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Proposals for "Northern arc": linking north Oxfordshire (Banbury) with Northampton and Peterborough

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A0wen

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EWR already has a planned Oxford to MK service though, and has done for ages. Or am I misunderstanding?.

Yes, my point was if somebody was trying to make a Northampton - Oxford or Reading service extending the planned MK - Oxford service would be the way to do it, but whenever that's been touted capacity between Northampton & MK is cited as the problem.
 
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swt_passenger

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Yes, my point was if somebody was trying to make a Northampton - Oxford or Reading service extending the planned MK - Oxford service would be the way to do it, but whenever that's been touted capacity between Northampton & MK is cited as the problem.
Ah, got you now. EWR as planned would already deal with most of the idea.
 

BayPaul

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EWR would be better with a planned MK to Oxford service but I believe extending to Northampton is a capacity problem.
I could be wrong but I believe there is likely to be space for this extension after HS2
 

BayPaul

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Following on from the discussion above about the size of cities vs the number of lines, is it possible that Northampton has the fewest different service routes for a town of its size?
Northampton basically has 2 - Euston and Liverpool / Crewe via Birmingham (also Rugeley, but this probably doesn't get many passengers from Northampton to stations beyond Birmingham).
The other large towns mentioned have significantly more - Plymouth has Penzance, Paddington, Manchester, Edinburgh, and a few Cardiff. Bournemouth has Weymouth, Waterloo, Manchester. Blackpool has Manchester, Liverpool, York, Euston, Aberdeen has Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Kings Cross, CrossCountry, Euston.
That is probably the more useful indicator of its poorish service provision, but also demonstrates that any new lines don't have to go directly from Northampton itself; with HS2 and EWR it should be possible to provide direct trains to some or all of Oxford via EWR, Manchester and the Trent Valley, which would give much enhanced connectivity.
 

si404

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Following on from the discussion above about the size of cities vs the number of lines, is it possible that Northampton has the fewest different service routes for a town of its size?
Sunderland fairs pretty badly, especially when you factor in that - other than Nunthorpe and Carlisle and the Metro - that the other destinations are only a handful of trains a day.

Southend has London on two routes, and Shoeburyness (basically a suburb of the town) - for a town of its size it's not very well connected to non-London places - though it is very. I guess changes at Shenfield, Stratford and Liverpool Street help give some one-change connectivity with the rest of the Anglia region.

Northampton, while effectively being on the middle of one route, has a lot of places along that route. Not as many as XC services a la Bournemouth and Plymouth, but still quite a few.
 

Andyjs247

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You've said this a few times, but there is an hourly bus service Banbury - Daventry, and these tend to get quite busy throughout the day. Many passengers make end to end journeys so there's clearly some demand. That's despite the journey taking a long time for the distance thanks to a dogleg through Woodford Halse.

However, I'm not sure there's much onward demand to Northampton - I get the feeling the service is mainly used by Daventry residents travelling to Banbury for shopping, or interchanging onto trains to Oxford, Bicester, or the Thames Valley. While in an ideal world Daventry would connect to the national network more effectively, that doesn't seem to be part of any proposal - the route is further south through villages with some of the highest car ownership rates in the country.
I’d agree with this. I don’t see any great untapped demand for travel between Banbury and Northampton. The arc parallel to EWR is just a line on a map and a starting point for discussion.
I could possibly imagine a greater demand for Banbury to MK perhaps or Northampton to Oxford. The latter used to be served directly by bus but in recent years that has dwindled to nothing partly because funding has been cut. For a time the service was cut back from Northampton to Bicester before being split in the middle at Silverstone or Brackley. Then cut back to Brackley. It was only every two or three hours compared with the X5 which is every 30 minutes between Oxford, Bicester, Buckingham and MK.
Interestingly, not long before lockdown a new bus service (505) was re-established between Brackley and Bicester extending to Bicester Village station. Runs every 1 or 2 hours but not to a regular pattern. Meanwhile there is a regular hourly bus from Brackley to Banbury. There is still only a sparse service to points east of Brackley - not even a regular bus to the county town of Northampton. There is no direct service to MK. It all points to the demand for bus travel from Brackley being largely to the west rather than towards Northampton or Milton Keynes.
In 20 years living in Bicester we have never felt the need to visit Northampton for shopping or leisure. We are more likely to visit Banbury, Oxford, Milton Keynes, Reading, Birmingham or Aylesbury etc.
 

