Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[221129]

Why not keep the Paignton services as they are and still have the half hourly Birmingham to Exeter, whats stopping them?

They can't. That's the point. Lack of stock, crew and paths.

 

[Class 170101]

Well lack of stock they are prepared to hire. Will be some HSTs going spare soon.

 

[Starmill]

If they were permitted to lease new stock then sure. But it's a short term direct award, so anything not in the terms of that is not going to happen (frustratingly).

 

[221129]

Well lack of stock they are prepared to hire. Will be some HSTs going spare soon.

Keep dreaming.

 

[Confused147]

They can't. That's the point. Lack of stock, crew and paths.

I dont think stock would be a problem as they could divert one of the Plymouth trains every four hours into Paignton but this would mean a 2 hour gap in between Plymouth services, or does everything have to go to Plymouth? Take summer Saturdays for example they have 2 hourly gaps in between the Plymouths so they can serve Torquay and Paignton.
Another point, why are XC proposing for these changes when right at the end of their franchise which ends next December?

 

[Starmill]

It seems unlikely that the service to Plymouth would be reduced.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I dont think stock would be a problem as they could divert one of the Plymouth trains every four hours into Paignton but this would mean a 2 hour gap in between Plymouth services, or does everything have to go to Plymouth? Take summer Saturdays for example they have 2 hourly gaps in between the Plymouths so they can serve Torquay and Paignton.
Another point, why are XC proposing for these changes when right at the end of their franchise which ends next December?

Because traffic to Torbay would be minimal, certainly compared to Plymouth. You would also possibly throw out some connections down into Cornwall, and would also mess up all the unit diagrams given how much shorter it is to run to Paignton (it is roughly 2h45 for a XC unit to reappear at Exeter if it turns at Plymouth, Paignton is 45 mins each way!). Further, traincrew are based out of Plymouth, so the numbers may need to go up to cover the extra time taken to get to Paignton, and if things like PNBs can't be taken there you could just create more problems.

 

[221129]

I dont think stock would be a problem as they could divert one of the Plymouth trains every four hours into Paignton but this would mean a 2 hour gap in between Plymouth services, or does everything have to go to Plymouth? Take summer Saturdays for example they have 2 hourly gaps in between the Plymouths so they can serve Torquay and Paignton.
Another point, why are XC proposing for these changes when right at the end of their franchise which ends next December?

Not going to happen. Paignton does not need the capacity normally.

 

[ainsworth74]

1900 Glasgow Central to Newcastle will continue to York arriving 2235.

Oh that's useful. Helps fill the gap between the 1935 and the 2100 for passengers from Edinburgh wanting stations south of Newcastle.

 

[swt_passenger]

Another point, why are XC proposing for these changes when right at the end of their franchise which ends next December?

The current extension actually ends in Dec 2019. The proposals were announced at a time when the alterations would run for 2 years of the 3 year extension. But I'd suggest that as they had already been agreed with DfT beforehand they are likely to run on at least another year or even two into the next franchise period.

The 3 year extension can also be extended at the SofS's discretion by 11 periods, so another 44 weeks.

 

[Starmill]

Oh that's useful. Helps fill the gap between the 1935 and the 2100 for passengers from Edinburgh wanting stations south of Newcastle.

Yup. It also perfectly fills a gap at 2136 in services from Newcastle to Durham, Darlington and York between 2114 (London KX) and 2155 (Manchester Airport).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I thought this timetable change was cancelled? I was told we were keeping the much loved by me Guildford service anyway.

 

[Starmill]

It hasn't been 'cancelled' - it will take place in May instead and be substantially different to the original proposal. This is explained upthread.

 

[TheWalrus]

They can't. That's the point. Lack of stock, crew and paths.

Couldn’t they go as far as Bristol every hour with every two hours one extends to Paignton?

 

[30907]

Couldn’t they go as far as Bristol every hour with every two hours one extends to Paignton?

Isn't that what they do now, and XC want to go half hourly to Exeter instead?

 

[221129]

Isn't that what they do now, and XC want to go half hourly to Exeter instead?

Exactly. And it's not just XC that wants it to happen.

 

[TheWalrus]

They don’t do Paignton every two hours I don’t think.

 

[berneyarms]

They certainly don’t.
XC departures from Paignton are at 07:02, 10:07, 14:04 and 20:14.

 

[swt_passenger]

The reasons for not serving Paignton are well explained in the consultation, and repeated earlier in the thread. I doubt anything much has been changed regarding that part of the route; it will just be delayed...

 

[Mark62]

Not going to happen. Paignton does not need the capacity normally.

Years ago on summer Saturday's from Torbay and on Friday nights and Saturdays to Torbay there were at leat 40 extra cross country trains. All with 12 coaches as a minimum. Such was the demand that relief train ran to support the Saturday extras.
These trains ran full all summer. Where did these passengers go to?
They were deliberately weaned off travelling in the run up to privatisation. Franchise holders don't want to run these trains due to the necessity of maintaining spare stock in the week. They were never interested in this kind of railway. So the whole summer Saturday's service was deliberate trun down to almost nothing so that investing in a franchise was more attractive and profits could be maximised.
Profits before people again.
Arriva have allowed their HST fleet to remain largely idle over the years. They can make more by hiring out to other TOC. Why has it taken all this time for them to use the hst fleet properly.
I feel sorry for people who travel like cattle on their voyagers. They are appalling and unfit for the purpose intended.

 

[The47Wanderer]

Where did these passengers go to?
They were deliberately weaned off travelling in the run up to privatisation.

