Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[Kite159]

No more XC from Bath, Bromsgrove or Guildford it sounds like. Paignton seeing a reduction of services calling there

 

[Ash Bridge]

No more XC from Bath, Bromsgrove or Guildford it sounds like. Paignton seeing a reduction of services calling there

Add to that, Manchester has lost its only direct train from Cornwall (Penzance)

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[PHILIPE]

Looks like the HST sets will be used as follows...

0600 LDS-PLY/1225 PLY-EDB
0539 NCL-PLY/1325 PLY-NCL
0645 NCL-PLY/1425 PLY-NCL
0740 NCL-PLY/1525 PLY-LDS

LDS = Leeds NCL = Newcastle PLY = Plymouth EDB = Edinburgh

How does this work out ? Are there ECS running between Newcastle and Edinburgh to balance ?

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[yorksrob]

Oh well, there goes that nice 21:00 Birmingham - Plymouth I usually try to get.

 

[mm333]

The 0820 Aberdeen-Penzance (the longest single journey in the UK) will be scrapped. They'll be an 0600 Birmingham-Glasgow/Aberdeen and a 1520 Aberdeen-Birmingham.

 

[ainsworth74]

I've also worked out the HST diagrams as well and added a touch more detail

0600 LDS - PLY 1144
0740 NCL - PLY 1443 (formerly EDB - PLY)
0539 NCL - PLY 1247* (formerly YRK - PLY and Voyager Monday Excepted)
0645 NCL - PLY 1337 (formerly Voyager)

1225 PLY - EDB 2117 (formerly PLY - GLC)
1325 PLY - NCL 2033 (formerly PLY - EDB and Voyager Monday Excepted)
1425 PLY - NCL 2128 (formerly PLY - EDB and Voyager)
1525 PLY - LDS 2106

2130 EDB - NCL 2300* (New service formed off 2117 arrival)

*approximately

Note: 0632 DEE - PLY 1648 and 1725 PLY - LDS 2315 are Voyagers Monday to Friday (formerly HST Friday Only)

NCL = Newcastle, PLY = Plymouth, DEE = Dundee, LDS = Leeds, YRK = York, EDB = Edinburgh and GLC = Glasgow Central.

So there are some quite big changes and they've really focused them on the Newcastle - Plymouth core service. I really do not see how it's possible for them to remain based at Craingentinny. They're going to have to rebase at Heaton in Newcastle. I mean they've deliberately taken the one service that does still call at Edinburgh back to Newcastle! This would of course handily free up Craigentinny just in time for more SETs and ScotRail HSTs to be based there...

 

[PHILIPE]

I think this answers my question. The key being withdrawing them from Craigentinny and apparently transferring their Maintenance to Heaton.

 

[sprinterguy]

This is wonderful news for me if Crosscountry stick to the changes specified: My usually cramped commute home from work goes from having 200 seats to 400, and there's a solid block of HSTs heading north from Birmingham on the North East route every hour throughout the evening peak.

I hadn't expected the announced changes to produce such beneficial results.

 

[JonathanH]

I think this answers my question. The key being withdrawing them from Craigentinny and apparently transferring their Maintenance to Heaton.

Alongside the Grand Central HSTs. When might these be available for another operator - ie Cross Country?

 

[Kettledrum]

Looks like the HST sets will be used as follows...

0600 LDS-PLY/1225 PLY-EDB
0539 NCL-PLY/1325 PLY-NCL
0645 NCL-PLY/1425 PLY-NCL
0740 NCL-PLY/1525 PLY-LDS

LDS = Leeds NCL = Newcastle PLY = Plymouth EDB = Edinburgh

Mixed fortunes for the 170 routes...

More 2 cars and less 3 cars on the Nottingham-Cardiff route...
Some 4 and 5 car 170's on the Birmingham-Leicester route...
0818 Leicester-Birmingham starts at Cambridge
1752 Birmingham-Leicester extended through to Cambridge
1st evening off peak train Birmingham to Leicester reduced from 3 cars to 2 cars... It's usually full, and full and standing on a Friday as a 3 car...

The 2 car 170 units are not fit for purpose on the rush hour trains in and out of Birmingham New Street. They are already far too over-crowded - and compare very badly (in terms of capacity) with most of the other commuter trains into Birmingham.

Replacing some 5 car Voyager trains with 4 car also worries me. It might work at he extremities of the XC network out of peak times, but that's all.

I do accept, that short of getting trains cascaded from elsewhere - perhaps from the MML or perhaps 170s from elsewhere, there's not much more that can immediately been done.....but we have been raising concerns about XC over-crowding for a long time, and still no-one is taking it seriously.

The timetable changes look like robbing a poor Peter to pay a poor Paul, and do re-enforce just how desperate the rolling stock situation is.

