems or young children, and mean that people boarding elsewhere won't get a seat.

On quiet trains it doesn't matter if AP ticket holders sit somewhere else, but on busy trains AP ticket holders are likely to take their reserved seat. The fact that you can now select exactly which seat you want means that you don't even have the excuse of people wanting a "better" seat for their journey.

Unused reservations are an issue with the holders of walk-up tickets who can take any train. They're not an issue with AP ticket holders, who are either on the train in a seat or they're not travelling at all.

 

[3141]

.... I do recall a couple of journeys where reservations were suspended, and in neither case was this announced on the platform before boarding the train....

This is an important point. I once travelled from Leeds to London in the days of National Express EC when the printer had broken down and so no reservation cards could be printed. At Leeds, Wakefield and Doncaster the train manager made an announcement about what had happened and told people there were no reservations. For the rest of the journey, when there was much more of a problem with people joining the train expecting a reserved seat and finding they hadn't got one and there were no seats left, there were no announcements. It really is important to keep passengers informed about any changes to the normal pattern of events.

 

[boxy321]

This is an important point. I once travelled from Leeds to London in the days of National Express EC when the printer had broken down and so no reservation cards could be printed. At Leeds, Wakefield and Doncaster the train manager made an announcement about what had happened and told people there were no reservations. For the rest of the journey, when there was much more of a problem with people joining the train expecting a reserved seat and finding they hadn't got one and there were no seats left, there were no announcements. It really is important to keep passengers informed about any changes to the normal pattern of events.

Like when a late Euston train pulled in to platform 3 at Coventry one morning? At 7:20 me and about another 50 people rushed to catch the train and ended up at Milton Keynes by mistake as 99% of the time the Birmingham train stops at platform 3 at 7:22 every day. There were no announcements about anything until we were already moving.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is an important point. I once travelled from Leeds to London in the days of National Express EC when the printer had broken down and so no reservation cards could be printed. At Leeds, Wakefield and Doncaster the train manager made an announcement about what had happened and told people there were no reservations. For the rest of the journey, when there was much more of a problem with people joining the train expecting a reserved seat and finding they hadn't got one and there were no seats left, there were no announcements. It really is important to keep passengers informed about any changes to the normal pattern of events.

I think there need to be notices dotted around all coaches as follows:

RESERVATIONS

In the event that reservation cards have not been placed on this train / the electronic seat reservation system is showing a blank display, seat reservations do not apply and passengers should sit in any available seat in the correct class shown on your ticket. If no seats are available, passengers should contact the Guard for advice.

 

[bb21]

I think there need to be notices dotted around all coaches as follows:

RESERVATIONS

It will never work.

Many passengers in this country are too busy minding their own business to notice things like this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It will never work.

Many passengers in this country are too busy minding their own business to notice things like this.

At least the aggrieved party in any dispute can point to it and say "read that".

It's a bit like the French habit of having notices saying "in the event of dispute, the window is to be closed".

 

[Bellbell]

We've been through this, I genuinely don't understand the logic.

AP ticket holders must be on the train, therefore they must be occupying a seat on that train. All changing to counted place reservations does is create a bunfight at the origin station (see the stampede at Euston for LM services for further details), to the detriment of anyone who has mobility problems or young children, and mean that people boarding elsewhere won't get a seat.

On quiet trains it doesn't matter if AP ticket holders sit somewhere else, but on busy trains AP ticket holders are likely to take their reserved seat. The fact that you can now select exactly which seat you want means that you don't even have the excuse of people wanting a "better" seat for their journey.

Unused reservations are an issue with the holders of walk-up tickets who can take any train. They're not an issue with AP ticket holders, who are either on the train in a seat or they're not travelling at all.

Yes, it would create an issue for people with mobility problems or young children who also hold an AP, but not otherwise. Why would it mean people boarding elsewhere couldn't get a seat? Unless you're selling more AP because they're now only counted place?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why would it mean people boarding elsewhere couldn't get a seat?

The only rationale for getting rid of reservations is because some people with walk-up tickets (who didn't bother reserving a seat for free) can't find seats because they're all reserved.

