Proposal for TPE to serve Saltburn (Now only Redcar Central)

[adrock1976]

Does anybody know if Battersby has been looked at as an alternative?

It is a much quieter line, with the only other trains using it is the Nunthorpe (every 60 minutes) and the few Whitby trains.

Or would that not be possible if the route to Battersby is single track (unsure if it it is)?

 

[Darandio]

Does anybody know if Battersby has been looked at as an alternative?

It is a much quieter line, with the only other trains using it is the Nunthorpe (every 60 minutes) and the few Whitby trains.

Or would that not be possible if the route to Battersby is single track (unsure if it it is)?

It's single track to Battersby. Given that one of the caveats also seems to be that the train is intended to be turned at a platform, it can only use one line at Battersby. That means that no other passenger train could use that whole section for 50-60 minutes while it was in there.

 

[Ih8earlies]

Forget "Drivers having to walk outside a train to change ends/cab" Drivers do this all the time anyway.

It will all be because you cannot fit a 5 car/5 car+loco in the west dock.

Guisborough Junction is fine for most shunt moves during the day. But not when it conflicts with trains to and from Whitby.

So THAT is why Saltburn is being looked at as an option. I predict if trains do run through to Saltburn - it will be ECS and only 2 or 3 times a day at most. (If they run it ECS they can get away with diagramming Conductors a break at Middlesbrough)

If they do run in passenger service, it will probably only happen if some sort of sufficient financial "incentive" is offered by somebody.

 

[BeHereNow]

Forget "Drivers having to walk outside a train to change ends/cab" Drivers do this all the time anyway.

It will all be because you cannot fit a 5 car/5 car+loco in the west dock.

Guisborough Junction is fine for most shunt moves during the day. But not when it conflicts with trains to and from Whitby.

So THAT is why Saltburn is being looked at as an option. I predict if trains do run through to Saltburn - it will be ECS and only 2 or 3 times a day at most. (If they run it ECS they can get away with diagramming Conductors a break at Middlesbrough)

If they do run in passenger service, it will probably only happen if some sort of sufficient financial "incentive" is offered by somebody.

Thanks for this. Very interesting!

 

[BMIFlyer]

Forget "Drivers having to walk outside a train to change ends/cab" Drivers do this all the time anyway.

It will all be because you cannot fit a 5 car/5 car+loco in the west dock.

Guisborough Junction is fine for most shunt moves during the day. But not when it conflicts with trains to and from Whitby.

So THAT is why Saltburn is being looked at as an option. I predict if trains do run through to Saltburn - it will be ECS and only 2 or 3 times a day at most. (If they run it ECS they can get away with diagramming Conductors a break at Middlesbrough)

If they do run in passenger service, it will probably only happen if some sort of sufficient financial "incentive" is offered by somebody.

Not doubting you but you might want to speak to ASLEF then, as they were putting the message out about the changing ends issue with the loco hauled sets. Also the York depot drivers rumour mill state the same reasons which is why many of them have decided to go into the 802 link

 

[EE Andy b1]

Forget "Drivers having to walk outside a train to change ends/cab" Drivers do this all the time anyway.

It will all be because you cannot fit a 5 car/5 car+loco in the west dock.

Guisborough Junction is fine for most shunt moves during the day. But not when it conflicts with trains to and from Whitby.

Are there not some older sidings to the East of Middlesborough station that could be utilised for MK5a turnbacks to be shunted out of the way or is the current signalling not able to do that.
The track might need an upgrade though.

ADDED
I'm just thinking that the crossovers are the wrong way round at the West end of the station so would have to do a double shunt.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are there not some older sidings to the East of Middlesborough station that could be utilised for MK5a turnbacks to be shunted out of the way or is the current signalling not able to do that.
The track might need an upgrade though.

ADDED
I'm just thinking that the crossovers are the wrong way round at the West end of the station so would have to do a double shunt.

Yup, you'd need to shunt from P2 towards the west to gain the line towards Thornaby, then shunt through P1 to get to the sidings. I've seen Northern do it sometimes if a unit is likely to be sat around for a lengthy period of time due to disruption but that's it.

