Proposed Extension of "EMR Electrics" beyond Corby

[59CosG95]

[CRAYONISTA]While I think it's fantastic that EMR will be running 2tph on the soon-to-be-electrified Corby Branch of the MML, I've been thinking that it could go a little further. My proposal is to extend 1tph of the 2 proposed to Peterborough, via a new chord linking the Corby-Manton line with the former Rugby & Stamford Railway, using its old alignment between approximately Seaton, and the Birmingham-Peterborough line at Luffenham.
See below: (Red for new alignment, black for Corby-Manton, blue for Birmingham-Peterborough)


In theory, this could better connect Corby with Stamford & Peterborough by rail, and would involve an extension of OLE to Peterborough and Leicester from Corby (on all 3 sides of this proposed triangle); there is also potential to use it as a diversionary route for freight away from the Market Harborough corridor.

Indeed, the other tph to Corby could be extended to Leicester under the wires in this way, calling at Oakham, Melton Mowbray, and Syston, thus giving every station on the Leicester-Peterborough corridor 3 trains an hour.
And maybe, just maybe...a parkway station at Luffenham (if the demand is there)?
[/CRAYONISTA]

 

[59CosG95]

Obviously, the many tunnels on the Manton-Corby route would need significant work to accommodate OLE, but (to my knowledge) Manton Tunnel should be easier, given its W10 clearance.
The main wiring obstacles, to me, seem to be Harringworth Viaduct (given its Grade II listing) and the cut/cover tunnel east of Stamford, as well as all the stations on the route (footbridges etc.).

 

[Tobbes]

An interesting idea. Beyond the issues above, what market will it serve? KGX - PBO will remain much faster than STP - PBO, and indeed Luton-PBO would probably be quicker via London. How much Corby - PBO demand do think there is?

 

[59CosG95]

An interesting idea. Beyond the issues above, what market will it serve? KGX - PBO will remain much faster than STP - PBO, and indeed Luton-PBO would probably be quicker via London. How much Corby - PBO demand do think there is?

The main market I'm hoping to tap into is commuters between Kettering & Peterborough; while it may not be the fastest, it would be a much greener commute for all the towns involved.

 

[JonathanH]

Draw another map showing the relative positions of Kettering, Corby, Manton, Stamford and Peterborough. There is no chance of extending Corby services to Peterborough. It would be easier to encourage potential commuters between those destinations to work from home.

 

[59CosG95]

Draw another map showing the relative positions of Kettering, Corby, Oakham, Stamford and Peterborough. There is no chance of extending Corby services to Peterborough. It would be easier to encourage potential commuters between those destinations to work from home.

Yes, they are fairly far apart as the crow flies, but my suggestion is more about local connectivity (e.g. Corby - Luffenham, or Stamford - Peterborough) than mandating people to sit for near 2 hours on a Peterborough - St Pancras train. Thameslink don't get many Peterborough - Horsham punters in comparison to Horsham - London or Peterborough - London...

 

[JonathanH]

Yes, they are fairly far apart as the crow flies, but my suggestion is more about local connectivity (e.g. Corby - Luffenham, or Stamford - Peterborough) than mandating people to sit for near 2 hours on a Peterborough - St Pancras train.

Or 2 hours on the X4 bus

Stamford to Peterborough already has a train service (which I expect gets busy in the peaks when a two-car unit is used). You could extend the Ipswich to Peterborough service to Stamford if you thought it was going to pay for the extra unit needed. It probably wouldn't.

Thameslink don't get many Peterborough - Horsham punters in comparison to Horsham - London or Peterborough - London..

I suspect they get none. However, they do fill the train up between Stevenage and Redhill and people board and leave the train all along the route. Plus, the extra infrastructure was built at the busiest point on the route. What you are suggesting is more consistent with extending the Peterborough to Horsham trains to Boston via Spalding or to Worthing via Arundel.

 

[Tobbes]

The main market I'm hoping to tap into is commuters between Kettering & Peterborough; while it may not be the fastest, it would be a much greener commute for all the towns involved.

It's not a bad idea in principle (at least given some of the ideas around here) but it would require a *lot* of housing to be built to make it viable. Fortunately, it is a smaller project that taking over the Nene Valley and extending it back to Northampton, but I still think it's unlikely.

 

[alistairlees]

I’ve often thought the same. This provides direct connectivity between Peterborough / Stamford and Corby / Kettering / Wellingborough / Bedford and Luton. At what should be relatively modest cost. The towns on the midland mainline are curiously badly connected except radially from London.

Bedford to Peterborough would be around 65 minutes (assuming Corby to Stamford takes 20 minutes), as opposed to between 90 and 125 minutes today (the longer time is that typically shown in journey planners because of the Kings Cross to St Pancras interchange, though people in the know will be able to do it at the shorter time).

Driving takes minimum of 45 minutes and up to 80 minutes in the busiest times of the day, according to google maps, so the train would suddenly become reasonably competitive. The rail fare also does not need to bear the via London premium either.

Bedford has a population of around 100,000, and Peterborough around 200,000, so we are not talking inconsequential towns here. Connectivity options to and from the north would also be improved for Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering, as well as dramatically so for Corby.

