Proposed timetable for Chester to Liverpool via Runcorn service

[pemma]

ATW have submitted a track application on behalf of the new Wales & Borders franchise.

It is proposed Liverpool bound (Mon to Sat) services will depart Chester at xx:17 and arrive at xx:06 calling at Helsby, Frodsham, Runcorn and Liverpool South Parkway with the first service at 06:17 and the last at 22:17. In the opposite direction services will depart Liverpool at xx:16 and arrive at xx:07 with the first at 07:16 and the last at 23:16. The service will be hourly but for some reason they'll be no 18:17 Chester to Liverpool or 19:16 Liverpool to Chester. They'll also be a Sunday service but it mentions that being part of a separate application

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...ptember 2018/atw 88th sa form p v8 final.pdf

Also unrelated the full track access agreement states rights for stopping Manchester to North Wales services at Patricroft (as an additional call not as a regular call), I'm not sure if that's new or not.

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...ighty eighth sg supplemental agreement v4.pdf

 

[Merseysider]

but for some reason they'll be no 18:17 Chester to Liverpool or 19:16 Liverpool to Chester.

That’s bizarre, perhaps there just isn’t a path?

 

[geoffk]

Also unrelated the full track access agreement states rights for stopping Manchester to North Wales services at Patricroft (as an additional call not as a regular call), I'm not sure if that's new or not.

I wonder why Patricroft and not Eccles - surely a better option.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the Northern Chester-Leeds was shown as xx23 from Chester (nicely balancing the xx50 ATW to Manchester).
So xx17 for the Liverpool seems tight, if it is to stop at Helsby and Frodsham ahead of the fast Leeds.
I can't remember the westbound Leeds-Chester times which were briefly on RTT.

On the southbound gap at 1916 from Lime St, I see the LM normal xx04 Birmingham is off-pattern at 1912.

 

[ys123]

Is the plan to eventually extend it to North Wales? If yes, any idea when?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Is the plan to eventually extend it to North Wales? If yes, any idea when?

Dec 2022 1 tph to Llandudno also 1 tph to Shrewsbury extended to Cardiff every 2 hours.

 

[ys123]

Dec 2022 1 tph to Llandudno also 1 tph to Shrewsbury extended to Cardiff every 2 hours.

Thanks. Is the reason they are only extending it in 2022 to do with getting the new trains?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thanks. Is the reason they are only extending it in 2022 to do with getting the new trains?

Yes - no ones quite sure how they can resource 1tph from Chester to Liverpool to start with.

 

[Philip]

There always used to be a gap in the evening for the Manchester Airport to Lancaster path (around 8-9pm), from introduction in the mid-90s up to when it went to its current frequency a couple of years ago, so it isn't too unusual.

Are 175s going for clearance runs to Liverpool in preparation for this service?

 

[6Gman]

Are 175s going for clearance runs to Liverpool in preparation for this service?

I do hope not. That would be a huge waste.

 

[M28361M]

Are 175s going for clearance runs to Liverpool in preparation for this service?

I believe the plan is for this service to be worked by class 150s. I note that the application linked by the original poster states: "It is hoped that the service will commence during the currency of the December 2018 Timetable. This is dependent on the availability of rolling stock." - I hope that isn't a bad sign.

Looking at the proposed journey times, it seems that the end-to-end journey time is slightly slower than Merseyrail via Birkenhead. However it is much faster travelling this route from Chester to South Parkway - the direct train is 33 minutes, whereas the best time NRE currently offer (changing in Liverpool) is 1h 09m.

 

[notlob.divad]

but for some reason they'll be no 18:17 Chester to Liverpool or 19:16 Liverpool to Chester.

That’s bizarre, perhaps there just isn’t a path?

On the southbound gap at 1916 from Lime St, I see the LM normal xx04 Birmingham is off-pattern at 1912.

As well as the off pattern Birmingham Service, I think the 19:16 Liverpool to Chester working would be very close to the additional evening peak London - Liverpool passing Halton Junction. The 1733 Euston departure passes Runcorn at 1933. With the current Liverpool - Birmingham taking 18 minutes to Runcorn, that would put a 1916 departure from Liverpool at Runcorn 1934, just 4 minutes behind the Birmingham if it matched the timings, and crossing a minute behind the Pendolino. So any delay on the WCML would knock on to the path through Halton Junction and thus cause issues with the 1843 Manchester departure for Chester.