In my imaginary Middlesbrough station remodelling you'd be able to arrive and depart in all directions from both P1 and P2. So, in my fantasy, TPE would be able to arrive in P1 and shunt into the sidings to the east of the station.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Ah well maybe Network Rail might find some money to do a proper Middlesborough upgrade for the future.

Perhaps we can all dream but would solve a lot of problems.

Or would be very nice to have a loco hauled service train through to Redcar and Saltburn. Just re-time the service!

 

[Kite159]

Yup, you'd need to shunt from P2 towards the west to gain the line towards Thornaby, then shunt through P1 to get to the sidings. I've seen Northern do it sometimes if a unit is likely to be sat around for a lengthy period of time due to disruption but that's it.

In my imaginary Middlesbrough station remodelling you'd be able to arrive and depart in all directions from both P1 and P2. So, in my fantasy, TPE would be able to arrive in P1 and shunt into the sidings to the east of the station.

My imaginary remodelling would have made the goods lines behind the station both bi-directional, upgrading the current Up Goods so it can take passenger services and building a new platform 3. (Including new crossovers to give access to the new platform after Newport East Junction)

The new platform can be used for terminating TPE (and other Northern services) without the need for ECS shunts.

I assume with the closure of the steel works at redcar, freight levels would have decreased so only having one goods line will be enough to cope

 

[cuccir]

The proposal is to be welcomed I guess if stock is available, but rather than aa1 or 2 a day to Manchester, the genuinely useful through service for this line would be some sort of regular service to York and if possible Leeds - but York would do in offering connections on to ECML, Cross Country and North/East Yorkshire

 

[ainsworth74]

I assume with the closure of the steel works at redcar, freight levels would have decreased so only having one goods line will be enough to cope

Not really. Most of the SSI steel plant traffic was moved by ship via the purpose built dock and then moved on the internal railway system or by internal road or by conveyor belt. The closure, therefore, hasn't really effected freight traffic that much. There's still a lot of container traffic in and out of Tees Dock, some of the potash trains from Boulby go to/from Tees Yard and some of the Skinningrove steel works traffic goes via Tees Yard as well. Middlesbrough may not have Felixstowe levels of traffic but it is still surprisingly busy! RTT will show you how many freight paths there around the station (though, of course, they won't all run).

That being said your plan, the creation of a platform three on the good lines, is basically what has been announced by the local council as the plan for revamping the station. There may be two dedicated goods lines but not all the freight traffic goes that way. Some stuff runs through the station proper currently so even if one of them was rated for passenger traffic and a platform they'd obviously still use all available lines through the station as required.

 

[DarloRich]

I don't get this idea. It seems strange.

Running TPE to Saltburn isn't the daftest idea I've seen on here - I've visited a number of times and think that it is one of the best bits of beach in the UK - wonderful place.

The problem I have is the idea that this extension is "a way of getting units out of the way at Middlesbrough" - TPE only have about twenty minutes turn around time as it is, so the proposal would require an additional unit - let's focus on that in the first instance.

Saltburn is a lovely place ( nice funicular, decent beech, nice pier, decent fish and chips, couple of decent pubs, views of the moribund steel works, freezing cold north sea. Aha the memories!) but I just don' t get the idea. I understand that perhaps you need to "hide" the unit somewhere to clear Middlesbrough station but surely, as you say, this service would require more trains and more people!

No, LNER would never run a service from Kings Cross to a small market town in North Yorkshire. Except for the daily service to Skipton, that is.

Skipton is an entirely different place to Saltburn. I can see why EC run there.

Queue the confused passengers. Most people using TPE know Middlesbrough is in the North East but how many people in Manchester would know which direction a train heading to Saltburn is going? Given central Cheshire has a salt mining history I wouldn't be surprised if some people guess that it's somewhere beyond Manchester Airport.

TPE are claiming to be moving towards being a proper Intercity provider. It's rare for Intercity services to terminate at places which aren't well known - Middlesbrough is smaller and less well known than most places where Intercity services terminate, without adding Saltburn in to the mix. A service getting a long distance service should have lots of long distance passengers not be somewhere where many don't know where it is and the ones that do aren't generally going to travel a long distance to get there.

I was on a train the other day that went to Ore. No idea where that is. I still got on because the info screen told me it stopped at the station i wanted. Are the good people of Lancashire and Cheshire unable to do that?