 

[JonathanH]

I had a look back through previous threads. This from 2013 suggests that the line through Luffenham might not be easy to reinstate.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-cambridge-section.89921/page-3#post-1587255

Bedford to Peterborough would be around 65 minutes (assuming Corby to Stamford takes 20 minutes), as opposed to between 90 and 125 minutes today (the longer time is that typically shown in journey planners because of the Kings Cross to St Pancras interchange, though people in the know will be able to do it at the shorter time).

Isn't a different bit of new railway line being built which might cut the time for travelling between Bedford and Peterborough?

 

[Tobbes]

I’ve often thought the same. This provides direct connectivity between Peterborough / Stamford and Corby / Kettering / Wellingborough / Bedford and Luton. At what should be relatively modest cost. The towns on the midland mainline are curiously badly connected except radially from London.

Bedford to Peterborough would be around 65 minutes (assuming Corby to Stamford takes 20 minutes), as opposed to between 90 and 125 minutes.

(Snip)

Bedford has a population of around 100,000, and Peterborough around 200,000, so we are not talking inconsequential towns here. Connectivity options to and from the north would also be improved for Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering, as well as dramatically so for Corby.

I largely agree with these setiments- the loss of E-W routes under Beeching has had the effect of reinforcing the magnetism of London at the expense of regional connectivity, which EWR is the most advanced restoration.

Of course, EWR has an internationally competitive economy at each end of the reconstructed route, and a lot of (big and small 'p') political support. What is interesting about this proposal (or a wider Northampton-Wellingborough-Thrapston-P'boro scheme on the old LNWR route) is that it would be far more about housing and new opportunities/regeneration than EWR is (even though EWR will do that, too.) On a purely practicality point, I wonder if you'd do better to go over the Harringworth Viaduct and through the tunnel before turning NE on a new alignment? If I understood the old route, I thought the line towards Luffenham/Stamford passed under the Midland line, so there may be quite a height difference, given the height of Harringworth.

I’ve often thought the same. This provides direct connectivity between Peterborough / Stamford and Corby / Kettering / Wellingborough / Bedford and Luton. At what should be relatively modest cost. The towns on the midland mainline are curiously badly connected except radially from London.

Bedford to Peterborough would be around 65 minutes (assuming Corby to Stamford takes 20 minutes), as opposed to between 90 and 125 minutes today (the longer time is that typically shown in journey planners because of the Kings Cross to St Pancras interchange, though people in the know will be able to do it at the shorter time).

Driving takes minimum of 45 minutes and up to 80 minutes in the busiest times of the day, according to google maps, so the train would suddenly become reasonably competitive. The rail fare also does not need to bear the via London premium either.

Bedford has a population of around 100,000, and Peterborough around 200,000, so we are not talking inconsequential towns here. Connectivity options to and from the north would also be improved for Bedford, Wellingborough and Kettering, as well as dramatically so for Corby.

 

[alistairlees]

I had a look back through previous threads. This from 2013 suggests that the line through Luffenham might not be easy to reinstate.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...d-cambridge-section.89921/page-3#post-1587255

Isn't a different bit of new railway line being built which might cut the time for travelling between Bedford and Peterborough?

Yes, there is now a small amount of housing in the way at luffenham.

East west railway is still evaluating options so far as I know for the central section. Assuming that a station at Sandy is retained (maybe in a different position) then likely journey times between Bedford and Peterborough via this route are about 65 minutes too, assuming an average 15 minute wait at Sandy.

Bedford was just an example. The connectivity benefit also applies to the other towns on the MML.

 

[option]

Could you do it by putting in a curve between Manton & Wing?

About 1.5-2km of track.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

What would the feasibility be of opening new railway stations serving these villages on the new line as below be? Maybe it could open up a new market and provide new connections for the people living there?

 

[Tobbes]

What would the feasibility be of opening new railway stations serving these villages on the new line as below be? Maybe it could open up a new market and provide new connections for the people living there?

View attachment 69724

Morcott had a population of 321 at the 2011 Census, so I don't think that they'll be getting a station any time soon. Luffenham is a possibility, especially with the barracks just up the road.

 

[Ayman Ilham]

Morcott had a population of 321 at the 2011 Census, so I don't think that they'll be getting a station any time soon. Luffenham is a possibility, especially with the barracks just up the road.

Oh, it's THAT small? Okay then but Luffenham is definitely a great idea, as it would serve all those villages around it and would be a perfect location at the junction between the two lines! In fact, the road I want the station to be on is called "Station Road" implying there actually used to be a station in that very location!

 

[Llandudno]

Great to see this impressive viaduct featured on Tim Dunn’s The Architecture The Railways Built on TV.

Are there any regular scheduled passenger trains traversing the viaduct, or is it only used for freight and engineering diversions.

Tim also mentioned that there was a local pressure group trying to get improved passenger services over the viaduct, is this a possibility, and if so, which new/enhanced service would take this route?

 

[pdeaves]

In 'normal' times there was just one passenger train each way. I don't know whether it still runs as I haven't looked it up. I once spent a night in Corby specifically to ride the service train; approximately 0930 on a weekday morning.