It would be a case of threading the needle behind the Virgin at Halton in front of the ATW, at Frodsham, consistently everyday without fail.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Maybe we've forgotten there is an off-pattern 1816 Chester-Manchester (1710 ex Llandudno) in the way.
You'd hope all this could be sorted in the new timetable "under new management".

 

[pemma]

Maybe we've forgotten there is an off-pattern 1816 Chester-Manchester (1710 ex Llandudno) in the way.
You'd hope all this could be sorted in the new timetable "under new management".

Whatever the reason it's unusual to leave a long gap like that. W&B could look at running the Chester-Liverpool off-pattern to fit it around the other off pattern services or turning the unit around short e.g. at Liverpool South Parkway for one working.

 

[pemma]

I believe the plan is for this service to be worked by class 150s. I note that the application linked by the original poster states: "It is hoped that the service will commence during the currency of the December 2018 Timetable. This is dependent on the availability of rolling stock." - I hope that isn't a bad sign.

Looking at the proposed journey times, it seems that the end-to-end journey time is slightly slower than Merseyrail via Birkenhead. However it is much faster travelling this route from Chester to South Parkway - the direct train is 33 minutes, whereas the best time NRE currently offer (changing in Liverpool) is 1h 09m.

The business case was based on 4 car 150s being used but I bet they'll be 2 car initially. Passengers at Runcorn will probably look surprised if a 2 car unit turns up on a Liverpool service - they are used to 350s and 390s.

 

[Llandudno]

The first train from Chester to Liverpool seems to start an hour later than it should do if they are intending to tap into the Liverpool Airport market. Many flight check intimes are before 0645!

What fares are likely to be charged on this route, will the Chester to Liverpool fare be more expensive via Runcorn than Hooton. Will Merseytravel Saveaways be valid via Runcorn.

If the Chester to Liverpool fares are the same via either route, is it possible that the fare from Helsby/Frodsham to Liverpool will be more expensive than from Chester!

 

[pemma]

The first train from Chester to Liverpool seems to start an hour later than it should do if they are intending to tap into the Liverpool Airport market. Many flight check intimes are before 0645!

It's the same with many local trains and bus services serving Manchester Airport, they ignore the fact a lot of flights depart at or just after 6am. However, for a local train or bus it's better to attract people who work at the airport (who'll make 5 return journeys per week) over those who'll make one or two journeys per year and will also contribute towards filling up the luggage space.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect most people travelling a distance like Chester-Liverpool for an early flight would drive or get a taxi whatever the public transport provision. At that time of day the traffic congestion is non-existent (although night time road closures are a risk) and every minute later you can set the alarm is a bonus!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes - no ones quite sure how they can resource 1tph from Chester to Liverpool to start with.

Maybe KA (the new W&B operator) hope that they'll have an excuse to replace the Conwy Valley service with buses as ATW have needed to do a few times in recent winters?

Personally, although there's alot more I would like to see from the W&B rail network in the future, for 2018 all I want for Christmas (W&B franchise wise) is those 769s ATW and WAG promissed (in full working order and reliable). They might be able to free up a 150 or two for the Chester-Liverpool. Without the 769s or other additional rolling stock coming to the franchise, I hope they defer the introduction of the Halton curve service until Sept 2019 at the earliest (allowing for slippage in the 153s due to come from GWR in May 2019 and also allowing them to be used to strengthen Pembroke & Tenby services during summer 2019).

Maybe we've forgotten there is an off-pattern 1816 Chester-Manchester (1710 ex Llandudno) in the way.
You'd hope all this could be sorted in the new timetable "under new management".

Is the 18:23 the Northern Connect service that is missing due to going from Ellesmere Port instead of Chester? If so, could the off-pattern W&B service by moved from the 18:16 slot to take the 18:23 path that Northern won't be using in that hour?

