Proposed Dublin Bus Changes

[higthomas]

If just noticed the plans for radical changes to the Dublin bus network. Broadly following the fewer more frequent core routes with more orbital lines.

BusConnects aims to overhaul the current bus system in the Dublin region by:

• building a network of “next generation” bus corridors on the busiest bus routes to make bus journeys faster, predictable and reliable;
• introducing Bus Rapid Transit, a higher quality of bus system, on three of the busiest corridors;
• completely redesigning the network of bus routes to provide a more efficient network, connecting more places and carrying more passengers;
• developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using credit and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment accounts and making payment much more convenient;
• implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed up passenger boarding times;
• revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare structure, allowing seamless movement between different transport services without financial penalty;
• implementing a new bus livery providing a modern look and feel to the new bus system;
• rolling out new bus stops with better signage and information and increasing the provision of additional bus shelters; and
• transitioning - starting now - to a new bus fleet using low-emission vehicle technologies.

More info here: https://busconnects.ie

I think it looks quite good, especially the much more simple but frequent central area network and spines ideas. I think if they're going to do all these changes to the London bus network, there might be some stuff to learn here.

 

[Hophead]

These changes have been drawn up by a transport consultant called Jarrett Walker, whose website is Human Transit ("The professional blog of public transit consultant Jarrett Walker. Since 1991 I’ve been a consulting transit planner, helping to design transit networks and policies for a huge range of communities. My goal here is to start conversations about how transit works, and how we can use it to create better cities and towns.").

There are quite a number of Dublin-tagged posts on the Human Transit website. You may want to start with "Dublin: A Bus Network for a More Liberated City"

For 18 months, our firm has been working with National Transport Authority of Ireland (NTA) to develop a redesign of Dublin’s bus network. We studied every bus route, drew hundreds of maps of data and ideas, and spent a week locked in a conference room with experts from NTA, the bus operating company Dublin Bus, and staff from the local governments. Once we had a rough plan we spent more months refining and analysing. It’s been a long voyage to this point.

The plan is now released for public comment. The plan revises the entire network, creating a much simpler pattern that people can learn, remember, and explain. A vast high-frequency network, in a spiderweb grid pattern, extends across most of the city, dramatically improving travel time for journeys in many directions.

Our key goal was improving access. We wanted to speed up people’s trips, but we prefer to say that we wanted to expand the range of places that could be reached in a fixed amount of time. We wanted people to get to more places, sooner, so that they would have more opportunities in their lives. In short, we want public transport to give people more freedom.

Under the plan, the average Dubliner can get to 20% more useful places in 30 minutes. “Useful places” means jobs and student enrolments, which are easy to count with Irish data, but of course you can expect similar results for shopping and for all kinds of other destinations that give value to our lives.

 

[Megafuss]

Shades of Chris Grayling here https://www.thesun.ie/news/3152817/...busconnects-despite-being-transport-minister/

To be fair, the plans do intend to increase the number of buses. I do wonder if orbital routes are actually THAT popular though (Birmingham Outer Orbit aside)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Shades of Chris Grayling here https://www.thesun.ie/news/3152817/...busconnects-despite-being-transport-minister/

To be fair, the plans do intend to increase the number of buses. I do wonder if orbital routes are actually THAT popular though (Birmingham Outer Orbit aside)

The traditional model of bus networks is naturally aligned to the need to get people to the main traffic objectives. That invariably means from the outskirts into the centre of town.

Now, that's not to say that there aren't major traffic objectives that aren't in the centre of towns - typically, out of town shopping centres and hospitals and possibly major educational establishments. These ARE traffic objectives and demand DOES exist yet rarely anywhere near the level of the main road into the centre type routes. In recent years, First in Bristol attempted to reassert themselves against Rotala through registering commercially routes that linked various suburban areas in the north of the city viz

• 16 Kingswood to Bristol Parkway
• 17 Southmead Hospital to Keynsham
• 18 Avonmouth to Southmead Hospital to Emersons Green

In three years, these were upgraded with new fleet (18) and route branded (17) and clearly had some demand especially in peak. However, only the 17 still survives commercially. The 18 Avonmouth to Southmead exists as a tendered operation (with Stagecoach) whilst the others have gone without replacement. This in a city where bus patronage is growing.