AndyW33

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In fact if you go back to the early 1970s, the total bus service from Banbury via Brackley to Northampton was a two-days-a week market day route operated from the Banbury end by Midland Red. Admittedly Northampton has grown in population since then, but it gives an idea of just how much demand there was for people living in Brackley to go to their county town even in days with much lower car ownership. Northampton-based buses really only went as far as Silverstone, indeed United Counties had a 1 bus outstation there. Frequency between Brackley and Banbury was higher. I was involved in the introduction of the through Northampton-Oxford bus service, which was initially viable because it used just one bus from each end, and picked up peak timings of existing services on the Bicester-Oxford and Silverstone-Northampton sections so no additional vehicles were required.
 

sammorris

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I’d agree with this. I don’t see any great untapped demand for travel between Banbury and Northampton. The arc parallel to EWR is just a line on a map and a starting point for discussion.
I could possibly imagine a greater demand for Banbury to MK perhaps or Northampton to Oxford.
Can't disagree with that - MK is the major economic centre, not Northampton. The idea of a Banbury-Northampton-Peterborough axis doesn't really seem logical to me, except perhaps the central 10 or 15 miles of it connecting the major Northamptonshire towns (appreciate others think this is just as off-the-wall as any other bit of it).

Having said that, the whole area would benefit hugely from decent quality express bus routes. There's a hidden issue in the UK of really poor bus regulation, which I think is a major driver for these often (but not always) futile campaigns for 'reversing Beeching' in rural areas. No-one wants to campaign for a bus because everyone knows what that bus would be like (i.e. runs late, runs early, no info if cancelled, finishes at 5:30PM, occasionally so crammed with schoolkids you can't board it, no Sunday buses, barely cheaper than a taxi) and also everyone in rural areas knows that you should never rely on a bus route still existing in 6 months or even two weeks time (see the failed Southam --> Daventry/Banbury routes A0wen mentions above). So we end up with campaigns for the construction of railways instead, which in many cases is really using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But it'd need national legislation substantially amending bus regulation (in the face of no doubt very fierce opposition and lobbying from the current bus industry) to solve that.
 

edwin_m

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Can't disagree with that - MK is the major economic centre, not Northampton. The idea of a Banbury-Northampton-Peterborough axis doesn't really seem logical to me, except perhaps the central 10 or 15 miles of it connecting the major Northamptonshire towns (appreciate others think this is just as off-the-wall as any other bit of it).

Having said that, the whole area would benefit hugely from decent quality express bus routes. There's a hidden issue in the UK of really poor bus regulation, which I think is a major driver for these often (but not always) futile campaigns for 'reversing Beeching' in rural areas. No-one wants to campaign for a bus because everyone knows what that bus would be like (i.e. runs late, runs early, no info if cancelled, finishes at 5:30PM, occasionally so crammed with schoolkids you can't board it, no Sunday buses, barely cheaper than a taxi) and also everyone in rural areas knows that you should never rely on a bus route still existing in 6 months or even two weeks time (see the failed Southam --> Daventry/Banbury routes A0wen mentions above). So we end up with campaigns for the construction of railways instead, which in many cases is really using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But it'd need national legislation substantially amending bus regulation (in the face of no doubt very fierce opposition and lobbying from the current bus industry) to solve that.
Absolutely. We are at risk of spending billions (re-)opening railways that will improve service to a handful of places, when for the same money we could put in place a decent bus service nationwide, including express buses with timetable and fares integration with the rail network and guarantees (perhaps after a "probation" period) of the right to object to a proposed withdrawal. Integration could also mean that they run in areas where congestion is minor so reliability would be good, and feed into trains at the edges of major cities rather than getting stuck in traffic further in.