 

[Camden]

Chester to Runcorn East is 19 minutes. Runcorn to Lime Street stopping at South Parkway is 20 minutes. 40 minutes Chester to Lime Street offers a decent time saving. Even better if they could get it under the 40.

49 minutes seems sluggish. For the duration that it terminates in Chester, they're going to need more enthusiasm for the service than I think this is going to get.

 

[pemma]

Chester to Runcorn East is 19 minutes. Runcorn to Lime Street stopping at South Parkway is 20 minutes. 40 minutes Chester to Lime Street offers a decent time saving. Even better if they could get it under the 40.

49 minutes seems sluggish. For the duration that it terminates in Chester, they're going to need more enthusiasm for the service than I think this is going to get.

The fact that it terminates at Chester is probably the main reason for what you call the slugish timing. If it was Liverpool to Llandundo maybe they'd have it departing Chester 49 minutes after Liverpool and scheduled to arrive in Chester a few minutes earlier?

 

[Camden]

Not sure I follow the logic sorry. I mean that 49 minutes seems an inordinate amount of time to travel from Liverpool to Chester, especially when this route really ought to be quite a bit faster than the metro service, rather than slower!

 

[pemma]

Not sure I follow the logic sorry. I mean that 49 minutes seems an inordinate amount of time to travel from Liverpool to Chester, especially when this route really ought to be quite a bit faster than the metro service, rather than slower!

I think they are bothered about trains arriving on time at their final destination. Once Chester isn't the starting point of Liverpool services or the termination point of services from Liverpool I imagine it could improve slightly.

 

[nedchester]

I think Helsby and Frodsham pick ups could be popular for this service especially now it is £2 Each way over the Mersey gateway bridge.

Therefore, the train might well be more attractive than driving.....

 

[frodshamfella]

Thanks. Is the reason they are only extending it in 2022 to do with getting the new trains?

I find it amazing this service isn't running to North Wales from the beginning, really not tapping into its potential.

 

[ys123]

I find it amazing this service isn't running to North Wales from the beginning, really not tapping into its potential.

I'm guessing there isn't enough trains

 

[krus_aragon]

Maybe KA (the new W&B operator) hope that they'll have an excuse to replace the Conwy Valley service with buses as ATW have needed to do a few times in recent winters?

Personally, although there's alot more I would like to see from the W&B rail network in the future, for 2018 all I want for Christmas (W&B franchise wise) is those 769s ATW and WAG promissed (in full working order and reliable). They might be able to free up a 150 or two for the Chester-Liverpool. Without the 769s or other additional rolling stock coming to the franchise, I hope they defer the introduction of the Halton curve service until Sept 2019 at the earliest (allowing for slippage in the 153s due to come from GWR in May 2019 and also allowing them to be used to strengthen Pembroke & Tenby services during summer 2019).

Deferring the new Chester-Liverpool service straight after the launch of the new franchise will be politically unacceptable, I'm sure. On the positive side, by December (this year) the fleet should be slightly less stretched than during the autumn leaf-fall-wheel-flat season. Then the 230s should be here in summer 2019 if they're on-time. But we still need those 769s sooner rather than later...

 

[frodshamfella]

I'm guessing there isn't enough trains

Which is another thing which is baffling to me and I'd say most of the travelling public !

 

[frodshamfella]

Whatever the reason it's unusual to leave a long gap like that. W&B could look at running the Chester-Liverpool off-pattern to fit it around the other off pattern services or turning the unit around short e.g. at Liverpool South Parkway for one working.

its quite bizarre to do that, you need some sort of consistency for a service for passengers. Its only one per hour anyway which isn't much. I have been waiting to use this service for a long time to reach the city centre and also airport, so it can't come quick enough for me.

 

[nedchester]

its quite bizarre to do that, you need some sort of consistency for a service for passengers. Its only one per hour anyway which isn't much. I have been waiting to use this service for a long time to reach the city centre and also airport, so it can't come quick enough for me.

The service is governed more than anything by the service between Liverpool South Parkway (and Halton Jn) and Lime Street which is a very busy bit of railway. Once you have those paths sorted then you have to ensure it all fits in with the service between Frodsham Jn and Chester. The single line on the Halton Curve could also cause issues.......