 

[edwin_m]

If just noticed the plans for radical changes to the Dublin bus network. Broadly following the fewer more frequent core routes with more orbital lines.



More info here: https://busconnects.ie

I think it looks quite good, especially the much more simple but frequent central area network and spines ideas. I think if they're going to do all these changes to the London bus network, there might be some stuff to learn here.

London and Dublin are quite different. London has rail on nearly every radial corridor so buses are mainly to fill the gaps and provide for short distance journeys in the centre where it's not worth catching a Tube. In Dublin there are only three rail and three Luas radial corridors (excluding Docklands as it's not really a suburb) so for many parts of the city the bus is the primary public transport route to the centre. Hence the spine bus routes need some of the characteristics of railways in inner London (at least as they should be, not necessarily as they are!) - fast, frequent and easy to understand.

 

[radamfi]

Arguably, this thread should be in the "International Transport" section, although there is a case for it remaining here if the purpose of the thread is to "learn lessons". Although Dublin is not noted for a place of transport excellence.

I do wonder if orbital routes are actually THAT popular though (Birmingham Outer Orbit aside)

If the aim is to provide a basic service for people who don't have cars then a fully hub and spoke network is the cheapest way to provide that. If there is sufficient budget to try and provide an alternative for some car trips, given that most car trips don't go to the city centre, then it makes sense to provide routes that mean that people don't have to make long journeys in and out of the city centre.

 

[deltic]

Shades of Chris Grayling here https://www.thesun.ie/news/3152817/...busconnects-despite-being-transport-minister/

To be fair, the plans do intend to increase the number of buses. I do wonder if orbital routes are actually THAT popular though (Birmingham Outer Orbit aside)

Manchester's famous semi-orbital 53 route used to operate every 4 minutes during the day - now down to every 30 minutes

 

[Bletchleyite]

Manchester's famous semi-orbital 53 route used to operate every 4 minutes during the day - now down to every 30 minutes

This may be to do with being operated by that famous driver of rack and ruin, First.

 

[edwin_m]

Birmingham's inner and outer circles still appear to be running on fairly reasonable headways.

 

[Typhoon]

I do wonder if orbital routes are actually THAT popular though (Birmingham Outer Orbit aside)

Birmingham's 8A/C (Inner Circle)!
Not as popular as it once was, when it linked inner city residences to industrial areas such as Saltley, Aston Cross and Hockley but still manages a 12 minute service and certainly was well used in peak hours, particularly to get to schools, the Jewellery Quarter and Five Ways (offices and some shops) when I moved from Brum about five years ago.

EDIT: beat me to it.

 

[Redmike]

Manchester's famous semi-orbital 53 route used to operate every 4 minutes during the day - now down to every 30 minutes

First haven't helped by chopping and changing constantly but it's also worth pointing out there has been massive depopulation along the route in the last 30 years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This may be to do with being operated by that famous driver of rack and ruin, First.

As this blogger (https://mancunian1001.wordpress.com...er-2-53-pendleton-old-trafford-cheetham-hill/) stated, there are perhaps a few other changes:

“Throughout the late 1940s to early 1950s, it was a popular route for workers at the Bradford Colliery, Crossley’s works in Higher Openshaw and at Trafford Park industrial estate (some journeys were extended to serve the industrial estate). For football fans, it connected Old Trafford with Maine Road (today it connects with the Etihad Stadium). It was a popular bus route for Mancunians visiting Belle Vue Zoological Gardens, its speedway stadium, greyhound track, and amusement park. Even in the mid 1970s, it operated every four minutes during Monday to Saturday daytimes.

Recent deindustrialisation and social changes have resulted in a sharp reduction of its frequency. By 1986, it was every 10 minutes; every 15 minutes in 1998 with an extension to The Trafford Centre. Today, it is half that, with its more modest modern day role as an important link with north and east Manchester.”

