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Proposed withdrawal of Ellesmere Port - Manchester - Leeds trains

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Bow Fell

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Dunno but it's a horrific mismash of depots.

Lime Street don't sign Helsby to Chester. Man Vic doesn't sign Ellesmere port. Neither sign the Halton curve.

Lime Street definitely sign Helsby to Chester (link 1) they have booked work on the Leeds to Chester services from Man Vic to Chester.

The further problem is you have drivers that sign Ellesmere Port but not Chester, as that’s only a small link that can do both!

They did also sign the Halton Curve (I’m talking a very small number, as not everyone in Link 1 even signed it, as before TfW there used to be only 1 train for 4-5 months of the year!) and had booked road refresh jobs on TfW services until Covid put paid to that. As there was an ECS move Helsby-Lime St via Runcorn up until March.
 
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Greybeard33

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What is unclear is where the stock goes to after arriving at Helsby in the morning. And likewise how the stock gets to Helsby in the evening. Realtime trains seems to suggest ECS workings from Helsby to Chester. Can anybody confirm this?
Previously discussed in other threads:
From RTT I would deduce that the stock off the morning Ellesmere Port train (arr ECS in Chester P6 at 0702 as 5D33) will remain in Chester P6 for 3 hours. It will then work the 1002 to Piccadilly (2H38 from P6). The stock off the 0808 Piccadilly to Chester (2D43, arr in Chester P5 0936) will run ECS to Newton Heath as 5J43, dep Chester P5 0942.
From RTT it appears that the stock from the 1719 Stockport to Chester (arr Chester 1837) will form the 1900 Chester to Piccadilly. That will release the stock from the 1640 Piccadilly to Chester (arr Chester 1810) to run ECS to Helsby at 1832, then to work the 1854 Helsby to Ellesmere Port and the 1910 Ellesmere Port to Liverpool via Warrington Bank Quay.

So the restoration of the 1719 Stockport to Chester would seem to be mainly for operational convenience. It enables Northern to provide one of its two daily services to Ellesmere Port, while diverting the current 1542 Leeds to Ellesmere Port via Manchester Victoria service to terminate at Chester (arr 1815) instead. This change compensates for withdrawal of the current TfW 1715 Piccadilly to Chester (arr 1820) and so contributes to the avoidance of congestion in the Castlefield corridor.
 

Llandudno

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I don't think anything half decent will be offered along the line unless Merseyrail has it.
Correct, but I wouldn’t think Merseyrail would be interested. If they are going to extend further outside the ‘traditional’ Merseyside County then Skelmersdale, Burscough Bridge or Neston/Shotton would be more lucrative.
 

Bletchleyite

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Correct, but I wouldn’t think Merseyrail would be interested. If they are going to extend further outside the ‘traditional’ Merseyside County then Skelmersdale, Burscough Bridge or Neston/Shotton would be more lucrative.

Much as money can't be disregarded, it's not a case of Merseyrail Electrics (2002) Ltd wanting to make a quick buck, they just do as they're told by the PTE. And the PTE is not driven simply by which extension would be most profitable.
 

Llandudno

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Much as money can't be disregarded, it's not a case of Merseyrail Electrics (2002) Ltd wanting to make a quick buck, they just do as they're told by the PTE. And the PTE is not driven simply by which extension would be most profitable.
Not sure I agree there, I can’t imagine that the PTE would sanction an extension outside the Liverpool City Region to Helsby that wouldn’t generate sufficient revenue to cover the additional operating costs.

Skelmersdale and Neston extensions would serve a few extra city region stations, Kirkby Northwood, Rainford, Upton, Woodchurch and Heswall and I am pretty certain these third rail extensions would more than cover their additional operating costs.
 

frodshamfella

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Correct, but I wouldn’t think Merseyrail would be interested. If they are going to extend further outside the ‘traditional’ Merseyside County then Skelmersdale, Burscough Bridge or Neston/Shotton would be more lucrative.

As a side point, I heard something about Headbolt Lane moving a stage further, but Skelmersdale seems to be incredibly slow in its planning.

I suppose Merseyrail must have an idea of potential passengers from Hooton via Ellesmere Port and onwards who would use an extended service in its own right or to make connections at Helsby.
 

Bletchleyite

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As a side point, I heard something about Headbolt Lane moving a stage further, but Skelmersdale seems to be incredibly slow in its planning.