 

[yorksrob]

The 2 car 170 units are not fit for purpose on the rush hour trains in and out of Birmingham New Street. They are already far too over-crowded - and compare very badly (in terms of capacity) with most of the other commuter trains into Birmingham.

Replacing some 5 car Voyager trains with 4 car also worries me. It might work at he extremities of the XC network out of peak times, but that's all.

I do accept, that short of getting trains cascaded from elsewhere - perhaps from the MML or perhaps 170s from elsewhere, there's not much more that can immediately been done.....but we have been raising concerns about XC over-crowding for a long time, and still no-one is taking it seriously.

The timetable changes look like robbing a poor Peter to pay a poor Paul, and do re-enforce just how desperate the rolling stock situation is.

GC's HST's should be available next year.

 

[xtradj]

Manchester benefiting quite well

Bristol services extended to Exeter

And the 20.27 to Birmingham now extended to Reading

 

[All Line Rover]

Interesting that demand has only grown from 32 million journeys a year to 37 million journeys a year between 2007 and 2015. I'm sure the WCML has seen more considerable growth than that. I wonder if perennially crowded trains are dampening demand on XC?

 

[tbtc]

06:00 Birmingham – Glasgow goes up from 262 seats to 462 seats? FANTASTIC news for Sheffield - Leeds commuters!

06:32 Dundee – Plymouth goes down from five coaches to four coaches - busy into Edinburgh when I've used it (but I guess Fife - Edinburgh demand should be a ScotRail issue)

07:19 Derby - Leeds - new service into Leeds at peak times - 16:40 service southbound too - good news

15:50 Sheffield - Leeds - new service - not many XC services have ever commenced or terminated at Sheffield

high capacity five car Voyagers are therefore dedicated to serving the extremities of the network at times when their optimum location should be in the core of the network at that time

Good argument (for using the Voyagers to serve Aberdeen during the daytime rather than peak hours) - I just hope that ScotRail have the capacity to pick up the current XC paths!

We were seeking to add some additional station calls at Gloucester in our Manchester to Bristol services from December 2017

Interesting - I wasn't expecting that

The provision of extra services at peak times will use track capacity which it is planned will be used in the future by the Northern Franchise. It is envisaged that the train paths proposed to be used by CrossCountry will eventually be used by Northern.

^^ re Sheffield to Leeds - extra capacity much required, but if an extra Voyager at rush hour for a year or two is then replaced by a two coach 195 then that's going to be busy...

Our ability to increase services at weekends (and in summer months) is limited and our national network of services leaves us badly affected by engineering possessions which further impede the effective use of resources

There seems a lot of realistic frustration in this document - understandably, given the complexities - I found it very interesting

Great Western Railway will operate the majority of high speed services to the West of England via the Berks & Hants route therefore removing the Bristol call

^^ from December 2017 - i.e. more need for XC to improve the Bristol - Devon frequency

Northern Railway will introduce additional peak services between Sheffield and Chesterfield from December 2019 (through extension of the Hull – Sheffield service)

Minor quibble, but my understanding was that the Hull - Sheffield services were only extending to Chesterfield *Off*peak?

The 0820 Aberdeen-Penzance (the longest single journey in the UK) will be scrapped. They'll be an 0600 Birmingham-Glasgow/Aberdeen and a 1520 Aberdeen-Birmingham.

Anyone predicting a Forum meet up on the final through service from Aberdeen to Penzance?

So there are some quite big changes and they've really focused them on the Newcastle - Plymouth core service. I really do not see how it's possible for them to remain based at Craingentinny. They're going to have to rebase at Heaton in Newcastle. I mean they've deliberately taken the one service that does still call at Edinburgh back to Newcastle! This would of course handily free up Craigentinny just in time for more SETs and ScotRail HSTs to be based there...

Good points - all sounds positive (given the lack of spare stock suitable).

A half hourly Birmingham - Exeter service sounds better than the current "hourly service plus some Manchester services extended through to Paignton" arrangement - much simpler - focus on the "core" and let GWR/ FGW deal with their branch line. Same goes with ScotRail picking up some "slack" in Fife.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[All Line Rover]

It's a pity that extra calls have not been proposed for Tamworth. The improved Trent Valley service (operated by London Midland) means it would often be more convenient to change trains at Tamworth, if only more XC services called there.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's some seriously expensive XC fares suppressing demand...

Though of course one of the reasons that they're expensive is to manage that demand!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Everyone else has already said what I would was going to, but I too am pretty impressed by this, it's certainly a lot more thorough than what I thought would happen given the relatively uninspiring Direct Award. Getting half hourly to Exeter is an absolute blinder, as are the additional morning Reading-Bournemouth and various peak hour Yorkshire services. Bromsgrove being caped is understandable, as are Bath and Guildford. Interesting to note the one cut to a Glasgow as I would have thought they'd be under SLC what with them replacing East Coast, but it's a minor detail. Good job all round.