This may not please railway crayonistas or those in the Tory party that want to return to the 1950s, but it's far more sensible as a national transport policy. It might kill off some railway proposals but could bring passengers to existing and possibly proposed railways by diverting through journeys from parallel buses, which would be more about local journeys the train wasn't suitable for. Studies into new rail routes would consider the bus alternative and particularly whether it could operate reliably in the road and traffic conditions of the area.
 

Camden

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Studies into new rail routes would consider the bus alternative and particularly whether it could operate reliably in the road and traffic conditions of the area.
Which in this case would fail, based on the previous objections to the rail link being explored (overcrowded roads, being more deserving of attention).

The Banbury to Northampton portion I'm not clear on any history, but I think it's worth bearing in mind that a considerable part of the arc route has been touted in official quarters as a candidate for reinstatement for a long time already, long before the current "reverse beeching" trend.

Peterborough has been put about as an eventual end terminus for Thameslink via Corby for as long as I can remember. This adds a potential second use to that reinstatement and extension.

Considering the effort to reach Corby from London, the continued electrification, the change of rolling stock, and the services from Peterborough, I am as certain as I ever have been that the ambition to extend Thameslink continues to exist. Corby will in due course be officially served by Thameslink, rather than MML, and attention will return northwards once more.

To that end, the only part of the Northampton - Peterborough axis truly belonging to this arc project alone is the short stretch between Northampton and Wellingborough.
 
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Merle Haggard

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Yes, my point was if somebody was trying to make a Northampton - Oxford or Reading service extending the planned MK - Oxford service would be the way to do it, but whenever that's been touted capacity between Northampton & MK is cited as the problem.

I'm a bit puzzled...

The Oxford to Milton Keynes service will use the WCML from Bletchley-Milton Keynes.
There are more trains on the section South of Milton Keynes than North (Euston - Milton Keynes terminators)
So why is there a capacity problem Milton Keynes - Northampton?
 

Merle Haggard

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In fact if you go back to the early 1970s, the total bus service from Banbury via Brackley to Northampton was a two-days-a week market day route operated from the Banbury end by Midland Red. Admittedly Northampton has grown in population since then, but it gives an idea of just how much demand there was for people living in Brackley to go to their county town even in days with much lower car ownership. Northampton-based buses really only went as far as Silverstone, indeed United Counties had a 1 bus outstation there. Frequency between Brackley and Banbury was higher. I was involved in the introduction of the through Northampton-Oxford bus service, which was initially viable because it used just one bus from each end, and picked up peak timings of existing services on the Bicester-Oxford and Silverstone-Northampton sections so no additional vehicles were required.

Part of the reason for the poor service Banbury - Northampton was historic, and was also why there was a Midland Red service from Rugby that only ran as far as East Haddon ?or West Haddon - either way not great traffic objectives.

To cut 'wasteful' competition, the bus companies had 'area agreements' and boundaries were drawn, which would not be crossed by either operator. The boundary between BMMO and UC must have run close to, if not along, the Northamptonshire border with Oxon. and Warwks. Presumably the (scant) BMMO Northampton - Banbury service dated to before this agreement.

A much better Northampton - Banbury service was on the Associated Motorways Cheltenham service; UC at Derngate, Northampton were quite happy to book tickets immediately before departure, and drivers (despite it being an express service) generally also sold paper tickets (sometimes from the bottom of the pad...).
 

RT4038

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Can't disagree with that - MK is the major economic centre, not Northampton. The idea of a Banbury-Northampton-Peterborough axis doesn't really seem logical to me, except perhaps the central 10 or 15 miles of it connecting the major Northamptonshire towns (appreciate others think this is just as off-the-wall as any other bit of it).

Having said that, the whole area would benefit hugely from decent quality express bus routes. There's a hidden issue in the UK of really poor bus regulation, which I think is a major driver for these often (but not always) futile campaigns for 'reversing Beeching' in rural areas. No-one wants to campaign for a bus because everyone knows what that bus would be like (i.e. runs late, runs early, no info if cancelled, finishes at 5:30PM, occasionally so crammed with schoolkids you can't board it, no Sunday buses, barely cheaper than a taxi) and also everyone in rural areas knows that you should never rely on a bus route still existing in 6 months or even two weeks time (see the failed Southam --> Daventry/Banbury routes A0wen mentions above). So we end up with campaigns for the construction of railways instead, which in many cases is really using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But it'd need national legislation substantially amending bus regulation (in the face of no doubt very fierce opposition and lobbying from the current bus industry) to solve that.

