Progress of delivery of cascaded/refurbished/PRM modified stock to TFW/Wales and Borders

[animationmilo]

Don't count your chickens....

ooh so things might change again.

 

[craigybagel]

ooh so things might change again.

It's never really changed. The 170s are underused at the moment it's true, but there are no plans as yet to send them all somewhere else. The current plans being worked on for West Wales aren't really compatible with the use of 197s there in any case.

 

[Anonymous10]

Don't count your chickens....

assuming the 170s leave on sublease to another operator and going off the current fleets being taken by other operators ect as is common belief on this forum it seems the only outcome

 

[craigybagel]

assuming the 170s leave on sublease to another operator and going off the current fleets being taken by other operators ect as is common belief on this forum it seems the only outcome

Not for the first time, the common beliefs of this forum are wrong.

There are changes being looked at from the original plans for West Wales, but they don't feature a large scale use of 197s.

 

[Anonymous10]

Not for the first time, the common beliefs of this forum are wrong.

There are changes being looked at from the original plans for West Wales, but they don't feature a large scale use of 197s.

im assuming by this you work for tfw and thats all you can disclose?

 

[craigybagel]

im assuming by this you work for tfw and thats all you can disclose?

Correct on both counts.

 

[LowLevel]

EMR have inspected the 170s, what will actually happen though isn't certain as yet.

 

[yorkie]

im assuming by this you work for tfw and thats all you can disclose?

As this is an updates thread, let's wait for any news.

In the meantime, if anyone wishes to speculate, you are of course always welcome to post in the Speculative Ideas section

 

[Envoy]

It's never really changed. The 170s are underused at the moment it's true, but there are no plans as yet to send them all somewhere else. The current plans being worked on for West Wales aren't really compatible with the use of 197s there in any case.

If spare 170’s are lying around in Canton, why are some not sent to operate the Heart of Wales - yes, I know that crew would have to be trained. That would free up 150’s to operate in the south Wales valleys where over crowding on fine days is a real problem. (This is not speculation but on topic about the cascade of rolling stock).

Media Wales yesterday:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/busy-trains-transport-for-wales-20755852

As Wales has opened up with lockdown measures slowly being eased, passengers have noticed trains filling up quickly and aisles busy with people standing.

One passenger, Adam Smith from Newport, said he felt "anxious and nervous" after getting on a Transport for Wales (TfW) train back home from Barry Island on bank holiday Monday.

 

[PHILIPE]

If spare 170’s are lying around in Canton, why are some not sent to operate the Heart of Wales - yes, I know that crew would have to be trained. That would free up 150’s to operate in the south Wales valleys where over crowding on fine days is a real problem. (This is not speculation but on topic about the cascade of rolling stock).

170s are planned to work the Heart of Wales Line in the long term unless they disappear before then as talk suggests may happen. The route is predominantly worked by 153s rather than 150s although they frequently cover. They interchange with the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals which would entail Carmarthen, Shrewsbury and Crewe Depots training on them and, due to the current climate, unnecessary training is being avoided. Route gauging would also have to be carried out although that might not be a problem.

 

[Envoy]

170s are planned to work the Heart of Wales Line in the long term unless they disappear before then as talk suggests may happen. The route is predominantly worked by 153s rather than 150s although they frequently cover. They interchange with the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals which would entail Carmarthen, Shrewsbury and Crewe Depots training on them and, due to the current climate, unnecessary training is being avoided. Route gauging would also have to be carried out although that might not be a problem.

Many thanks for your swift response Philip. I really do wonder whether this Covid thing regarding training is being dragged out? The risk of 2 people in the cab for training is far less than all those members of the public being rammed into trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

Many thanks for your swift response Philip. I really do wonder whether this Covid thing regarding training is being dragged out? The risk of 2 people in the cab for training is far less than all those members of the public being rammed into trains.

The Unions have an input into COVID decisions such as this. TFW say they are following Welsh Government guidance

 

[sd0733]

170s are planned to work the Heart of Wales Line in the long term unless they disappear before then as talk suggests may happen. The route is predominantly worked by 153s rather than 150s although they frequently cover. They interchange with the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals which would entail Carmarthen, Shrewsbury and Crewe Depots training on them and, due to the current climate, unnecessary training is being avoided. Route gauging would also have to be carried out although that might not be a problem.

