Promise to Pay - Is it valid on Merseyrail

[Bletchleyite]

A Penalty Fare covers you to the next station stop of the train you are on. If you want to continue on that train you must then purchase an Anytime (Day) Single/Return to do so, or alight and buy the ticket of your choice for the next train.

 

[HSP 2]

Leaving aside the dubious legality of the Promise to Pay (covered in depth elsewhere), the wording quoted says nothing about paying the full fare and having the penalty fare added on top - it is this I was interested in seeing a source for.

A Penalty Fare covers you to the next station stop of the train you are on. If you want to continue on that train you must then purchase an Anytime (Day) Single/Return to do so, or alight and buy the ticket of your choice for the next train.

As I have said my wording could have been better. But I'm sure that I been told that, I will check next time I'm down the station.

It does not say that on the token all it says about time is you have up to four hours on the day of issue. Or a member of staff on the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I have said my wording could have been better. But I'm sure that I been told that, I will check next time I'm down the station.

It does not say that on the token all it says about time is you have up to four hours on the day of issue. Or a member of staff on the train.

My post referred to Penalty Fares, as per the question it answered, not Promise to Pay tokens. Penalty Fares are incurred under the Penalty Fares Rules which can be looked up online.

 

[joke2711]

So I have just received my reply from Merseyrail;

Thank you for contacting us.

I am sorry to learn about the recent difficulties you had with us. Your comments have been forwarded to our Area Revenue Protection Manager. Although you have not told us the date of travel or your interchange station to our network, she has done her best to find out what took place. She assures me that it is not our intention to upset genuine customers such as yourself, but we do need to understand why customers do not have a ticket and she is satisfied that her staff followed the correct procedure.

We do understand that you could not purchase your ticket at your origin station, and, as such, obtained a promise to pay ticket. In such circumstances, customers are asked to purchase their ticket either on the train or at interchange stations if there is sufficient time or if not at your destination. Our understanding is that all Northern Rail services that operate into our stations do have conductors on board who sell tickets. While we do not know your first interchange station, this would only have had a minimum of 5 minutes between trains and we do also understand that if your train was late you may have had time to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity. However, Liverpool Central has 10 minutes for connecting time, and while very much understanding this would have inconvenienced you, we do feel this would have been sufficient time for you to purchase your ticket rather than as you indicate changing directly to the Wirral Line without visiting the booking office or passing through the ticket gates.

Our Area Revenue Protection Manager feels that in the circumstances, the Revenue Protection Officer used their discretion wisely without taking any further action and the advice was given in good faith. Our Officers do only issue tickets for our own network and for all other tickets will direct customers to return to a booking office.

We are very grateful for your feedback about this issue, we don’t wish to upset any customer, and it is important we do comply with the conditions of this ticket and we are consistent in our approach. We will monitor this.

Once again please do accept my apologies for the inconvenience and upset caused, this was not our intention.

So there is a concession that I don't have to delay my Journey at Kirkby however they so seem to indicate that i should exit at Liverpool Central and buy a ticket if I haven't been able to buy one from a Northern Guard.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

(quoting a Merseyrail response)


I am sorry to learn about the recent difficulties you had with us. Your comments have been forwarded to our Area Revenue Protection Manager. Although you have not told us the date of travel or your interchange station to our network, she has done her best to find out what took place. She assures me that it is not our intention to upset genuine customers such as yourself, but we do need to understand why customers do not have a ticket and she is satisfied that her staff followed the correct procedure.

We do understand that you could not purchase your ticket at your origin station, and, as such, obtained a promise to pay ticket. In such circumstances, customers are asked to purchase their ticket either on the train or at interchange stations if there is sufficient time or if not at your destination. Our understanding is that all Northern Rail services that operate into our stations do have conductors on board who sell tickets. While we do not know your first interchange station, this would only have had a minimum of 5 minutes between trains and we do also understand that if your train was late you may have had time to purchase a ticket at the first opportunity. However, Liverpool Central has 10 minutes for connecting time, and while very much understanding this would have inconvenienced you, we do feel this would have been sufficient time for you to purchase your ticket rather than as you indicate changing directly to the Wirral Line without visiting the booking office or passing through the ticket gates.

Our Area Revenue Protection Manager feels that in the circumstances, the Revenue Protection Officer used their discretion wisely without taking any further action and the advice was given in good faith. Our Officers do only issue tickets for our own network and for all other tickets will direct customers to return to a booking office.