Undoubtedly some poor management decisions but also some wider social changes

 

[higthomas]

London and Dublin are quite different. London has rail on nearly every radial corridor so buses are mainly to fill the gaps and provide for short distance journeys in the centre where it's not worth catching a Tube. In Dublin there are only three rail and three Luas radial corridors (excluding Docklands as it's not really a suburb) so for many parts of the city the bus is the primary public transport route to the centre. Hence the spine bus routes need some of the characteristics of railways in inner London (at least as they should be, not necessarily as they are!) - fast, frequent and easy to understand.

Whilst that's partly true, it's worthwhile noting that most of London's busiest routes are still radial routes, mainly on corridor to poorer parts of the city. One notable exception being the 140 an orbital route from Heathrow to Harrow.

For the complete list see: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-service-usage.xlsx

 

[edwin_m]

Whilst that's partly true, it's worthwhile noting that most of London's busiest routes are still radial routes, mainly on corridor to poorer parts of the city. One notable exception being the 140 an orbital route from Heathrow to Harrow.

For the complete list see: http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-service-usage.xlsx

Not disputing that. Without spending a lot of time going through that I'd guess that London has only a handful of radial corridors with no rail alternative, and those would be the busiest routes in that list. In Dublin most of the radial corridors rely on buses. The proposed Dublin network has 11 radial suburban bus corridors (these are combined into 6 cross-city spines) and as they don't even seem to count the Heuston lines as a proper radial there are actually only five rail radials.

 

[radamfi]

mainly on corridor to poorer parts of the city.

If the busiest routes are to the poorer areas, maybe the bus patronage is artificially inflated due to the fare structure? The 25 has long been the busiest route, yet it is closely mirrored by Tube and National Rail lines. A single trip completed entirely by bus usually costs £1.50 whereas a single trip from Zone 2 to Zone 1 involving a change from bus to Tube costs £4.40 peak, £3.90 off-peak. Even a direct Tube from Zone 2 to Zone 1 costs £2.90 peak and £2.40 off-peak.

 

[Deerfold]

If the busiest routes are to the poorer areas, maybe the bus patronage is artificially inflated due to the fare structure? The 25 has long been the busiest route, yet it is closely mirrored by Tube and National Rail lines. A single trip completed entirely by bus usually costs £1.50 whereas a single trip from Zone 2 to Zone 1 involving a change from bus to Tube costs £4.40 peak, £3.90 off-peak. Even a direct Tube from Zone 2 to Zone 1 costs £2.90 peak and £2.40 off-peak.

Undoubtedly.

However with the Central line being at capacity for much of the day, it's also useful for planners for this to take some of the pressure off the Central Line.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Undoubtedly.

However with the Central line being at capacity for much of the day, it's also useful for planners for this to take some of the pressure off the Central Line.

Whilst price may well be a factor for some people, it would be interesting to see the average journey length/top 20 journey flows etc. Given the length of the route, imagine that would be quite illuminating.

 

[edwin_m]

Undoubtedly.

However with the Central line being at capacity for much of the day, it's also useful for planners for this to take some of the pressure off the Central Line.

I understand the 25 is due for major frequency cuts when Crossrail opens. Or, now, before Crossrail opens.

 

[higthomas]

I understand the 25 is due for major frequency cuts when Crossrail opens. Or, now, before Crossrail opens.

Indeed, in fact it happened on the 15th September. It's frequency was halved between Mile end and Ilford. Crazily it's now less frequent than almost all other major routes in the city.

 

[berneyarms]

Not sure what most of these posts have to do with the Dublin City bus network redesign?

Tomorrow is the final day for submissions on the plan, which the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has already said in the Irish Parliament will have to be heavily modified due to public resistance.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not sure what most of these posts have to do with the Dublin City bus network redesign?

Tomorrow is the final day for submissions on the plan, which the Taoiseach Leo Varadkar has already said in the Irish Parliament will have to be heavily modified due to public resistance.

Yeah, we all got a little side tracked on the merits/pit falls of orbital routes and it sort of progressed from there

I would guess that there will be the balance to be struck in these proposals to be able to fund what they want to do but more importantly, to be sensitive to the existing traffic patterns.