Chester would need training too as they have work on the Crewe locals, so pretty much everyone who currently doesnt sign them bar the North Wales coast depots.

 

[craigybagel]

Many thanks for your swift response Philip. I really do wonder whether this Covid thing regarding training is being dragged out? The risk of 2 people in the cab for training is far less than all those members of the public being rammed into trains.

It's not so much Covid that's stopping training these days - since this started TfW have managed to introduce 2 new fleets (769 and MKIV) and are working on a 3rd (230), as well as passing out some new trainee drivers as well, so training is still taking place.

The problem is that thanks to Covid there just isn't the availability of staff to do any more training without sacrificing service trains. Staff numbers are lower than they should be because it's taken much longer to get trainees to come through the system, there's still training on 230s and MKIVs taking place in the North and there's also a large amount of route learning that the newer drivers need to catch up on - so even the drivers who have qualified aren't as productive as they should be because they're limited on what they can be used on.

There just isn't the capacity to release lots more drivers for 170 training on top of everything else.

 

[sw1ller]

It's not so much Covid that's stopping training these days - since this started TfW have managed to introduce 2 new fleets (769 and MKIV) and are working on a 3rd (230), as well as passing out some new trainee drivers as well, so training is still taking place.

The problem is that thanks to Covid there just isn't the availability of staff to do any more training without sacrificing service trains. Staff numbers are lower than they should be because it's taken much longer to get trainees to come through the system, there's still training on 230s and MKIVs taking place in the North and there's also a large amount of route learning that the newer drivers need to catch up on - so even the drivers who have qualified aren't as productive as they should be because they're limited on what they can be used on.

There just isn't the capacity to release lots more drivers for 170 training on top of everything else.

Exactly this. On top of that too, there are drivers that have been off work long term (due to sickness or having had an incident) that have been off much longer than they would like, as there’s simply not the resources to get them out with a minder driver. It’s got to the situation at chester that only 9 people can sign a particular job due to the lack of training available to others. Nearly every train I pass at the moment has two people up front, it’s not about “dragging out” the covid “thing”. Everyone’s working so hard behind the scenes to get many projects up and running. Simply put, covid couldn’t have happened at a worse time for TfW.

 

[Scottish-Exile]

153 906 left Landore this morning as the first PRM Lite refurbished unit.

 

[The_Train]

153 906 left Landore this morning as the first PRM Lite refurbished unit.

View attachment 97863

Lovely shot
My records also have 153926 as being at Landore for the mod work - is that still the case please?

 

[Scottish-Exile]

Lovely shot
My records also have 153926 as being at Landore for the mod work - is that still the case please?

Yes along with 921

 

[The_Train]

Yes along with 921

Great stuff - I had 921 as having moved to Landore but for storage for some reason haha.
Thanks for the update

 

[Anonymous10]

153 906 left Landore this morning as the first PRM Lite refurbished unit.

View attachment 97863

may i enquire as to which pacer is in the back of the shot and as to what the prm lite mods entail

 

[Envoy]

Exactly this. On top of that too, there are drivers that have been off work long term (due to sickness or having had an incident) that have been off much longer than they would like, as there’s simply not the resources to get them out with a minder driver. It’s got to the situation at chester that only 9 people can sign a particular job due to the lack of training available to others. Nearly every train I pass at the moment has two people up front, it’s not about “dragging out” the covid “thing”. Everyone’s working so hard behind the scenes to get many projects up and running. Simply put, covid couldn’t have happened at a worse time for TfW.

Many thanks for the explanation - & ‘craigybagel’ as well. I had not realised that the situation was so tight regarding staffing.

 

[krus_aragon]

As this is an updates thread, let's wait for any news.

In the meantime, if anyone wishes to speculate, you are of course always welcome to post in the Speculative Ideas section

I've just created one such thread here:

How might TfW adapt their rolling stock plans post-Covid, now that they're acquiring additional MkIV rakes?​

​

 

[Cardiff123]

153 906 left Landore this morning as the first PRM Lite refurbished unit.

View attachment 97863

Great shot, thanks! Has the toilet been fully removed, or just permanently locked out of use?

