Proposal for replacement swing bridge at Trowse, Norwich

[IanXC]

Can't see that this has been mentioned on the forum as yet, apologies if it has!

Any views of thoughts from local members? Almost sounds too good to be true to me.

Crucial studies are under way which could finally see the replacement of a bottleneck rail bridge, which slows down trains and hampers plans for thousands of homes on the edge of Norwich. The Trowse swing bridge is seen as key to ambitious plans to regenerate areas to the east of Norwich - and work is under way to build up the case to attract funding for its replacement.

The railway line over the bridge, which opens to allow access to the historic port of Norwich - established by an Act of Parliament - is single track, but studies are exploring whether that could be made double track, with Trowse junction remodelled. That would improve capacity - and speed - of trains to Norwich, but also enable easier access to development areas, such as the Deal Ground and Utilities site. Those areas, along with the former Colman's site at Carrow Works and the former May Gurney site are part of what is known as the East Norwich Vision.

Breakthrough hopes over bottleneck bridge which slows trains and holds up homes

Crucial studies are under way which could finally see the replacement of a bottleneck rail bridge, which slows down trains and hampers...

www.eveningnews24.co.uk

 

[Tio Terry]

In many ways, I'm amazed. Not by the proposals for the bridge, but that they are going to build on what are Ley Meadows. I spent much of my early days in and around that area, I used to help drive cattle from the pens by the railway in Trowse Yard up to the original cattle market in Norwich City Centre. Those meadows by the river used to flood every year, why ever would anyone want to build on them?

If the bridge is to be replaced with a fixed span, then 4 track it so that the Cambridges and the Londons can be kept separate all the way to the station!

 

[TheEdge]

In many ways, I'm amazed. Not by the proposals for the bridge, but that they are going to build on what are Ley Meadows. I spent much of my early days in and around that area, I used to help drive cattle from the pens by the railway in Trowse Yard up to the original cattle market in Norwich City Centre. Those meadows by the river used to flood every year, why ever would anyone want to build on them?

If the bridge is to be replaced with a fixed span, then 4 track it so that the Cambridges and the Londons can be kept separate all the way to the station!

I don't quite know why they want to build there but developers do develop in the stupidest of places.

It would be brilliant to see it fixed and doubled as it really is a real bottleneck. Not quite sure how or why you'd want to quad it from Trowse Junction to the station. There isn't the space at Trowse loop for 4 lines, there isn't the space to work an extra pair of lines in around Wensum Junction thanks to Crown Point and the station throat is only 3 lines anyway.

 

[59CosG95]

I don't quite know why they want to build there but developers do develop in the stupidest of places.

It would be brilliant to see it fixed and doubled as it really is a real bottleneck. Not quite sure how or why you'd want to quad it from Trowse Junction to the station. There isn't the space at Trowse loop for 4 lines, there isn't the space to work an extra pair of lines in around Wensum Junction thanks to Crown Point and the station throat is only 3 lines anyway.

Indeed. To me, the option that makes most sense would be to convert Trowse Jn into a double ladder so that trains on the Up Thetford don't block those on the Down Thetford (perhaps utilising the D&UPL, in whole or in part) and plain-lining Lakenham crossover. But that of course ranges into crayonism...

 

[TheEdge]

Indeed. To me, the option that makes most sense would be to convert Trowse Jn into a double ladder so that trains on the Up Thetford don't block those on the Down Thetford (perhaps utilising the D&UPL, in whole or in part) and plain-lining Lakenham crossover. But that of course ranges into crayonism...

That is true, the single lead of Trowse Junction is a silly bottleneck as well. Not sure if you'd be able to slot in a double ladder along with the access to Victoria Sidings, the bridge supports of the Bracondale bridge and the south end of the loop. As to utilising the loop its fairly essential in the shunting movements for the Tarmac depot. Lakenham crossover does get used a fair bit and maybe more now we are able to start back towards Diss from Trowse Loop when leaving Victoria Sidings.

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Perhaps any new bridge will actually work as designed. I don't think the current one has ever!

 

[Wychwood93]

Perhaps any new bridge will actually work as designed. I don't think the current one has ever!

That probably answers the question I was going to ask - how often does the bridge actually do what it is intended for?

 

[dk1]

Perhaps any new bridge will actually work as designed. I don't think the current one has ever!