We are very grateful for your feedback about this issue, we don’t wish to upset any customer, and it is important we do comply with the conditions of this ticket and we are consistent in our approach. We will monitor this.

Once again please do accept my apologies for the inconvenience and upset caused, this was not our intention.

Are Merseyrail revenue protection really limited to only selling tickets on the Merseyrail network? And can someone confirm that 10 minutes is the minimum allowed connection at Liverpool Central? I think it probably is, in that NRE allows 24 minutes between the train arriving from Kirby to get the train to West Kirkby, so presumably a 9 minute connection is too short.

But assuming that Merseyrail are right on those points, I have to say that I think their position is reasonable. 10 minutes (if that is the minimum connection) might be tight to take the opportunity to buy a ticket at Central, but not (in my opinion) unreasonably so. The booked 24 minute connection is certainly adequate - although I imagine most people would hope to make the unofficial 9 minute connection rather than the official one that is a quarter of an hour longer.

 

[gray1404]

What a lip service give on one hand, take back with the other reply.

Are Merseyrail correct that you didn't give Merseyrail your date of travel or the names of all stations involved in the journey? Really? It really is so important when asking a TOC to address a situation that they have all the information.....

At the same time, Merseyrail have understood the issue of the 10 minute interchange time at Liverpool Central. In essence they are saying that you should have missed the next train to West Kirkby and that anything under 10 minutes is not valid and you should miss it. This is so far from the truth. I would therefore be inclined to write back to them addressing the additional concerns. What is concerning is that they have said that their staff acted correctly. This is typical of Merseyrail to always say their Manager feels their staff acted correctly.

I think you need to get back in touch with them informing them that they are incorrect that you must delay your journey at Liverpool Central and only catch a train departing after 10 minutes. However, it is important that you give them all the required information so that they have the full information relating to the complaint. It means it is more likely for the Ombudsman to uphold your complaint later.

If Merseyrail still continue to give out incorrect information and do now provide assurances that you will not be inconvenienced adversely in the future, then I would take the matter to the Rail Ombudsman.

I see in your case you only had 9 minutes to change trains. The minimum interchange time is 10 minutes and that does not allow any time for you to get a ticket, just changing trains. Merseyrail are in effect saying that you should have caught the train 24 minutes after your arrival time. At the same time some would say 9 minutes was enough time to get off at the Northern line, go upstairs to the ticket barrier, possibly have to explain why you didn't have a ticket and be let you, then join the que at the booking office (given they are also a convenience store there can be quite a wait in there) and then go back through the ticket barrier (ticket might not have worked the barrier as issued from Rainford) then down to the other platforms for the West Kirkby service. With all this in mind, 9 minutes is not long enough at all (neither would 10). So they are, as usual, talking a load of rubbish.

Customers are not required to only be allowed to take official connections, even if they don't have a ticket, they can proceed to the next available train.

 

[WesternLancer]

At least this is an effort at a genuine reply that attempts to address the circs - rather than a cut and paste irrelevant response that is all too common these days. So I do feel that one could politely write back in the way that gray1404 suggests.

 

[thejuggler]

Minimum connection times are for when you are already in possession of a valid ticket and are there to allow enough time to change platform.

If you have no ticket you do not have to delay your journey if you arrive in time to get the next service, which does not have to be after the minimum connection time. It may be simply walking across the platform and take seconds.

Sounds like Merseyrail need reminding of this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Customers are not required to only be allowed to take official connections, even if they don't have a ticket, they can proceed to the next available train.

I am not sure I agree. There is nothing to stop you taking an earlier train if you have a ticket, but if you don't you do have time to get one if you have arrived with more than the minimum connection time available to the next train after that.

 

[gray1404]

So you are saying a customer should let a train go and miss the next train in order to purchase a ticket?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you are saying a customer should let a train go and miss the next train in order to purchase a ticket?

If you only would have caught that train because you were lucky, and not because it complied, in the timetable, with the minimum connection time for that station, yes, both I and Merseyrail are saying that.

You would not be required to miss a train that complied with the minimum connection time.

A train that does not comply is not a "connecting train" by definition, and so the term "connecting train" cannot be seen to apply to it. If you catch it, lucky you, but your entitlement to do so is not protected.

 

[najaB]

If you only would have caught that train because you were lucky, and not because it complied, in the timetable, with the minimum connection time for that station, yes, both I and Merseyrail are saying that.