Or more to the point, fierce opposition and lobbying from the Treasury, who do not want to pick the bill for operating uneconomic bus services. The legal means [for Local Authorities] to guarantee services is already in place, which the current bus industry is more than happy to co-operate with, but the funding is not.
 

si404

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To that end, the only part of the Northampton - Peterborough axis truly belonging to this arc project alone is the short stretch between Northampton and Wellingborough.
Though the arc is vague - the proposal might be for leaving Northampton from the north and meeting the MML between Wellingborough and Kettering - with Leicester-(Kettering)-Northampton-MK-Aylesbury-Wycombe-OOC being another corridor England's Economic Heartland have proposed.

At this early stage (phase 1) of the Passenger Rail Plan, we really do not know anything beyond the very short stuff mentioned.
 

The Planner

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I'm a bit puzzled...

The Oxford to Milton Keynes service will use the WCML from Bletchley-Milton Keynes.
There are more trains on the section South of Milton Keynes than North (Euston - Milton Keynes terminators)
So why is there a capacity problem Milton Keynes - Northampton?
Because it depends on where E-W pop out at Denbigh Hall and what they follow or are followed by between there and Northampton. Take a random off peak hour and you need to get in between the following at Bletchley.
xx.57 MK to Euston
xx.13 Euston to New St
xx.17 MK to South Croydon
xx.24 Euston to Liverpool
xx.26 Liverpool to Euston
xx.30 Northbound freight
xx.37 Southbound freight
xx.42 Euston to Northampton
xx.46 New St to Euston
xx.49 Euston to Lime St
xx.52 MK to Euston
xx.55 East Croydon to MK
You don't have many gaps there especially if you need to be 3 before or 2 after a conflicting move, and when you can pop out northbound chances are you will have a WMT not far behind you and then you have to deal with the Northampton turnround, not saying it cannot be done, but it isn't just a case of "they can go to Northampton"
 

mr_jrt

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Counter view: Beeching's theory was close the branches and low-usage lines and replace them with cheaper bus routes, and develop the trunk routes. Beeching's outcome outcome was that people don't like buses, so they bought cars, and once they had to drive to the nearest major station, they just drove the whole way instead, and the bus routes closed down just like the railways they replaced, and people who couldn't drive were left with no options.
 

A0wen

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There is still only a sparse service to points east of Brackley - not even a regular bus to the county town of Northampton. There is no direct service to MK. It all points to the demand for bus travel from Brackley being largely to the west rather than towards Northampton or Milton Keynes.

There is a bus between Brackley & MK - Stagecoach X91 though it is a limited number of journeys.
 

A0wen

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To cut 'wasteful' competition, the bus companies had 'area agreements' and boundaries were drawn, which would not be crossed by either operator. The boundary between BMMO and UC must have run close to, if not along, the Northamptonshire border with Oxon. and Warwks. Presumably the (scant) BMMO Northampton - Banbury service dated to before this agreement.

Not really a true representation of what happened.

What tended to happen was the boundaries were drawn at towns / cities so as to prevent the silly situation of buses 'meeting' in villages.

Midland Red ran into Northampton for many years from Rugby and indeed further when they ran an express from Birmingham.

United Counties of course ran a regular service into Leicester (they still do) which was Midland Red territory.

Further south Aylesbury - though it had a United Counties, later Luton & District garage was served in NBC days by UC / L&D, London Country from Watford & Hemel, Alder Valley from High Wycombe and South Midland from the Oxford direction.
 