 

[jfowkes]

According to PSUL (which is a great resource for this sort of thing) these services ran in 2020:

Mondays to Fridays:
1M06 0926 Corby - Derby
1M44 1750 St Pancras International - Melton Mowbray
1P01 0558 Melton Mowbray - St Pancras International
1P99 1627 Derby - Kettering

They haven't put a 2021 listing up because Covid is playing havoc with timetables. At the moment those services do seem to be running as far as I can tell.

Anything on RTT that passes Corby signal Km3974 would almost certainly go over the viaduct: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/CORB974/2021-03-23/1747

 

[59CosG95]

Great to see this impressive viaduct featured on Tim Dunn’s The Architecture The Railways Built on TV.

Are there any regular scheduled passenger trains traversing the viaduct, or is it only used for freight and engineering diversions.

Tim also mentioned that there was a local pressure group trying to get improved passenger services over the viaduct, is this a possibility, and if so, which new/enhanced service would take this route?

I believe the group is 'Welland Valley Rail', who propose an hourly service from Kettering to March via Corby, Harringworth Viaduct, a new chord at Luffenham, Stamford, Peterborough and Whittlesea, also interfacing with the extension to Wisbech.

They made it to the third round of the gov't's "Restoring Your Railway" fund, so they may have more hope than most.

 

[jfowkes]

I believe the group is 'Welland Valley Rail', who propose an hourly service from Kettering to March via Corby, Harringworth Viaduct, a new chord at Luffenham, Stamford, Peterborough and Whittlesea, also interfacing with the extension to Wisbech.

Why March/Wisbech? I can sort of understand Kettering - Peterborough, what does extending to March do? Can't imagine there's great demand for that.

 

[Calthrop]

Things so worked out that I had to miss this programme in the series, tonight (Mar. 23rd), drat it ! -- had been looking forward to seeing it -- Harringworth Viaduct is near the area where I lived in youth: quite familiar with it, though I haven't been there for decades. No doubt it will be possible to view the TV item again, one way or another.

I believe the group is 'Welland Valley Rail', who propose an hourly service from Kettering to March via Corby, Harringworth Viaduct, a new chord at Luffenham, Stamford, Peterborough and Whittlesea, also interfacing with the extension to Wisbech.

Apologies if I'm being thick and / or pedantic; but the new "Luffenham" chord referred to: do I take it that said chord would actually run south-to-east just short of Manton, where the line northward from Kettering joins the Peterborough -- Leicester line? Luffenham is one station east of Manton (both stations now closed): used to be the point where the ex-LNWR section from Seaton joined the Peterborough -- Leicester route.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Things so worked out that I had to miss this programme in the series, tonight (Mar. 23rd), drat it ! -- had been looking forward to seeing it -- Harringworth Viaduct is near the area where I lived in youth: quite familiar with it, though I haven't been there for decades. No doubt it will be possible to view the TV item again, one way or another.

Likely to be viewable again via the "UK Play" online platform. Tonight's programme also being shown again at 12 midnight on Friday 26th March 2021 on the "Yesterday" TV channel.

 

[Bald Rick]

They made it to the third round of the gov't's "Restoring Your Railway" fund, so they may have more hope than most.

Strictly speaking they have simply made a submission to the third round of the “Restoring Your Railway” funding. In other words, they have entered the competition. I would say their chance of getting through is somewhere in the region of nil.

 

[Calthrop]

Likely to be viewable again via the "UK Play" online platform. Tonight's programme also being shown again at 12 midnight on Friday 26th March 2021 on the "Yesterday" TV channel.

Thanks ! 12 midnight, a bit daunting to me (I know it's 11.35 as I post !); but, "no pain, no gain"...

 

[Spamcan81]

EMR's 5M17 route learner does it in both directions. Currently it's an HST. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G41143/2021-03-23/detailed

 

[ashkeba]

EMR's 5M17 route learner does it in both directions. Currently it's an HST. https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G41143/2021-03-23/detailed

I think 5xxx codes are not passenger services.

 

[papageno]

Apologies if I'm being thick and / or pedantic; but the new "Luffenham" chord referred to: do I take it that said chord would actually run south-to-east just short of Manton, where the line northward from Kettering joins the Peterborough -- Leicester line? Luffenham is one station east of Manton (both stations now closed): used to be the point where the ex-LNWR section from Seaton joined the Peterborough -- Leicester route.

They want to do Seaton - Luffenham. See https://wvr.org.uk/how

 

[Aictos]

Why March/Wisbech? I can sort of understand Kettering - Peterborough, what does extending to March do? Can't imagine there's great demand for that.

Maybe platform capacity means it's just more convenient to terminate at March but using reinstated bay platform, bit like Corby is just a convenient place to terminate the EMR Electrics.

More to the point, what stock is proposed to be used on this service?

And lastly wouldn't extending the Birmingham to Leicester stoppers to Peterborough at least be a better use of resources so provides a 2tph between Birmingham and Peterborough as the existing 1tph pre Covid was very very busy .

 

[PHILIPE]

I think 5xxx codes are not passenger services.

Class 5s are ECS