If you caught it because either the arriving train was early or the departing train was late, then I'd agree. But if they were both on time then I'd say you would be within your rights to catch the second train.

For example, if it was a cross-platform connection with the other train at the platform, with doors open then it would be unreasonable to expect a passenger to go looking for a ticket booth just because the station has a 10 minute minimum connection time.

 

[joke2711]

At Liverpool Central there is a down escalator only from the Northern Line platform to Wirral Line Platform and the interchange time is 2 minutes maximum. It is at this point when revenue blocks are undertaken. The train arrives from Kirkby at 0746 and the next departure is 0755 to West Kirby.

I can not see how it would be possible to leave the Northern Line platform to go to the barriers .. explain that you needed to purchase a ticket, queue at the shop, proceed through the barriers again and then travel down 2 long sets of escalators to catch this 0755 service.

The journey planner states that on arrival at Liverpool Central I should be catching the 0810, which if I exited in the above way would be possible, however to me this is delaying my journey as I can easily catch the earlier service.

Is there anything definitive that covers this?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there no longer an unpaid fares window onto the gated area? There always used to be.

 

[MikeWh]

If you only would have caught that train because you were lucky, and not because it complied, in the timetable, with the minimum connection time for that station, yes, both I and Merseyrail are saying that.

This attitude is so anti-customer. If the railway can't provide the means to sell my ticket before the journey starts then it cannot inconvenience me during the journey because of that fact. If a connection is doable because an all encompassing minimum connection time is overkill for the specific case then it is perfectly valid to use it. Indeed, making a connection more often than not might swing the balance in favour of the train over the car. If the railway wants to get silly about it I'll use my car instead and they'll get nothing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This attitude is so anti-customer. If the railway can't provide the means to sell my ticket before the journey starts then it cannot inconvenience me during the journey because of that fact. If a connection is doable because an all encompassing minimum connection time is overkill for the specific case then it is perfectly valid to use it. Indeed, making a connection more often than not might swing the balance in favour of the train over the car. If the railway wants to get silly about it I'll use my car instead and they'll get nothing.

I do see your point, though I do also see the railway's point and to be honest am in favour of a move away from cash payment anyway (but that's a bit OT here).

In any case, unless the OP is infirm or of limited mobility 9 minutes is tons of time to get up top and buy a ticket. 9 minutes is enough to make a connection on foot from Lime St, let alone within Central. I'd bet that in most cases the OP is standing on the platform at Central for a good 7 minutes of that at least.

 

[joke2711]

I do see your point, though I do also see the railway's point and to be honest am in favour of a move away from cash payment anyway (but that's a bit OT here).

In any case, unless the OP is infirm or of limited mobility 9 minutes is tons of time to get up top and buy a ticket. 9 minutes is enough to make a connection on foot from Lime St, let alone within Central. I'd bet that in most cases the OP is standing on the platform at Central for a good 7 minutes of that at least.

My mobility is fine for my age, but I question that 9 minutes at peak time is "tons of time to get up top and buy a ticket".
I would have to travel up the escalators at platform ends, walk to barrier, explain why i haven't got a ticket (probably encounter revenue), walk into the shop and queue, buy said ticket, go through barriers again and then down two lengthy sets of escalators to Wirral Line.

By using the short cut from Northern to Wirral, I typically arrive just as the New Brighton train is due .. so 5 minutes before West Kirby train departs.

 

[gray1404]

I do not believe 9 minutes is enough at 9 minutes is not tons of time to get up top of buy a ticket. The Merseyrail office at my local station was closed one Sunday afternoon and, on arriving at Liverpool Central I had to explain myself, my intent to pay for my journey, at the ticket barrier to two persons. The second one took a good 10 seconds to think about what I'd said before saying he would "let me off this time but I needed to go to the ticket office to pay." I then stood in the que for about 5 minutes before paying. So from getting off the train to having the ticket in my hand took about 7 minutes. Certainly not then enough time to have been able to get back to one of the platforms within another 2.

The problem here is simple. Northern should have either enabled the OP to pay by cash before boarding at their TVM, failing that sold the ticket on the train. As that didn't happen, Merseyrail had to allow the OP to continue their journey until they are afforded a reasonable opportunity to pay. There wasn't enough time at Kirkby or within the 9 minutes until the next train at Liverpool Central. However, the OP was able to pay Merseyrail for the entire journey upon arrival at West Kirkby. So no problem!