15:50 Sheffield - Leeds - new service - not many XC services have ever commenced or terminated at Sheffield

There's the 0601 Reading starter currently, and pre-recast back in 2008 I'm certain one of the last trains south from Newcastle terminated there too.

 

[Richard_B]

All good changes I think. The extension of Bristol trains to Exeter is fantastic - given the level of non-XC service between them it really is a weak link, given that the GWR trains go via B&H most of the time anyway.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The biggest improvement is clearly the use of more HSTs through the middle of the week. Clearly whatever disincentive to do so previously has been eliminated even if this might have been a firm nudge from the DfT. Equally it could be that having geared up for GC HSTs (as well as the NMT) Heaton is now a more realistic maintenance base for them. The rest looks like classic British Rail; pruning extremities as much as politically acceptable while adjusting core operation to fit in with changes in other service groups/TOCs while also optimising diagrams based on passenger loading surveys. It won't be perfect but it seems someone is at least trying.

 

[Failed Unit]

I wonder why the still go to Aberdeen? Politics?

Even now the Aberdeen service follows an east coast very closely so Aberdeen - York is duplicated within 30 minutes. I know people will like to do direct trains but I am sure Aberdeen - Birmingham business is all via west coast changing haymarket.

Does enough demand really exist at Derby, Sheffield etc to keep the through train?

The answer could be yes. Don't know. Just asking the question.

 

[yorksrob]

As others have said, it's a big step forward to have all the HST's utilised throughout the week.

 

[Suraggu]

I think this answers my question. The key being withdrawing them from Craigentinny and apparently transferring their Maintenance to Heaton.

Considering CrossCountry have just signed a new maintenance deal with VTEC and HST's to remain based at Craigentinny that won't be happening in the medium term.

 

[sprinterguy]

Alongside the Grand Central HSTs. When might these be available for another operator - ie Cross Country?

GC's HST's should be available next year.

Given that the timetable consultation specifically states that "no other additional rolling stock is currently foreseen to be available [beyond the 58th Voyager and existing HST sets]" I'm not sure where you get the idea that Crosscountry are likely to take on Grand Central's HST sets. More likely that, subject to the caveat from Suraggu above, which was also my understanding, if the Crosscountry HSTs were to move into Heaton they'd do so as the Grand Central HSTs move out.

Which does admittedly seem a shame, letting three 5/6 carriage trains with no stated future home go to waste. Although perhaps the magic words are "currently foreseen" (though the availability of the GC HSTs isn't far off if XC were looking to do a deal to lease them).

 

[Suraggu]

Given that the timetable consultation specifically states that "no other additional rolling stock is currently foreseen to be available [beyond the 58th Voyager and existing HST sets]" I'm not sure where you get the idea that Crosscountry are likely to take on Grand Central's HST sets. More likely that, subject to the caveat from Suraggu above, which was also my understanding, if the Crosscountry HSTs were to move into Heaton they'd do so as the Grand Central HSTs move out.

Which does admittedly seem a shame, letting three 5/6 carriage trains with no stated future home go to waste. Although perhaps the magic words are "currently foreseen" (though the availability of the GC HSTs isn't far off if XC were looking to do a deal to lease them).

With AXC HST vehicles slowly being sent to Wabtec Doncaster for post 2020 refit, you could in theory take a fresh lease of the GC HST fleet once they are surplus to requirements and send the vehicles to Wabtec for a AXC refit and slip them into the fleet.

But then AXC would need to renegotiate its maintenance contract and as they are happy with Craigentinny currently, but impending Hitachi takeover of the depot adds uncertainty to the mix.

 

[ainsworth74]

Considering CrossCountry have just signed a new maintenance deal with VTEC and HST's to remain based at Craigentinny that won't be happening in the medium term.

Interesting, they can't surely be proposing to undertake a load of ECS moves as it just wouldn't make any sense. Rather than all but one of the northbounds terminating at Newcastle they'd all run on to Edinburgh and that one that does wouldn't come straight back again. Unless that 2130 is the fifth set coming off the depot to go to Newcastle for service the next day?

It just doesn't make sense unless they move maintenance to Heaton.

All well I'm sure all will become clear!

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting, they can't surely be proposing to undertake a load of ECS moves as it just wouldn't make any sense. Rather than all but one of the northbounds terminating at Newcastle they'd all run on to Edinburgh and that one that does wouldn't come straight back again. Unless that 2130 is the fifth set coming off the depot to go to Newcastle for service the next day?

It just doesn't make sense unless they move maintenance to Heaton.

All well I'm sure all will become clear!

Shame the 2130 wasn't later. Prove to East Coast that demand exists after 2100!