Does anybody know if Battersby has been looked at as an alternative?

It is a much quieter line, with the only other trains using it is the Nunthorpe (every 60 minutes) and the few Whitby trains.

Or would that not be possible if the route to Battersby is single track (unsure if it it is)?

eermmmmmmmmmm................

So THAT is why Saltburn is being looked at as an option. I predict if trains do run through to Saltburn - it will be ECS and only 2 or 3 times a day at most. (If they run it ECS they can get away with diagramming Conductors a break at Middlesbrough)

Why not run to Tees Yard and stable there? A much shorter run and much less route to learn.

 

[Darandio]

Why not run to Tees Yard and stable there? A much shorter run and much less route to learn.

But does Tees Yard have a feather mattress covered walkway for the drivers to walk on?

 

[DarloRich]

But does Tees Yard have a feather mattress covered walkway for the drivers to walk on?

No - but you can easily install a decent, well lit path ( if one doesn't exist) and/or stagings - hardly a lack of space

 

[pemma]

I was on a train the other day that went to Ore. No idea where that is. I still got on because the info screen told me it stopped at the station i wanted. Are the good people of Lancashire and Cheshire unable to do that?

Based on how many people get confused by Northern advertising Leeds-York via Harrogate services as Poppleton or Burley Park I think it's almost certain people will be confused by Saltburn appearing on the display of train destinations. It's not just people from Lancashire and Cheshire changing to North TPE services, people from the Midlands, Wales and further afield do as well.

 

[DarloRich]

Based on how many people get confused by Northern advertising Leeds-York via Harrogate services as Poppleton or Burley Park I think it's almost certain people will be confused by Saltburn appearing on the display of train destinations. It's not just people from Lancashire and Cheshire changing to North TPE services, people from the Midlands, Wales and further afield do as well.

They really wont. honestly. give it up.

 

[pemma]

They really wont. honestly. give it up.

If it appears as Saltburn via York and Middlesbrough, passengers won't get confused, otherwise people will. I've only heard of Saltburn previously because I've been to Middlesbrough before and seen it on the list of destinations at Middlesbrough station.

You seem to be forgetting not all stations have displays like the one at Leeds showing a list of all stations with a direct service and the next time of the train to each of them and even the ones that do usually have them near the entrance which means they aren't conventionally placed for passengers changing trains whose nearest display is one that only lists destinations (occasionally with via points.)

 

[DarloRich]

If it appears as Saltburn via York and Middlesbrough, passengers won't get confused, otherwise people will. I've only heard of Saltburn previously because I've been to Middlesbrough before and seen it on the list of destinations at Middlesbrough station.

You seem to be forgetting not all stations have displays like the one at Leeds showing a list of all stations with a direct service and the next time of the train to each of them and even the ones that do usually have them near the entrance which means they aren't conventionally placed for passengers changing trains whose nearest display is one that only lists destinations (occasionally with via points.)

My small station has an information display telling me next train information. Many have automated announcements giving the same. Passengers board trains all the time without knowing where the end of the line is geographically. They seem to get to their stop. Please stop with this. You are making yourself look silly.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

This thread has descended into farce.

If the train happens to say ‘Saltburn’ all the while digital Doris at Piccadilly, Victoria, Leeds (etc) is shouting out the calling points people will still get on the bloody train.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread has descended into farce.

I agree. Hundreds of thousands of passengers manage to cope with train that have potentially unclear destinations day after day. Let's move on. If anyone is truly convinced that this is an issue please start a new thread. Otherwise lets return to the topic of TPE serving (or not) Saltburn.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Just throwing in my tuppence here which is that I understand one of the key issues to be turn-around capacity at Middlesbrough. Of course, whilst it would be far easier to just improve the track layout or add some platforms (etc.), clearly there will be a need to do a different and better turn-back move about the time the Whitby trains turn up during the day.

Naturally there has already been some people raising the issue of "If the train is going to Saltburn, it would then only get terminated at Middlesbrough when its inevitably running late" which is very true and then creates the issue of loads of people piling onto Northern units; but if it's just the one train a day formed of 2 x 185 where needed and half of it can split off the back to form the next Manchester and the the top half continues to Saltburn (then ECS to York etc) then perhaps there's some legs in a one-a-day each way to/from Manchester. It's next to sod all effort to pull off but is a reasonable political point about some form of "Amazing Intercity service" coming to Saltburn.