Merle Haggard

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Because it depends on where E-W pop out at Denbigh Hall and what they follow or are followed by between there and Northampton. Take a random off peak hour and you need to get in between the following at Bletchley.
xx.57 MK to Euston
xx.13 Euston to New St
xx.17 MK to South Croydon
xx.24 Euston to Liverpool
xx.26 Liverpool to Euston
xx.30 Northbound freight
xx.37 Southbound freight
xx.42 Euston to Northampton
xx.46 New St to Euston
xx.49 Euston to Lime St
xx.52 MK to Euston
xx.55 East Croydon to MK
You don't have many gaps there especially if you need to be 3 before or 2 after a conflicting move, and when you can pop out northbound chances are you will have a WMT not far behind you and then you have to deal with the Northampton turnround, not saying it cannot be done, but it isn't just a case of "they can go to Northampton"

Thanks for that, I can now see the problem...

However, as well as finding a slot at Denbigh, there's also the question of these trains having to terminate at Milton Keynes, which inevitably means briefly blocking the slow lines in both directions; perhaps this could be avoided by continuing to Northampton (which, I accept, may create a similar problem there).
 

The Planner

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Thanks for that, I can now see the problem...

However, as well as finding a slot at Denbigh, there's also the question of these trains having to terminate at Milton Keynes, which inevitably means briefly blocking the slow lines in both directions; perhaps this could be avoided by continuing to Northampton (which, I accept, may create a similar problem there).
The E-W trains should fit in the bay at MK.
 

NorthOxonian

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Can't disagree with that - MK is the major economic centre, not Northampton. The idea of a Banbury-Northampton-Peterborough axis doesn't really seem logical to me, except perhaps the central 10 or 15 miles of it connecting the major Northamptonshire towns (appreciate others think this is just as off-the-wall as any other bit of it).

Having said that, the whole area would benefit hugely from decent quality express bus routes. There's a hidden issue in the UK of really poor bus regulation, which I think is a major driver for these often (but not always) futile campaigns for 'reversing Beeching' in rural areas. No-one wants to campaign for a bus because everyone knows what that bus would be like (i.e. runs late, runs early, no info if cancelled, finishes at 5:30PM, occasionally so crammed with schoolkids you can't board it, no Sunday buses, barely cheaper than a taxi) and also everyone in rural areas knows that you should never rely on a bus route still existing in 6 months or even two weeks time (see the failed Southam --> Daventry/Banbury routes A0wen mentions above). So we end up with campaigns for the construction of railways instead, which in many cases is really using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

But it'd need national legislation substantially amending bus regulation (in the face of no doubt very fierce opposition and lobbying from the current bus industry) to solve that.

This sort of route can be done - just look at the X5 to the south. It does take a while because of the sheer length of the route, but it has a very solid passenger base, in spite of its high fares.

If the original X4 route came back (ie MK - Northampton - Corby - P'boro), was perhaps made slightly faster by bypassing some of the small villages and only service town centres, and was operated by high-spec coaches, it would be well used and could provide a major part of the area's public transport. And it would be a hundred times cheaper than a new rail line.
 

Merle Haggard

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Not really a true representation of what happened.

What tended to happen was the boundaries were drawn at towns / cities so as to prevent the silly situation of buses 'meeting' in villages.

Midland Red ran into Northampton for many years from Rugby and indeed further when they ran an express from Birmingham.

United Counties of course ran a regular service into Leicester (they still do) which was Midland Red territory.

Further south Aylesbury - though it had a United Counties, later Luton & District garage was served in NBC days by UC / L&D, London Country from Watford & Hemel, Alder Valley from High Wycombe and South Midland from the Oxford direction.


It wasn't clear-cut, and I may be completely wrong in my understanding of 'Area Agreements' but all these services into Northampton were 'express' ones; I'm not sure how the agreement affected them. As well, I was really referring to the times when BMMO was part of the BET group, and UC, the Tilling group later THC, before they came under common ownership with the NBC.

The BMMO service from the Rugby direction was the BMMO X96, Shrewsbury - Northampton. Operated from the Shrewsbury end the first Westbound departure from Northampton was late morning, and the last arrival, mid afternoon, so of little practical value from Northampton. Curiously, the X96 ran into Derngate (UCOC -owned) but the other BMMO services terminated at The Mayorhold, then an out-of-the-way part of town.

The Northampton - Leicester service was a BMMO 'X' service only. When their privatisation successor, Midland Fox, started to be aggressive in other areas, UCOC introduced a Leicester service in retaliation - it was a comparatively recent (ca. 1986) innovation. Of course, there had been a UC London-Northampton-Leicester-Nottingham express service for many years, but my experience was that it was never used for intermediate (i.e. to/from village) travel at all, only town to town.