It no longer swings & any replacement will be a fixed affair. The last large vessel to be moved (a cadet training ship) passed through this & Carrow Road bridge a couple of years ago. No need for the Wensum to be navigable to large craft anymore.

 

[Tio Terry]

I don't quite know why they want to build there but developers do develop in the stupidest of places.

It would be brilliant to see it fixed and doubled as it really is a real bottleneck. Not quite sure how or why you'd want to quad it from Trowse Junction to the station. There isn't the space at Trowse loop for 4 lines, there isn't the space to work an extra pair of lines in around Wensum Junction thanks to Crown Point and the station throat is only 3 lines anyway.

I wasn't really being serious!

But it would move what was Trowse Lower Junction to Thorpe Junction so avoiding the clash between the Up and Dn Main and the Up and Dn Branch before you get to what was Thorpe Junction and Norwich Thorpe Station.

It no longer swings & any replacement will be a fixed affair. The last large vessel to be moved (a cadet training ship) passed through this & Carrow Road bridge a couple of years ago. No need for the Wensum to be navigable to large craft anymore.

I wonder if the same could ever apply to Reedham? Doubt it as there are quite a few tall masted pleasure vessels that use the river.

 

[Ianno87]

I wasn't really being serious!

But it would move what was Trowse Lower Junction to Thorpe Junction so avoiding the clash between the Up and Dn Main and the Up and Dn Branch before you get to what was Thorpe Junction and Norwich Thorpe Station.



I wonder if the same could ever apply to Reedham? Doubt it as there are quite a few tall masted pleasure vessels that use the river.

Reedham does get swung very regularly in summer months.

 

[dk1]

I wonder if the same could ever apply to Reedham? Doubt it as there are quite a few tall masted pleasure vessels that use the river.

Wouldn't that just be a dream? Tell all the arrogant/lazy boaties that they have to lower the mast. Would save rail delays.

 

[Ianno87]

Wouldn't that just be a dream? Tell all the arrogant/lazy boaties that they have to lower the mast. Would save rail delays.

In summer months, it's possible that the number of boaters outweigh the number of rail passengers...

 

[dk1]

In summer months, it's possible that the number of boaters outweigh the number of rail passengers...

Not of the arrogant tall mast variety.

 

[Bald Rick]

The idea of fixing the bridge and making it double track is old news. It’s been looked at a few times. It certainly won’t increase the speed, and it really isn’t that much of a constraint on capacity, as we have discussed before. What it does do is remove a constraint on the timetable, which makes it easier to schedule trains around other constraints, which will remove pathing time here and there; it also will help a little in terms of reliability. But you certainly won’t be seeing a whole load of new services running - where would they go?

Perhaps any new bridge will actually work as designed. I don't think the current one has ever!

It has - I’ve swung it!

Reedham does get swung very regularly in summer months.

Swung that too

 

[Gloster]

Wouldn't that just be a dream? Tell all the arrogant/lazy boaties that they have to lower the mast. Would save rail delays.

Many yachts, even some quite small ones, have masts that can’t be lowered. One the very rare occasions that they have to pass under a low bridge, the mast has to be first lifted out with a crane.

 

[dk1]

Many yachts, even some quite small ones, have masts that can’t be lowered. One the very rare occasions that they have to pass under a low bridge, the mast has to be first lifted out with a crane.

I would imagine their inland use is quite inflexible.

 

[65477]

I have a memory of once reading that due to the design of the Trowse bridge it contained the steepest (although shortest) gradient on the main line in the UK. Was this true and if so what was the gradient?

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a memory of once reading that due to the design of the Trowse bridge it contained the steepest (although shortest) gradient on the main line in the UK. Was this true and if so what was the gradient?

It has to be level, otherwise it woudn’t swing! Or more accurately, once it had swung, it would be difficult to get it back.

 

[65477]

Y

It has to be level, otherwise it woudn’t swing! Or more accurately, once it had swung, it would be difficult to get it back.

Sorry if question was not clear - I think the gradient reference was not in regard to the swing bridge itself but the track on the banks. It would also have referred to the pre electrification bridge.

 

[bspahh]

I think the gradient reference was not in regard to the swing bridge itself but the track on the banks. It would also have referred to the pre electrification bridge.

There is a report of a trip from 1979 here which mentions

Leaving Thorpe, we have to climb a 1 in 84 gradient on the line towards Norwich Victoria where there is a speed restriction of 40mph. The gradient gives the lie to the old belief that East Anglia is flat.