In fact Merseyrail will also get the commission from the sale which they wouldn't have got had Northern sold the ticket, so they are better off. I am also sure that if the OP had have just missed the next train to West Kirkby and had to wait 15 minutes for the next, they would then have gone up stairs to get their ticket as they'd have had enough time. At no point did the OP demonstrate any intent to not pay their fare. In fact they bothered to get a "promise to pay" despite them not being 100% legal and offered up their fare at the first opportunity to the RPI.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Merseyrail is my local network. I know what times trains leave my local station towards Liverpool and I know roughly how long the journey takes. However, I, and I imagine the vast majority of passengers, do not know the trains' exact scheduled arrival times into Liverpool Central or Moorfields, or what the official minimum connection time at those stations is. If I was forced to travel without a ticket because I could not buy one at my origin, I wouldn't be inconveniencing myself by missing a perfectly doable onward connection in order to buy a ticket. I'd buy at my destination. The average passenger cannot reasonably be expected to make the time calculations as some have suggested above, to see if they are "allowed" to take an onward connection.

 

[joke2711]

I have just replied asking for clarification based on @gray1404 comments and will again update you once I have a reply.
I have to add that after reading the NRCoT, it didn't provide the clarification, but the original promise to pay does state that "if you cannot purchase a ticket on the train .. you should buy at your destination" .. and as Liverpool Central is not my destination, I strongly believe that I was within my rights to catch the next available service ...

 

[gray1404]

Thanks for the update. If Merseyrail fob you off again I would take this matter to the Rail Ombudsman. You have done nothing wrong here whatsoever. I notice they have not applogised for the fact you were incorrectly told by the RPI that he would be within his rights to issue a Penalty Fare. Had he done so it most certainly would have been in breach of the penalty fare regulations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the update. If Merseyrail fob you off again I would take this matter to the Rail Ombudsman. You have done nothing wrong here whatsoever. I notice they have not applogised for the fact you were incorrectly told by the RPI that he would be within his rights to issue a Penalty Fare. Had he done so it most certainly would have been in breach of the penalty fare regulations.

It will be interesting to see what comes back in response to this, but I'm still unconvinced that you are entitled to catch a train that does not comply with the minimum connection if you have not got a ticket already. That is, the OP in fact had 24 minutes to purchase a ticket, which would be plenty.

 

[gray1404]

The OP didn't have 24 minutes. They only had 9.

Are you saying then that a passenger is required to delay their journey and let a train go when they haven't had opportunity to purchase yet?

I thought is was a well established principle that passengers who have not been afforded opportunity to purchase are not required to delay their journey at interchange stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The OP didn't have 24 minutes. They only had 9.

Are you saying then that a passenger is required to delay their journey and let a train go when they haven't had opportunity to purchase yet?

I thought is was a well established principle that passengers who have not been afforded opportunity to purchase are not required to delay their journey at interchange stations.

What is unclear is whether that 9 minutes counts or not, because it is below the minimum connection at that station. Therefore their journey is not being delayed - it continues, as a journey planner will tell you, 24 minutes after they arrived.

Sure, you can jump on an earlier train if you happen to get there earlier, nobody will stop you, but the connection you are entitled to is the one at 24 minutes, in this case. If you catch it, your journey is not delayed.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The OP didn't have 24 minutes. They only had 9.

Are you saying then that a passenger is required to delay their journey and let a train go when they haven't had opportunity to purchase yet?

I thought is was a well established principle that passengers who have not been afforded opportunity to purchase are not required to delay their journey at interchange stations.

Although I am rather changing my position, I've got some sympathy for this view. My understanding of the minimum connection time is that it's just that - the minimum time you should allow to make a connection. The time you should leave to make a connection is not necessarily the same as the time you should leave to buy a ticket at an interchange station. But NRCoT tells us that

6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies: (...)

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a Ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.

(source - NRCoT from 4th December 2019)

The 'Information' section doesn't say anything about meeting the minimum connection time, or (perhaps the same thing) following an itinerary issued by NRE or some other reputable source - just whether there is sufficient time before the connecting service. So to apply this to the current case, nine minutes is undoubtedly long enough for someone with reasonable mobility to make a Northern/Wirral connection at Central (despite the published minimum time apparently being ten minutes) but I can see the strength of the argument that taking the longer route by way of the ticket hall, and having to queue for a ticket, may not be possible in nine minutes.