Therefore, logically, getting rid of reservations means that ticket holders from further up the line (say, Peterborough) are going to struggle to get a seat because all the seats will be taken by people in London.

 

[Bellbell]

That's if you accept that that rationale IS the only reason for getting rid of reservations. And not, say, because it causes more problems during disruption. Or because many passengers appear too frightened to sit in a reserved seat even if it is not reserved until later in the journey (or they are not aware of the stations on the reservation coupon, relative to their own journey), leading to hordes standing in the vestibule while many seats are vacant.

Some (all?) trains have a limit to the number of seats that can be reserved that is lower than the total number of seats available on the train. So you could argue that removing automatic seat reservations from AP tickets makes it more likely that people buying non-AP fares closer to travel will be able to reserve seats. And not all AP holders board at the origin station although I do recognise and accept what you say about the stampede.

Anyway, thanks for the reply. I was more interested in the logic in your post than arguing against it, despite the above!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Better to make reservations a paid-for service. That way we don't have trains full of reserved seats that nobody uses, those who really want a reservation can pay for one, those who need one for various qualifying criteria get a free one, and if there are no reservations it's a free-for-all and you get the reservation fee refunded.

Or use the fully-reserved model, which wouldn't go down well with Barry Doe!

Reservations are a big source of stress for many passengers and, no doubt, staff - there has to be a better way.

the 'reservations not used' is becasue peopel will sometimes buy 2 or 3 advances becasue it;s still cheaper than off peak fares etc ...

 

[reb0118]

I agree with the principle, but not necessarily the price. Many of the journeys I make require two changes - that would be £12 to £15 extra on a return journey.

I believe that on the continent a single reservation fee can cover certain multiple leg journeys.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that on the continent a single reservation fee can cover certain multiple leg journeys.

Yes, a fee per direction rather than per leg could be charged.

 

[les.]

I have recently returned from The Scottish Highlands (Plockton) and on no less than 4 occasions reservations were not put out due to various reasons, train late arriving, printer broken down.

On 2 occasions we managed to get our actual reserved seats but on 2 occasions people were sat in them so we had to find alternate seats. This then caused a problem at Perth on the Edinburgh to Inverness train when a couple got on and produced their tickets to show that we were sat in their seats. We explained the situation to them but the man in particular got rather vocal, slamming his reservations on the table in front of us and calling us "ignorant people" as we refused to move. There was another table seat actually empty further down the carriage but because of his terrible attitiude decided to stay were we were.

On another occasion we boarded the train and and our seats were taken but as the conductor came round for the first time, he had the reserved tickets with him and was putting them out as he went through the train, which was a pit pointless and awkward really as we were now sat in seats showing reserved from a future stop. Luckily there were 2 seats just across the way which weren't reserved, so we moved to them.

It does seem to be becoming more of a problem really for one reason or another.

It does also amaze me the amount of seat reservations on some services that are just not used.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Doesn't all of this come down to systems / technology?

1 - We know the "putting a piece of paper to show a reservation" is outdated, unreliable (as it requires printers to be working) and time consuming. It is quite often just not done in the case of a short turn around time due to delays.

2 - Some other rolling stock have electronic systems, but these are often unreliable and poorly designed. Sometimes they simply don't have the data uploaded to them, sometimes they are off, quite often passengers walking through the carriage can't see right away if the seat is reserved or not (and even worse on XC they have to wait until the tiny display scrolls along).

3 - So why can't we just get a actual useful and reliable electronic system, designed so it is easy to see by a passenger walking through the carriage? Maybe using the WiFi access many new carriages have, or failing that the ability to connect to WiFi hotspots at stations (even smaller ones seem to be getting it put in now). We aren't talking about massive amounts of data here so it should easily be possible in the time a train is at a station for. Sure it wouldn't work 100% of the time, but it would be better than now!

the 'reservations not used' is becasue peopel will sometimes buy 2 or 3 advances becasue it;s still cheaper than off peak fares etc ...

And because some people with reservation will actually sit in other seats.

And because some people who get reservations with walk up tickets / season tickets aren't actually on the train they have a reservation for.

