Proposed CrossCountry December 2017 timetable change consultation

[Martin222002]

XC shouldn't be a commuter operation, and having it drag an extra 5 coaches from Penzance to Manchester (or whatever) to carry Stockport-Picc commuters (or whatever) is an utter waste of money. Get the commuters off with some "u" and "s" stops, and provide proper commuter services for commuters.

(XC-lite Class 170 services excepted, but really in my view those need moving to LM, ATW or EMT as applicable)

While you have a point for commuters out of Manchester, there very limited options for commuters on the Derby-Sheffield-Leeds corridor.

 

[Carntyne]

I expect Scotrail would love it if it wasnt as they could then quietly remove one of their services leaving XC to take up the slack and lets face it, the DMU fleat will still be stretched in December despite the 385s beginning to enter service as the refurbishment programme is running late and other opperaters, mainly Northern will be wanting the units they have been promised pritty soon.

Which refurb programme is running late? The first units don't return to the owners until Dec 2018.

 

[Bletchleyite]

While you have a point for commuters out of Manchester, there very limited options for commuters on the Derby-Sheffield-Leeds corridor.

There is, but note the bit about providing those services where not provided. Let's let XC be a pure InterCity service, and it'll need far less capacity.

 

[D1009]

There is, but note the bit about providing those services where not provided. Let's let XC be a pure InterCity service, and it'll need far less capacity.

Where do you draw the line between commuter and InterCity services?

 

[Ianno87]

There is, but note the bit about providing those services where not provided. Let's let XC be a pure InterCity service, and it'll need far less capacity.

That isn't going to be solved by December this year! For the time being, XC will have to size their trains according to where demand is on them. Which means in the peak into Leeds, not into Paignton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where do you draw the line between commuter and InterCity services?

Primarily where they cause excessive short-distance peak demand around towns and cities and therefore inefficient use of rolling stock or severe overcrowding that damages the InterCity travelling experience.

A classic example is GWR services between Paddington and Reading (though I realise that is a hard nut to crack due to the massive demand, the ideal would be an adequate fast 12-car EMU service and a complete ban on Paddington<->Reading passengers on the HSTs). Or VTWC services between Euston and MKC. Or the same between Manchester and Stockport. Or TPE Scottish services between Manchester and Preston. There are many.

 

[Starmill]

Primarily where they cause excessive short-distance peak demand around towns and cities and therefore inefficient use of rolling stock or severe overcrowding that damages the InterCity travelling experience.

The key point, as you've been told again and again, is passengers travelling to Leeds in the morning peak and from it in the evening peak. The places they're going to are York, Wakefield and Sheffield. The biggest problem is the Leeds to Sheffield flow. Now where are all of these people going to go if they cannot use the XC service? How will you prevent them from using the XC service? Skip Wakefield? But Wakefield generates some intercity passengers, as the numbers who use the London services show, and Westgate station was refurbished to cater to their needs. York and Sheffield are major British cities that people from all over the XC network will want to travel to so how will you restrict the calls at those stations? Even if you were successful, where is there any rolling stock to run additional services instead, who will run them and where?

 

[TC60054]

Aren't CrossCountry providing extra peak time Derby to Leeds services anyway to help with the commuter flow?

 

[Idon'tKnow]

Would it not make sense for a current hourly Nottingham turbostar to continue from Derby to Sheffield (not continuing to Nottingham) calling at Chesterfield, then having less of the Newcastle / Scotland services call at chesterfield to increase capacity, and the shortfall for Nottingham services could be replaced by extending some Leicester services there?

 

[43074]

Would it not make sense for a current hourly Nottingham turbostar to continue from Derby to Sheffield (not continuing to Nottingham) calling at Chesterfield, then having less of the Newcastle / Scotland services call at chesterfield to increase capacity, and the shortfall for Nottingham services could be replaced by extending some Leicester services there?

No, the Chesterfield stop is well used in the North East/South West services because the station has a large catchment area, it's the same reason all EMT Mainline services call there. Going via Leicester would also be much slower for anyone travelling between Nottingham & Birmingham, which frankly is the last thing that service needs.

 

[brompton rail]

No, the Chesterfield stop is well used in the North East/South West services because the station has a large catchment area, it's the same reason all EMT Mainline services call there. Going via Leicester would also be much slower for anyone travelling between Nottingham & Birmingham, which frankly is the last thing that service needs.