UCOC operated a Northampton - Birmingham express service as a result of taking over Allchin's in 1933; this later evolved into a Birmingham - Lowestoft express service jointly with BMMO and ECOC, before withering back.

The Aylesbury situation was the result of a quirk of history. Premier Omnibus Co operated routes in London, and when it was clear that these would be compulsorily purchased by LPTB, they bought the Aylesbury Omnibus Co. (which, as its name suggests, had pretty much a monopoly on services radiating from that town) in 1931. Possibly adopting London methods, the entire fleet was replaced by new, obtained on hire purchase; this didn't end well, and the company was then bought, possibly in distress, by Eastern National, in 1933. E.N. then resold most of the routes to the other operators surrounding Aylesbury, keeping some for themselves. Possibly this division was the result of some sort of area agreement, as it would have been straightforward for E.N. to simply continue to operate the whole network, though more cost-effectively.

But nothing is clear-cut, and bus history is not well documented. Whatever the reasons, and it seems odd that services from Northampton Westwards (towards BMMO territory) were always sparse, particularly considering how intense bus services were in other directions. Whether this is due to lack of demand, or potential demand was not satisfied because of bus company policies, isn't clear to me, why was Northampton to Banbury (market day and Saturday, 2 return trips) so poorly served compared to, say. Northampton - Harborough (reasonable service daily via 2 routes)?

As an aside, I recollect in a history of the SMJR (of which the Northampton and Banbury Railway was a constituent) that one of the best sources of income for the N&B (a low bar!) was the sale of hay. When times were slack, station staff set out with scythes in the summer and cut lineside grass on embankments and cuttings.
 

squizzler

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Ah, I like the sound of that. Is Gt Yarmouth to Penzance feasible?
I don't see why not.

If you liked that idea, fasten your seatbelts, 'cos here comes another flight of fancy. Those with a crayon allergy might wish to look away at this point!

Rather than building a railway merely from Peterborough to the Chiltern Mainline near Banbury, why not keep going eastwards across the Cotswolds and come into Cheltenham from the North? This line could be linked to the North Cotswolds Line by a chord or a shared station, so that traffic heading northeast from Oxford could also join this route to enter Cheltenham. Chiltern Mainline traffic could also access this system to Gloucester or Worcester.

Traffic from Peterborough (as a gateway to East Anglia and East Midlands) could then continue east to Cheltenham, Gloucester, Chepstow and Cardiff.
 

edwin_m

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Or more to the point, fierce opposition and lobbying from the Treasury, who do not want to pick the bill for operating uneconomic bus services. The legal means [for Local Authorities] to guarantee services is already in place, which the current bus industry is more than happy to co-operate with, but the funding is not.
And therein lies the problem. The whole decision process on whether to use a bus or a train is skewed by which bit of the State gets to pay for it, and by the fact the legislation governing bus competition and local authority finance makes it virtually impossible to implement a frequent high-quality interurban bus route that could integrate with the rail network .
Counter view: Beeching's theory was close the branches and low-usage lines and replace them with cheaper bus routes, and develop the trunk routes. Beeching's outcome outcome was that people don't like buses, so they bought cars, and once they had to drive to the nearest major station, they just drove the whole way instead, and the bus routes closed down just like the railways they replaced, and people who couldn't drive were left with no options.
Compounded by the fact that all those cars blocked the roads in the major towns and cities so the buses couldn't operate properly either. This might not have happened had the bus been properly integrated with the remaining rail service on the Swiss/German model.
 

Dr Hoo

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Counter view: Beeching's theory was close the branches and low-usage lines and replace them with cheaper bus routes, and develop the trunk routes. Beeching's outcome outcome was that people don't like buses, so they bought cars, and once they had to drive to the nearest major station, they just drove the whole way instead, and the bus routes closed down just like the railways they replaced, and people who couldn't drive were left with no options.
Not really. Other than in very specific cases, such as river crossings where there wasn't a nearby road, there was no expectation of 'replacement' bus services.