If they are thinking about trains changing ends, one assumes there are plenty of places that aren't explicitly Saltburn to do it.

 

[Spartacus]

Just throwing in my tuppence here which is that I understand one of the key issues to be turn-around capacity at Middlesbrough. Of course, whilst it would be far easier to just improve the track layout or add some platforms (etc.), clearly there will be a need to do a different and better turn-back move about the time the Whitby trains turn up during the day.

Easiest idea to do for me would be to have the sidings east of the station between the up and down lines, used as turnbacks similar to what terminating GTRs do at St Albans. It doesn't look like it would be hard to do physically, platform 2 could remain bi-di as well, and I doubt any changes would actually have to be done to the station itself. The two tamper sidings would probably be able to remain where they are too.

Given that it might be only one service I can't see much issue with it being cancelled or not, it could even turn out to be one that currently starts at Middlesbrough formed off an ECS, the current 0622 off Middlesbrough sounds like a decent bet given when it gets to Leeds and Manchester.

 

[68011]

Running TPE to Saltburn isn't the daftest idea I've seen on here - I've visited a number of times and think that it is one of the best bits of beach in the UK - wonderful place.

The problem I have is the idea that this extension is "a way of getting units out of the way at Middlesbrough" - TPE only have about twenty minutes turn around time as it is, so the proposal would require an additional unit - let's focus on that in the first instance.

I understand that when the Mk5A sets start working regularly to Middlesbrough (May 19?) the turn round times will be around 80 minutes so the sets will need to go somewhere which is where Saltburn comes in, All diagrams will be Mk5A's except one which someone else has already mentioned, that will be 185's before eventually going over to an IEP once they are in traffic.

There are 16 ecs workings to Saltburn a day on weekdays at least in the May 19 timetable, I think the only service thats not planned to go to Saltburn is the first one of the day off Middlesbrough which comes from York empty.

If you are going to run all these workings to Saltburn then they may as we convoy passengers which is probably where the idea of running through services to Saltburn from December 19 comes in.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I can confirm that TPE will indeed run the Mk5A sets as ECS from Middlesbrough to Saltburn or Redcar depending on the time of day, to turn around.

 

[johnnychips]

It's about 13 miles from Middlesbrough to Saltburn. Seems a lot of ECS running, but I supposed they've looked at alternatives. Will it fit round the local service, as it seems not to be replacing or complementing it?

 

[ainsworth74]

It's about 13 miles from Middlesbrough to Saltburn. Seems a lot of ECS running, but I supposed they've looked at alternatives.

Does doesn't it? I mean, if you're also going the whole way, may as well run in service...

Will it fit round the local service, as it seems not to be replacing or complementing it?

I would think so there's only 2tph in each direction with the odd freight in between. Departures from Middlesbrough, for example, for Northern are xx08 and xx46 so it shouldn't be impossible to fit something in around that on the way to Saltburn.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Knowing this government and the way the DfT deal with the railways, wouldn't surprise me if they'll not let TPE carry passengers through to Redcar & Saltburn.
Encroaching on Northerns territory perhaps!!

 

[Class 170101]

Knowing this government and the way the DfT deal with the railways, wouldn't surprise me if they'll not let TPE carry passengers through to Redcar & Saltburn.
Encroaching on Northerns territory perhaps!!

Would almost certainly be seen as an ORCATs raid even though there would be a benefit to passengers having different destinations served by TPE compared to Northern.

 

[pennine]

Knowing this government and the way the DfT deal with the railways, wouldn't surprise me if they'll not let TPE carry passengers through to Redcar & Saltburn.
Encroaching on Northerns territory perhaps!!

I think its too risky (politicly speaking) not to do this, given what the Tees Valley Mayor and Middlesbrough South & EC MP have been posting on their social media etc.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Just seen this posted in the local press https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/direct-trains-saltburn-manchester-given-15149803 and heard a rumour through a contact at TPE last week.

Why stop at Saltburn. Why not get TPE to serve the Boulby freight line and open new stations at Skinningrove and Loftus? It's no less realistic....