The only Birmingham/ Nottingham solution that would improve matters is diverting Nottingham services to run direct between Burton and Long Eaton but that would reduce Derby / Nottingham to one stopper and one semi fast per hour. Remember Trent Barton's Red Arrow coach service runs every ten minutes throughout the daytime, so there is demand for Derby / Nottingham.

Also - 5 trains an hour Derby to Sheffield, with 7 or 8 per hour between Chesterfield and Sheffield- a bit too much I suggest.

 

[MCR247]

Would it not make sense for a current hourly Nottingham turbostar to continue from Derby to Sheffield (not continuing to Nottingham) calling at Chesterfield, then having less of the Newcastle / Scotland services call at chesterfield to increase capacity, and the shortfall for Nottingham services could be replaced by extending some Leicester services there?

No not at all

 

[ashworth]

The only Birmingham/ Nottingham solution that would improve matters is diverting Nottingham services to run direct between Burton and Long Eaton but that would reduce Derby / Nottingham to one stopper and one semi fast per hour.

Nottingham to Birmingham ought to have a faster service. How much time would be saved by running one service an hour via Castle Donnington missing out Derby?
The missing train between Nottingham and Derby could be provided by running the Derby to Crewe train to/from Nottingham like it really should do.

 

[59CosG95]

This was probably covered somewhere else on the internet, but I remember hearing something once that XC apparently want to divert all their services via Coventry. Is there any more evidence towards that particular point?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You asked the same here not two months ago. I believe The Planner pointed you in the right direction?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140037

 

[The Planner]

I might have to put it in my signature along with "no, you can't run a Leamington Nuneaton train"

 

[59CosG95]

You asked the same here not two months ago. I believe The Planner pointed you in the right direction?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=140037

Goodness me, my memory really is going, and I'm only 21! hock: Thanks both of you for getting me back on the straight and narrow.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[michael74]

In the latest Modern Railways there is an article about CrossCountry... With regard to the proposed withdrawal of all Paignton services except the 0700 ex Paignton the article reports that...

"...CrossCountry proposed cutting back it's more occasional services to Paignton, Bath Spa and Guildford to concentrate capacity on its core routes. In the case of Paignton, this created some disquiet in the south west and a modified proposal has now been agreed..."

Does anyone know what the modified proposal is and what XC trains Paignton will now get???

Its not all that occasional, its currently about x4 trains a day from Paignton to New Street. Not only does it provide a fast means to get north (although most people here in South Devon have no concept of the North further than Bristol ) they are a good 'local' train getting to Exeter without suffering death by cattle truck. I understand economies of scale, but I think XC are cutting services back too much, we can only hope that GWR pick up the spare paths and at least create a fast service from Paignton and Torquay to Exeter.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Its not all that occasional, its currently about x4 trains a day from Paignton to New Street. Not only does it provide a fast means to get north (although most people here in South Devon have no concept of the North further than Bristol ) they are a good 'local' train getting to Exeter without suffering death by cattle truck. I understand economies of scale, but I think XC are cutting services back too much, we can only hope that GWR pick up the spare paths and at least create a fast service from Paignton and Torquay to Exeter.

The article makes it quite clear that XC want to serve these places. They want to be a true XC franchise serving these stations and giving more journey options without a change. However capacity constraints are somewhat restricting them!

 

[michael74]

The article makes it quite clear that XC want to serve these places. They want to be a true XC franchise serving these stations and giving more journey options without a change. However capacity constraints are somewhat restricting them!

Thank you for that unfortunately I could not read the artical as there was no link, does it elude to what sort of Paignton services they are proposing?

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[michael74]

No link provided as it's in Modern Railways magazine... No details of the proposed service in the article only the few lines I quoted above...

Ok, thanks. In all it does seem a little bit more positive than the original service proposals for Paignton and Torquay.

 

[MatthewRead]

Its not all that occasional, its currently about x4 trains a day from Paignton to New Street. Not only does it provide a fast means to get north (although most people here in South Devon have no concept of the North further than Bristol ) they are a good 'local' train getting to Exeter without suffering death by cattle truck. I understand economies of scale, but I think XC are cutting services back too much, we can only hope that GWR pick up the spare paths and at least create a fast service from Paignton and Torquay to Exeter.

They mustn't do that those local trains are already crowded enough since South west Trains did away with services west of Exeter. Hope the new franchise re-considers it to provide more capacity.