The Reshaping Report said: "With the exception of northern Scotland, and parts of central Wales, most areas of the country are already served by a network of bus services more dense than the network of rail services which will be withdrawn, and in the majority of cases these buses already carry the major proportion of local traffic. With minor exceptions, these bus services cater for the same traffic flows as the railways, on routes which are roughly parallel. Taken as a whole they have enough spare capacity to absorb the traffic which will be displaced from the railways, which will do no more than replace the bus traffic which has been lost over the last decade, and which will provide a veery welcome addition to the revenue of the bus operators. The network of bus services is shown on Map No. 12."

(The map is amazing in recording just how many rural bus routes there still were in 1963.)

I have previously posted in historic threads (from official transport statistics) that in the mid 1960s, outside the metropolitan areas and London, over 90% of public transport trips were by bus.

The real message being that even with a public transport 'monopoly' after withdrawal of local passenger rail services rural bus services continued to wilt in the face of rising car ownership and other factors. Cars are just so convenient.

More broadly in the context of this thread, many of the communities mentioned suffer from the 'medium-sized town' syndrome of being a bit too big for a single railway station to be very convenient for many. This is even more marked with the low densities of 'new towns' and London overspill evident in Northampton, Corby and Peterborough in particular. But even in Kettering and Wellingborough there are extensive developments of housing and employment over two miles from the stations. Once you have to start covering legs (often at both ends) by cycling, drop-off, taxi, park and ride, local bus or whatever it really does make most inter-town trips a very slow and inconvenient process.
 

RT4038

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Not really a true representation of what happened.

What tended to happen was the boundaries were drawn at towns / cities so as to prevent the silly situation of buses 'meeting' in villages.

Midland Red ran into Northampton for many years from Rugby and indeed further when they ran an express from Birmingham.

United Counties of course ran a regular service into Leicester (they still do) which was Midland Red territory.

Further south Aylesbury - though it had a United Counties, later Luton & District garage was served in NBC days by UC / L&D, London Country from Watford & Hemel, Alder Valley from High Wycombe and South Midland from the Oxford direction.

United Counties did not run a regular service into Leicester until after de-regulation (except Service 264 from Corby on Saturdays only, jointly with Midland Red).
 

RT4038

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It wasn't clear-cut, and I may be completely wrong in my understanding of 'Area Agreements' but all these services into Northampton were 'express' ones; I'm not sure how the agreement affected them. As well, I was really referring to the times when BMMO was part of the BET group, and UC, the Tilling group later THC, before they came under common ownership with the NBC.

The BMMO service from the Rugby direction was the BMMO X96, Shrewsbury - Northampton. Operated from the Shrewsbury end the first Westbound departure from Northampton was late morning, and the last arrival, mid afternoon, so of little practical value from Northampton. Curiously, the X96 ran into Derngate (UCOC -owned) but the other BMMO services terminated at The Mayorhold, then an out-of-the-way part of town.

The X96 terminated at The Mayorhold also. The move of both services (Banbury and X96) to Derngate only took place in the later 60s, possibly after BET sold out to the THC.

I suspect it is a quirk of history that the (Banbury) - Brackley-Northampton route was only a limited service. The Syresham/Silverstone-Towcester-Northampton route of United Counties was bought from several independents in the 30s, and there was probably only very limited trade from the Towcester/Silverstone area to Brackley. United Counties and Midland Red had come to a territorial agreement in 1928, and this road probably fell into a gap that was just not lucrative enough to justify additional service. (UCOC probably wouldn't want more Midland Red buses taking Towcester-Northampton trade, in exchange for UCOC buses running dubious mileage into Brackley). This area was very rural in those days!
 

squizzler

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As a former resident of the area in question, I had no idea that the location had such an interesting history of local bus provision or so many memories associated with it, and confess to having been rather underwhelmed by services from Towcester in the late 2000s.

Whilst I don't see its relevance to EEH rail development strategy, the topic of Lost Bus Services in South Northamptonshire And surrounding Districts certainly seems to warrant its own thread which I would hope to follow (even if my opportunity to contribute might be limited!)
 
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