As well as this, I don't like the idea of a rule based on something as hard to find or define as the minimum connection time. As I've explained up thread, I am assuming a 10 minute minimum connection at Liverpool Central from the fact that nine minutes is considered inadequate and 24 minutes adequate. But (except for the fact that this conclusion would be silly) a minimum connection time of 23 minutes would also pass the test of rejecting 9 and accepting 24. And off the top of my head, I'm not sure where one would find a definition of what the 'minimum connection time' is, and what it's for. This all feels rather too obscure to base something on that might end up being used to prosecute someone for fare-dodging. If we, as people who take an active interest in how railways and their rules work, cannot clearly define the critical values, how is an ordinary member of the public meant to comply?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we, as people who take an active interest in how railways and their rules work, cannot clearly define the critical values, how is an ordinary member of the public meant to comply?

The answer to this (and I know it presents its own issues) is "use a journey planner". If the OP did this, they would be given the 24 minute connection which is plenty of time to buy a ticket (and having done so, pop out and get a Maccy D's to stink the train out with, or a swift half in the pub opposite and a wee before boarding).

I do think this needs formally clarifying one way or the other.

 

[joke2711]

The answer to this (and I know it presents its own issues) is "use a journey planner". If the OP did this, they would be given the 24 minute connection which is plenty of time to buy a ticket (and having done so, pop out and get a Maccy D's to stink the train out with, or a swift half in the pub opposite and a wee before boarding).

I do think this needs formally clarifying one way or the other.

I think that at 0750 in the morning I would decline the quick half ... would probably end up losing my job
Mind you .. then I wouldn't have this concern.

If I was travelling Wirral to Northern Lines then the 10 minute connection at Liverpool Central would be required. The problem seems that as they have a shortcut from Northern to Wirral lines (one way only) then the connection can be made in a couple of minutes. I am always going to catch the earlier train .. and I again i reiterate that the promise to pay states pay at destination .. and Liverpool Central isn't my destination.

If I hadn't obtained a P2P at Rainford, then I think that you are right in your minimum connection times applying, however as the promise to pay states that I should pay on-board or at destination .. then I do think I have fully complied.

 

[Bletchleyite]

FWIW you can also do a quick connection the other way - use the lift. Works at Lime St too. I love the look on the faces of the RPIs who often hang around there (as it's a fare dodger's paradise, bypassing as it does the ticket barriers) when I show them a valid ticket. They genuinely look disappointed.

I suspect, though, that it is how it is because it makes more sense from the vast majority of Northern Line stations to change at Moorfields if going Northern->Wirral, because you will make an earlier connecting train. The only ones where that doesn't apply is from the south which must be a tiny minority of journeys. LSP probably means more than there used to be, that said, I bet nobody walked from Allerton to Garston as a connection even if it wasn't very far, and hardly anything on the mainline stopped there or at Hunts X anyway.

 

[gray1404]

Even if you didn't have the promise to pay, it would make no difference. The OP would still have acted correctly in their actions. P2P notices have zero legal standing.

If coming from the Northern (from Southport) to Wirral line, it is best to change at Liverpool Central because it gives your connecting train more time to get around the loop, thus catching a train you might otherwise missed if you change at Moorfields.

Going from the Wirral to Northern line (towards Southport) I change at Moorfields as going around the loop to Central will take longer. (Despite being able to jump in the life at Central for a quick way).

 

[joke2711]

So I have received another reply from Merseyrail and I quote the relevant section ...

"We understand that all Northern services serving any of our stations do have a member of staff that can issue tickets- and you had then passed through 2 of our stations where a ticket could have been purchased, we certainly do not wish to cause any inconvenience to any customer which is why the Revenue Protection Officer acted as they did. Our Area Revenue Protection Manager has spoken to her colleagues at Northern, who confirm that the promise to pay permit is a Northern only product, unlike the separate permit to travel you refer to, and is not valid for wider journeys on the national rail network be it with ourselves or other train operators. I understand that Northern are looking at the relevant wording on the ticket so customers are fully aware of the validity of this ticket.

As such we will continue to remind customers that this ticket is not valid on our network and that a Penalty Fare may be issued in these circumstances".

So according to Merseyrail the "Promise to Pay" is not valid on their network and I do have to break my journey .. probably at Kirkby as this is the first interchange station where I can purchase a ticket. However, this station also has a connection time of 6 minutes from Northern to Merseyrail and it is unlikely that i will meet that connection .. even on the occasions that the Northern service runs to time.

Is it now a referral to the Ombudsman .. or do I just live with a fragmented policy and potential delays to my commute??