 

[The Ham]

They mustn't do that those local trains are already crowded enough since South west Trains did away with services west of Exeter. Hope the new franchise re-considers it to provide more capacity.

This is where the ability to do portion working with the 80x's could come into its own.

First off run a few of the extra Plymouth/Cornish services as 10 coach trains to Totness and then split them to serve Torbay as well.

Then to provide extra capacity to Plymouth/Cornwall take the Torbay services and split them as well.

Then finally, extends services from London to Bristol to Torbay to increase capacity there.

In doing so both South Devon and Cornwall see an increase in frequency AND capacity. However, other than the extended services from Bristol which may only be 2 or 3 per day and could take the paths of the lost XC services, there's no more services running through Exeter and Dawlish.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

This is where the ability to do portion working with the 80x's could come into its own.

First off run a few of the extra Plymouth/Cornish services as 10 coach trains to Totness and then split them to serve Torbay as well.

Then to provide extra capacity to Plymouth/Cornwall take the Torbay services and split them as well.

Then finally, extends services from London to Bristol to Torbay to increase capacity there.

In doing so both South Devon and Cornwall see an increase in frequency AND capacity. However, other than the extended services from Bristol which may only be 2 or 3 per day and could take the paths of the lost XC services, there's no more services running through Exeter and Dawlish.

You'd probably prefer to combine and divide at Exeter or Newton Abbott than Totnes as you have full length platforms at those stations.

You get a stopping service going in front of the non stop service by 10-15 minutes, just as SWR do on the Bournemouth road in the morning where a Poole service runs up all shacks to Southampton, the following service from Weymouth, runs non stop from Bournemouth to Southampton and attaches to it

In the evening the situation is reversed and non stop service goes first and the stopping service follows.

 

[dk1]

Yesterday's 5-car 10:06 Paignton to Manchester was well loaded from Torquay. By Dawlish there where very few available seats & although some alighted at St.Davids the majority of my coach who boarded at the start of the journey where still there after I left the train at Temple Meads proving the point that these XC services are popular with long distance passengers who prefer them to the often crowded Plymouth/Cornwall starting connections at Newton Abbot.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Does Paignton see much long-distance traffic outside of summer season?

 

[dk1]

Does Paignton see much long-distance traffic outside of summer season?

Torbay has a pretty long season that starts April & can still be quite busy in October. I usually stay at the Grand in Torquay & that can be full throughout the year. There is not only a large population but also a fair bit of retirement to this lovely part of the UK similar to Bournemouth so creates lots of VFR (visiting friends & relations). If you look at the timetable it has always supported through workings from the main line all week long rather than the typical Saturday only traffic of yesteryear.

 

[swt_passenger]

They mustn't do that those local trains are already crowded enough since South west Trains did away with services west of Exeter. Hope the new franchise re-considers it to provide more capacity.

When SWT ceased serving stations west of Exeter (only a few times a day) most of the services were replaced by FGW locals with similar capacity. There wasn't a significant change in overall capacity, and a lot has probably changed since 2009 or whenever it was. I'd be very surprised if you can lay the blame for todays issues at SWT - and in any case they were only doing what DfT had already decided, it wasn't SWT's decision to make.

These were the alterations to FGW services from Dec 2009 as a result:

"Following the withdrawal of those trains currently worked by Stagecoach
South Western west of Exeter, the following weekday package of changes will
be made to FGW services to cover the traffic:
0800 SX Cardiff Central -Taunton is extended to Paignton;
1407 SX Taunton-Cardiff Central starts back from Paignton at 1247 calling
additionally at Tiverton Parkway;
0900 SX Cardiff Central -Taunton is extended to Plymouth calling Tiverton
Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Newton Abbot, thence all stations to Plymouth;
An additional 1748 SX Plymouth-Exeter St Davids service runs;
A 1710 SX Exeter St Davids-St James Park service will operate. This then
forms a 1739 St James Park - Paignton calling all stations;
A 1912 SX Paignton - Exeter St Davids train operates;
1508 SX Plymouth-Newton Abbot (all stations) and 1600 SX Newton Abbot -
Plymouth (all stations) trains will operate In conjunction with a 1610 SX
Exeter-Plymouth this will provide an enhanced level of Ivybridge calls in
the early evening to service student flowsfrom the college; and
The 1008 SX Taunton-Cardiff is to start back from Exeter St Davids at 0933
and the 1300 SX Cardiff-Taunton is extended to Exeter St Davids, both
calling at Tiverton Parkway.