Proposal for TPE to serve Saltburn

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by SeanG, 14 Sep 2018.

  1. SeanG

    SeanG Member

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    Just seen this posted in the local press https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/direct-trains-saltburn-manchester-given-15149803 and heard a rumour through a contact at TPE last week.

     
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  3. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    At the point that TPE can actually run to Middlesbrough reliably without regularly spinning their services at Northallerton then this might be worth looking at. Until then? Fantasy.

    Also good to see a local MP knows how their service works before commenting on it:

    They, of course, don't block a platform as they go and reverse in Guisborough Junction. The only time they sit in a platform to turn around is if they're running so late there isn't time to do that reversal!

    I will concede that it may help Middlesbrough's capacity by not having to deal with the reversing move but it certainly isn't because a TPE blocks a platform!
     
  4. gordonthemoron

    gordonthemoron Established Member

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    Would it stop at Redcar too? Anywhere else?
     
  5. TBY-Paul

    TBY-Paul Member

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    Oh you lucky people, you'll be able to enjoy the delights of the Yorkshire coast with-out having to change at Middlesbrough, or will it just make it easier to cancel the service at Middlesbrough during times of disruption?

    Saltburn to Manchester given the green light
    www.gazettelive.co.uk
     
  6. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    That surely goes without saying? Non-stop Middlesbrough to Saltburn would be utterly crackers! Personally I would be angling for calls at Redcar Central, Marske and Saltburn (with an edge case for Redcar East).

    The minutes of the most recent meeting of TfN where this seems to have all shaken loose from aren't online (and I'd assume won't be until the next meeting in December?) however this news piece from the Tees Valley Combined Authority website about blocking TPE's proposed interim timetable in the North East ends with the following line:

    So I would say its safe to assume that they're after at least Redcar Central and Saltburn on any TPE extension.
     
  7. James90012

    James90012 Member

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    I'm really not clear what this is saying - who has given the 'green light' and what does that mean? Does it actually mean TfN have agreed to explore the case for an extension, or that TPE have agreed to provide it? There will be ramifications for TPE rolling stock never mind franchise finances.

    You're probably looking at a 50/55 minute round trip which needs to be resourced somehow.
     
  8. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Although even that seems to rely on what the signaller has had for breakfast that morning. Countless times i've seen a service terminate and the driver stay at the front awaiting the road with the guard peering down the platform only for him to turn around and see that the road has been given into the West Dock siding. Cue the driver scampering through the train to change ends.

    I don't think this will be possible once the loco-hauled arrives though, i'm not sure that siding is big enough?
     
  9. nr758123

    nr758123 Member

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    The first priority needs to be a reliable service on TPEs existing routes. Saltburn needs to wait until that has been achieved.
     
  10. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Agreed - nice idea but this comes out at the same time as the proposal to split a number of Middlesbrough - Leeds/Manchester services at York to deal with the terrible reliability of the existing service... I think that's the bigger priority in the meantime.

    Running TPE to Saltburn isn't the daftest idea I've seen on here - I've visited a number of times and think that it is one of the best bits of beach in the UK - wonderful place.

    The problem I have is the idea that this extension is "a way of getting units out of the way at Middlesbrough" - TPE only have about twenty minutes turn around time as it is, so the proposal would require an additional unit - let's focus on that in the first instance.
     
  11. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    A Northern service that does all the usual stops (i.e. excluding Redcar British Steel) is usually timetabled to do Middlesbrough - Saltburn - Middlesbrough (with around ten minutes turn around) in sixty-three minutes so you may as well call it a full hour. As it is currently TPE arrive at xx38 and then leave at xx55 so I suppose your not having to find a full extra hour only forty minutes but still. That's going to mean you're needing extra resources...
     
  12. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Since the timetable change I don't think I've seen TPE use West Dock at all (before then like you it did seem a bit of a toss up!). My suspicion is that this is preparation for the arrival of the Mk5s when, as you say, I don't think they'll fit anymore so will always have to reverse at Guisborough Junction.

    Quite! We really need to be delivering the timetabled service reliably before we start looking at extras. Particularly extras that will stress things even more than they already are by requiring extra resources and timetabling tweaks (Network Rail being renowned for having extra timetabling capacity at the moment :lol:).

    Agreed. It's been a local aspiration at various times over the years to at least extend to Redcar Central and if you're going there you may as well go to Saltburn. Whilst there's never a massive number of onward passengers (in my experience) I can well believe that many of them probably are going onto Redcar and/or Saltburn but just don't want to deal with changing onto Northern. A direct service may appeal to them and may also appeal to others as well (as it offers direct services to York and Leeds as well as Manchester).

    However, as we've both said, how about getting a timetable that works first before trying to stick things onto it!
     
  13. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    It happened on the last day of July but yes, it isn't anything like it used to be. It wasn't really explainable either, it was a late arrival but wasn't done to make way for anything and returned within 5 minutes. Possibly an issue with the points at Guisborough Junction, i've no idea.
     
  14. FelixtheCat

    FelixtheCat Member

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    I've had a go at looking into how it would fit around the current Tees Valley timetable. ~35 minute turn-back time, but it obviously requires the additional unit.
     

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  15. 4-SUB 4732

    4-SUB 4732 Member

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    It would appear to just be one morning journey up and one evening journey back. Likely scenario is the 05:43 or 06:22 off Middlesbrough coming from Saltburn as it would be an earlier first train and realistically enable an 08:00 arrival in Manchester; not sure how they'd make the return work. Two choices are to make it a 6 car 185 and split one off the back (I assume this is achievable with fleet slack when the Loco Hauled comes in on the Scarboroughs).
     