The first talk on that page was about the rebuild of the swing bridge.

2008 AGM

www.gersociety.org.uk

 

[Tio Terry]

There is a report of a trip from 1979 here which mentions

The first talk on that page was about the rebuild of the swing bridge.

2008 AGM

www.gersociety.org.uk

That's not near Trowse Swing Bridge, that is between what was Trowse Lower Junction and Trowse Upper Junction - both signalboxes gone now - and before Harford Viaduct where the London via Ipswich Branch crosses the London via Cambridge Mainline.

 

[dk1]

That's not near Trowse Swing Bridge, that is between what was Trowse Lower Junction and Trowse Upper Junction - both signalboxes gone now - and before Harford Viaduct where the London via Ipswich Branch crosses the London via Cambridge Mainline.

I used to cycle the circulars etc to Upper Jcn. Was only manned daytime Monday to Friday same as Trowse Yard box.

 

[edwin_m]

Y
Sorry if question was not clear - I think the gradient reference was not in regard to the swing bridge itself but the track on the banks. It would also have referred to the pre electrification bridge.

According to the Five Mile Diagram, approaching the bridge there is a "hump" of 1 in 100 up and the same gradient down, ending just at the bridge where it becomes 1 in 390 ascending for a short distance before flattening out. So if anything the bridge is in a dip.

 

[Elecman]

I have a memory of once reading that due to the design of the Trowse bridge it contained the steepest (although shortest) gradient on the main line in the UK. Was this true and if so what was the gradient?

Unlikely I though that honour is the Lickey Bank at 1 in 37ish

 

[59CosG95]

Unlikely I though that honour is the Lickey Bank at 1 in 37ish

I thought that was for steepest sustained gradient in the UK, whereas the old Trowse bridge might have had a point of inflexion steeper than that before shallowing out again.

 

[Tio Terry]

I used to cycle the circulars etc to Upper Jcn. Was only manned daytime Monday to Friday same as Trowse Yard box.

When I was still at school I used to visit most of the boxes around there, knew a lot of the signalmen, Geoffrey - who had lost an arm in a shunting accident and lived in the gate house at Eaton Crossing - and Harry, RDR, who lived in Wymondham, spring to mind. Spent some very happy times with them and learnt a lot about railways and signalling. It's what led to me joining BR back in 1964!

 

[HSTEd]

Wouldn't that just be a dream? Tell all the arrogant/lazy boaties that they have to lower the mast. Would save rail delays.

Or perhaps the railway could not promise things to it's passengers that it can't deliver.

The Act of Parliament the railway used to seize the land to build their railway requires them to allow boats to pass.
I don't see why the railway should be allowed to remove rights held by other people merely for operational convenience.

EDIT:

Also as far as I can see, there is a route from the sea to Reedham without passing under any fixed spans, which means that some vessels might not even be able to lower their masts.

 

[AndrewE]

The idea of fixing the bridge and making it double track is old news. It’s been looked at a few times.

Has the navigation been formally extinguished? If not, I suspect it will need an Act of Parliament to either do that first and / or to change the original Railway Act which presumably had to preserve for vessels.
p.s. overtaken by HSTEd's comment.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Act of Parliament the railway used to seize the land to build their railway requires them to allow boats to pass.

Indeed. Althogh the act says that the bridge must be opened on demand “except when engine or carriages shall be about to pass over...”. I’m not sure what the penalty is for not complying.

For one of the other swing bridges, possibly Oulton Broad, the penalty for not opening the bridge is £5 a day. I once proposed this was the cheapest way to deal with the situation.

Has the navigation been formally extinguished?

No. But in can be with an agreement with the broads authority.

 

[dk1]

When I was still at school I used to visit most of the boxes around there, knew a lot of the signalmen, Geoffrey - who had lost an arm in a shunting accident and lived in the gate house at Eaton Crossing - and Harry, RDR, who lived in Wymondham, spring to mind. Spent some very happy times with them and learnt a lot about railways and signalling. It's what led to me joining BR back in 1964!

Geoffrey Starling.

Has the navigation been formally extinguished? If not, I suspect it will need an Act of Parliament to either do that first and / or to change the original Railway Act which presumably had to preserve for vessels.
p.s. overtaken by HSTEd's comment.

AFAIK it's all done & dusted now. No need too swing anymore.