 

[Scottish-Exile]

Great shot, thanks! Has the toilet been fully removed, or just permanently locked out of use?

Locked out of use.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Will that cover all of the Pic-Swansea diagrams? Because if not, there will be a very bizarre mixture of formations on there: Civities, which will be shiny and new but still commuter/regional DMUs at heart (and depending upon who you ask pretty bad ones), alongside rakes of Mk4s to proper intercity specification but almost 3 decades older.

197s are not even regional DMUs if you ask me, they are just plain commuter/suburban DMUs.

It's never really changed. The 170s are underused at the moment it's true, but there are no plans as yet to send them all somewhere else. The current plans being worked on for West Wales aren't really compatible with the use of 197s there in any case.

assuming the 170s leave on sublease to another operator and going off the current fleets being taken by other operators ect as is common belief on this forum it seems the only outcome

If I recall correctly the latest Modern Railways said that one TfW is confirmed to be going to EMR (or was it WMR?) on a short sublease - Modern Railways also said that the rest of the TfW 170s were expected to follow but neither operator would confirm that. So it's not just 'common belief on this forum' - it has also been reported in the railway press as a possibility - but the fact neither operator would confirm it (other than the one unit) does suggest that perhaps Modern Railways have got it wrong.

170s are planned to work the Heart of Wales Line in the long term unless they disappear before then as talk suggests may happen.

The TfW press release does say that “The investment in high-quality trains demonstrates we’re going above and beyond our original commitment to transform the Wales and Borders rail service and deliver a world-class service for our customers throughout our network, including on the Heart of Wales and west Wales where we’re upgrading our original plans.” (my bold). The 'original plans' for the HOWL and S.W. Wales is presumably refering to the 170s so this suggest that 170s are no longer the plan for those routes though in my opinion (apart from the availablity of gangways if multiple working is involved) 197s would not be an upgrade compared to 170s.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

230009 currently at Crewe P12 on a training run.

 

[craigybagel]

If I recall correctly the latest Modern Railways said that one TfW is confirmed to be going to EMR (or was it WMR?) on a short sublease - Modern Railways also said that the rest of the TfW 170s were expected to follow but neither operator would confirm that. So it's not just 'common belief on this forum' - it has also been reported in the railway press as a possibility - but the fact neither operator would confirm it (other than the one unit) does suggest that perhaps Modern Railways have got it wrong.

Anything is a possibility - and TfW have shown themselves from day one quite happy to find alternative solutions.

The TfW press release does say that “The investment in high-quality trains demonstrates we’re going above and beyond our original commitment to transform the Wales and Borders rail service and deliver a world-class service for our customers throughout our network, including on the Heart of Wales and west Wales where we’re upgrading our original plans.” (my bold). The 'original plans' for the HOWL and S.W. Wales is presumably refering to the 170s so this suggest that 170s are no longer the plan for those routes though in my opinion (apart from the availablity of gangways if multiple working is involved) 197s would not be an upgrade compared to 170s.

Well then I'm sure you'll be delighted to know that the new plan being looked at does not feature the use of 197s.

 

[Anonymous10]

Anything is a possibility - and TfW have shown themselves from day one quite happy to find alternative solutions.

Well then I'm sure you'll be delighted to know that the new plan being looked at does not feature the use of 197s.

i look forward to finding out whats coming for my local line

 

[craigybagel]

Exactly this. On top of that too, there are drivers that have been off work long term (due to sickness or having had an incident) that have been off much longer than they would like, as there’s simply not the resources to get them out with a minder driver. It’s got to the situation at chester that only 9 people can sign a particular job due to the lack of training available to others. Nearly every train I pass at the moment has two people up front, it’s not about “dragging out” the covid “thing”. Everyone’s working so hard behind the scenes to get many projects up and running. Simply put, covid couldn’t have happened at a worse time for TfW.

Ch370 & 371 I assume?

But yes, extra capacity would be lovely but extra training is pretty much physically impossible at this point, and I think some posters would do well to accept that fact.

 

[sw1ller]

Ch370 & 371 I assume?

But yes, extra capacity would be lovely but extra training is pretty much physically impossible at this point, and I think some posters would do well to accept that fact.

371 yes. Couple more sign 370 but that’s because more are on permanent earlies than perm lates. Well deduced, I’m impressed.