Not completely down to that; the Low cost carrier and cheaper package holidays meant, and still means, more people traveling abroad for their summer jollies.

 

[STKKK46]

Where did these passengers go to?

You may well find that they went to Spain, Portugal & other foreign destinations.

There has been a general demise in visitors going to all UK resorts for years, I don't think 4 Cross Country trains will 12 carriages would be full these days, let alone 40. XC just don't have the stock to serve Paignton all year round.

 

[sprinterguy]

They can make more by hiring out to other TOC.

Crosscountry have only very rarely hired their HST sets or power cars out to other operators, and typically only for a day at a time, perhaps two at a stretch.

 

[Wirewiper]

Four XCs a day to Paignton isn't needed.

However a selected service including a late morning departure from Paignton (c. 11.00) and a mid-afternoon arrival (c. 15.00), at least as far as the Midlands, ties in nicely with check-out and check-in times for this important leisure, tourism and conference destination where there is virtually year-round demand. Direct services for at least this market segment are important to an area whose economy relies heavily on tourism.

 

[30907]

Years ago on summer Saturday's from Torbay and on Friday nights and Saturdays to Torbay there were at leat 40 extra cross country trains. All with 12 coaches as a minimum. Such was the demand that relief train ran to support the Saturday extras.
These trains ran full all summer. Where did these passengers go to?
They were deliberately weaned off travelling in the run up to privatisation

Well, in 1959 there were 40 booked cross country trains through Taunton from all points West. And yes, there were occasionally untimetabled reliefs on a handful of busy Saturdays. But that was 35 years before privatisation.

 

[Confused147]

Years ago on summer Saturday's from Torbay and on Friday nights and Saturdays to Torbay there were at leat 40 extra cross country trains. All with 12 coaches as a minimum. Such was the demand that relief train ran to support the Saturday extras.
These trains ran full all summer. Where did these passengers go to?
They were deliberately weaned off travelling in the run up to privatisation. Franchise holders don't want to run these trains due to the necessity of maintaining spare stock in the week. They were never interested in this kind of railway. So the whole summer Saturday's service was deliberate trun down to almost nothing so that investing in a franchise was more attractive and profits could be maximised.
Profits before people again.
Arriva have allowed their HST fleet to remain largely idle over the years. They can make more by hiring out to other TOC. Why has it taken all this time for them to use the hst fleet properly.
I feel sorry for people who travel like cattle on their voyagers. They are appalling and unfit for the purpose intended.

35 years ago rail fares were reasonable and were not rising year after year so now all them passengers have been forced onto the motorway

 

[iantherev]

It’s wider than just that. Compare all the hotels and holiday accommodation advertising in Torbay 35 years ago and see how many are still running today. Many of the holiday camps which were thriving when my wife was growing up are now housing estates.

 

[Ianno87]

Four XCs a day to Paignton isn't needed.

However a selected service including a late morning departure from Paignton (c. 11.00) and a mid-afternoon arrival (c. 15.00), at least as far as the Midlands, ties in nicely with check-out and check-in times for this important leisure, tourism and conference destination where there is virtually year-round demand. Direct services for at least this market segment are important to an area whose economy relies heavily on tourism.

If there was a convenient NE>SW service passing through Birmingham southbound in the morning peak that required a Double Voyager to meet demand, that would probably be a convenient way of providing a mid-morning service at Paignton in marginal time (splitting at Exeter/Newton Abbot)

Vice-versa for a northbound evening peak Double Voyager working through Birmingham would be ideal to provide an afternoon service at Paignton in marginal time.

Trouble is the actual services at these times I believe correspond roughly to the current booked HST workings (so splits and joins are obviously out!). The HST workings also correspond to their maintenance regime, so cannot 'just' be moved to other duties.

So do people prefer HSTs on XC, *or* a through service to Paignton (not both...)

 

[Deafdoggie]

It’s wider than just that. Compare all the hotels and holiday accommodation advertising in Torbay 35 years ago and see how many are still running today. Many of the holiday camps which were thriving when my wife was growing up are now housing estates.

There are, of course, still some open. But those that are, don't do Saturday-Saturday holidays the same any more. Many do Friday to Monday, or Monday to Friday, or a combination of these. So Summer Saturday trains are not needed the same. But the railway took them off, rather than adapt to changing demands

 

[sprinterguy]

If there was a convenient NE>SW service passing through Birmingham southbound in the morning peak that required a Double Voyager to meet demand, that would probably be a convenient way of providing a mid-morning service at Paignton in marginal time (splitting at Exeter/Newton Abbot)

Vice-versa for a northbound evening peak Double Voyager working through Birmingham would be ideal to provide an afternoon service at Paignton in marginal time.

Trouble is the actual services at these times I believe correspond roughly to the current booked HST workings (so splits and joins are obviously out!). The HST workings also correspond to their maintenance regime, so cannot 'just' be moved to other duties.

So do people prefer HSTs on XC, *or* a through service to Paignton (not both...)

The vast majority of Birmingham commuters would be happy with a doubled up Voyager through New Street during the peak in connection with a daily Paignton train, as it'd mean they could all (probably) get a seat. It's only those of us in the know who specifically prefer HSTs, and I recognise that we're a bit of a special case. There's sufficient opportunity between the current daily HST diagrams to accommodate such an out and back working, and there may be greater flexibility in the HST diagrams once their depot moves south out of Scotland (Although conversely they'll also have more daily diagrams to work around).