  16. BMIFlyer

    BMIFlyer Member

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    My opinion is that I don't believe this for a moment that it will be a passenger service.

    The actual proposal under discussion is that the Mk5A sets will run empty stock from Middlesbrough to Saltburn in order to clear the station at Middlesbrough on turn arounds and to avoid drivers climbing out of the loco and walking trackside to change ends if the train was to go elsewhere except a station to turn around.

    The proposal (service train or ECS) requires an extra Mk5A unit in order to achieve so in the meantime the possible plan is that one of the quiet diagrams from Man Air to Teesside will be a [double] 185 all day and the others will be loco sets.

    Nothing set in stone yet however - lots of stuff to sort out first.

    This report is the first I've heard of the proposed stock move being a service extension rather than empty stock.
     
  17. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    That seems like a really strange solution, akin to an enormous sledgehammer cracking a tiny nut. Especially when you consider there are several locations it could be turned between Middlesbrough and Redcar alone.
     
  18. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    But do those locations have a platform/driver walkway, etc?
     
  19. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    One would. But still, when did walking trackside to change ends become an avoid at all costs process?
     
  20. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Surely you'd spin at Redcar then if avoiding a walk is such a priority? Northern do it regularly during disruption so the infrastructure is in place to do it and it means slightly less of a time penalty (though it still seems insane that to avoid a walk along the trackside you'd go for a move that requires an additional unit!!).
     
  21. BMIFlyer

    BMIFlyer Member

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    I agree but there’s more to it than just avoiding the trackside walk - the trains will have longer turns at the end of the route unlike now.

    They won’t be allowed to clog up the platform at MBR for that amount of time so have to go elsewhere.
     
  22. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    Wouldn't it be easier to have a spare driver at Boro to work the ecs rather than run a dozen empty trains a day to and from the seaside?

    Longer term, aren't there plans for a third platform at Middlesbrough? This would allow the TPE to sit in the station during the turnaround.
     
  23. notlob.divad

    notlob.divad Member

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    So how does the driver change ends in Middlesbrough on a double 185 currently? Or is it only singles that make it to Teeside?
     
  24. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    Queue the confused passengers. Most people using TPE know Middlesbrough is in the North East but how many people in Manchester would know which direction a train heading to Saltburn is going? Given central Cheshire has a salt mining history I wouldn't be surprised if some people guess that it's somewhere beyond Manchester Airport.
     
  25. 30907

    30907 Established Member

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    I think the resignalling etc at Middlesbrough is delayed, hence the problem.
    Turning at Redcar would be OK, but might also block the running lines for a long time whereas Saltburn has a spare platform. The problem about running in passenger service is that it would be difficult to withdraw it.
     
  26. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    Extra driver = extra cost.

    Whereas running to Saltburn and back is just making use of the train and driver you're already paying for anyway.

    When there's a safer option available that costs nothing extra to use.
     
  27. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Double sets do make it to Middlesbrough currently (the 1557 from Middlesbrough I believe is booked a double though the rear set is usually locked out until York). So currently I believe it's perfectly acceptable for drivers to walk along the track between the units. It is, after all, the only way they can.

    Of all the reasons not to do this (at least right now), this must be amongst the absolute silliest.

    As long as the driver doesn't dawdle on arrival there will probably be enough time for it to spin at Redcar. The infrastructure is set up to allow trains to turn around there so as long as a window of say five minutes can be found (which shouldn't be impossible, it's not the busiest line in the world!) for the train to reverse Redcar would be eminently suitable.

    But there is an extra cost? With this near hour long jaunt to Saltburn and back you're surely going to need an extra diagram to maintain the service which means an extra unit, driver and guard?

    Plus the reversal takes place on a single track section so it's probably about as safe a location as you could ask for such a thing. If there is a concern the driver may sprain their ankle on some loose ballast then I can't help but feel it would be cheaper for TPE to stump up for some paving slabs to create a nice flat surface to walk on.
     
  28. J-P_L

    J-P_L Member

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    Double 185s run to Guisborough JCT. Driver walks through back set and swaps from front cab of rear set to rear cab of front set (cab to cab where the coupling is)... minimising the time on the trackside.
     
  29. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Make that confused forum members instead. Saltburn shouldn't have a service because the poor people in Manchester wouldn't know where it is going? You do post some silly stuff at times but this is right at the top. If decision making was really based on this method then there would be services withdrawn up and down the country. Imagine standing at Newcastle to see that the next train to Middlesbrough is actually advertised to Danby. Where?

    I'm still not buying the whole discussion about preventing them walking trackside as well. Has there been a spate recent incidents resulting in injury that have made this a priority? Is it another whopper from the union? Or is everyone just going soft?
     
    Last edited: 15 Sep 2018 at 14:53
  30. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    TPE are claiming to be moving towards being a proper Intercity provider. It's rare for Intercity services to terminate at places which aren't well known - Middlesbrough is smaller and less well known than most places where Intercity services terminate, without adding Saltburn in to the mix. A service getting a long distance service should have lots of long distance passengers not be somewhere where many don't know where it is and the ones that do aren't generally going to travel a long distance to get there.

    I'll remember if the western airport link ever gets built that you'd have no issue with TPE services terminating at Greenbank (serving the village of Hartford, similar in size to Saltburn) instead of Manchester Airport. ;)
     
  31. xotGD

    xotGD Established Member

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    No, LNER would never run a service from Kings Cross to a small market town in North Yorkshire. Except for the daily service to Skipton, that is.
     

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