 

[lincolnshire]

I travelled on a TPE train from Manchester Picadilly to Cleethorpes quite a while since it arrived in the platform with about a 2 minute turn round, doors open passengers got off we gotten got on job. Was travelling with a suitcase, so case in rack and empty seat opposite and no labels on except labels from previous in bound journey on odd seat backs further down train ( this day no sevices between airport and Picadilly, rail replacement instead). So empty seat sat down and along comes two women these are our seats, my answer no seat reservation labels on them so sorry not moving leaving one seat empty. So one sits down the other stands and chunters a bit and keeps looking, I gave her my advice find a seat quick before every seat goes and sit in it as no labels no reservations on this train. So she left it too late and stood along with others all the way to Sheffield. No announcements about seat reservations or ticket checks all the way to Sheffield and standing passengers all the way to Sheffield too.

Travelling from Kings Cross going North an announcement should be made if you do not occupy your reserved seat within say 15 mins after departure then after this time seat reservation labels on empty seats from Kings Cross will be removed so passengers without reservations or getting on further along the journey will be able to find a seat. Its not as there is only the guard on the train these days, use the First Class host,s etc to do this work as it won,t take that long to go through the train and will make the passengers happy knowing they can sit in the seats quite legally without someone coming along and claiming them. No label on seat so not reserved and if you have paid full price to travel there and then it will make you a lot happier than a train full of seats reserved and not sure if someone is sitting there and they paid a lot less than you and might be on the next train instead.

 

[najaB]

3 - So why can't we just get a actual useful and reliable electronic system, designed so it is easy to see by a passenger walking through the carriage?

The class 80x trains will have just such a system. As I understand it, 'traffic lights' above the seats to indicate reserved/free and a small display to show the details.

 

[Master29]

Why moan about not enough seats being available. Book early and reserve a seat then end of...... I understand however sometimes unavoidable late journeys may be needed in some cases but I doubt this is true most of the time. The guy arguing about being kicked out of his seat at Wolverhampton is talking plain nonsense. Get a reservation. Simple aint it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why moan about not enough seats being available. Book early and reserve a seat then end of...... I understand however sometimes unavoidable late journeys may be needed in some cases but I doubt this is true most of the time. The guy arguing about being kicked out of his seat at Wolverhampton is talking plain nonsense. Get a reservation. Simple aint it.

No, it's not simple. I tried to book with reservations for a journey the weekend after next, and the trains are already full in both directions.

 

[cuccir]

+1 to the suggestion of a generic 'if there are no reservations' notice in carriages - it establishes the norm for people, which may not be clear to irregular travelers. It also gives people something to fall back on in the face of bullies.

+1 too to the suggestion that regular announcements are required to remind passengers. Ideally, screens at stations would display 'no reservations'.

The underlying problem is unreasonable behaviour from people when reservations fail. But the above would help people facing that behaviour, either making their journey more pleasant (encouraging them to return to the rail) or avoiding the need to get staff involved (saving staff time).

Reservations are useful and should be there for 'intercity' services, broadly defined. I'd tentatively support the idea of small charges for reservations with flexible tickets.

 

[PeterC]

I'd tentatively support the idea of small charges for reservations with flexible tickets.

Used to be the standard of course. Two shillings in the early 1960s so around the price of a pint.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

We've been through this, I genuinely don't understand the logic.

AP ticket holders must be on the train, therefore they must be occupying a seat on that train. All changing to counted place reservations does is create a bunfight at the origin station (see the stampede at Euston for LM services for further details), to the detriment of anyone who has mobility problems or young children, and mean that people boarding elsewhere won't get a seat.

On quiet trains it doesn't matter if AP ticket holders sit somewhere else, but on busy trains AP ticket holders are likely to take their reserved seat. The fact that you can now select exactly which seat you want means that you don't even have the excuse of people wanting a "better" seat for their journey.

Unused reservations are an issue with the holders of walk-up tickets who can take any train. They're not an issue with AP ticket holders, who are either on the train in a seat or they're not travelling at all.

exceopt when 2 ( or more ) AP tickets is still cheaper than the walk up fare...