Probably doesn't help that Lancashire are involved in that one.

West Lancs really needs to be brought into the Liverpool City Region. There's precedent, after all, with Halton being brought in, and the situation is very similar to Halton - it's part of another County but doesn't really associate to it, it's primarily Liverpool commuterland.

Probably the same with the area around Ellesmere Port along to, er, Frodsham, I'd think.
 

frodshamfella

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Probably doesn't help that Lancashire are involved in that one.

West Lancs really needs to be brought into the Liverpool City Region. There's precedent, after all, with Halton being brought in, and the situation is very similar to Halton - it's part of another County but doesn't really associate to it, it's primarily Liverpool commuterland.

Probably the same with the area around Ellesmere Port along to, er, Frodsham, I'd think.

Yes agree, would make more sense.
 

childwallblues

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Empty? Didnt you know about the hordes of ..... 'Ellesmere Port passengers who will not only lose fast journey times to Warrington, Manchester and Yorkshire but also connections to the West Coast main line (both directions) at Warrington and to many parts of the country at Manchester'
P

Passengers could change at Runcorn for Euston and Birmingham
 

tavistock

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Probably doesn't help that Lancashire are involved in that one.

West Lancs really needs to be brought into the Liverpool City Region. There's precedent, after all, with Halton being brought in, and the situation is very similar to Halton - it's part of another County but doesn't really associate to it, it's primarily Liverpool commuterland.

Probably the same with the area around Ellesmere Port along to, er, Frodsham, I'd think.
you are right, Ellesmere Port does have a huge affinity with Liverpool,with many residents part of a huge overspill influx from Liverpool in the early 1960s. But when local government reorganisation plans in 1974 actually placed Ellesmere Port and Neston into the Wirral district of the new Merseyside County Borough as it was then, there was a huge outcry and the government relented and kept the Port and Neston in Cheshire. I suspect the same outcry would be repeated if there were similar suggestions made nowadays.
 

Bletchleyite

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you are right, Ellesmere Port does have a huge affinity with Liverpool,with many residents part of a huge overspill influx from Liverpool in the early 1960s. But when local government reorganisation plans in 1974 actually placed Ellesmere Port and Neston into the Wirral district of the new Merseyside County Borough as it was then, there was a huge outcry and the government relented and kept the Port and Neston in Cheshire. I suspect the same outcry would be repeated if there were similar suggestions made nowadays.

From my experience in West Lancs, that's primarily because of not wanting to pay Merseyside's higher Council Tax. Not sure what the solution to that is - if you want the services you have to pay for them.
 

tavistock

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From my experience in West Lancs, that's primarily because of not wanting to pay Merseyside's higher Council Tax. Not sure what the solution to that is - if you want the services you have to pay for them.
I think postcodes also play a big part nowadays, especially relating to house prices. Ellesmere Port used to have an L postcode.. now it's CH and they are delighted... not that that would necessarily change however.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think postcodes also play a big part nowadays, especially relating to house prices. Ellesmere Port used to have an L postcode.. now it's CH and they are delighted... not that that would necessarily change however.

Indeed not, and West Lancs already has L postcodes (and Southport, which is in Merseyside, has a PR postcode, because its mail traditionally came from Preston, not Liverpool).

Some people are postcode snobs, but as their purpose is mail routeing they are misguided.
 

tavistock

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Indeed not, and West Lancs already has L postcodes (and Southport, which is in Merseyside, has a PR postcode, because its mail traditionally came from Preston, not Liverpool).

Some people are postcode snobs, but as their purpose is mail routeing they are misguided.
You are right, but with programmes like homes under the hammer going on about postcodes all the time, they are being used by estate agents to bump up house prices. By the way is Skem in West Lancs, and if so how will this affect their joining up with Merseyrail?
 

peters

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Lime St do sign Helsby to Chester.

There used to be a joke about that. One of the Sprinters with tables and armrests used to do morning Mid-Cheshire services and then got left at Chester. A Liverpool crew arrived mid-afternoon on one of the claustrophobic Sprinters and then swapped it for the nice Sprinter, which they then took for the afternoon Helsby to Ellesmere Port services. As the Mid-Cheshire line is mainly worked by Manchester crews there was a joke about the Scousers robbing the nice trains.

Indeed not, and West Lancs already has L postcodes (and Southport, which is in Merseyside, has a PR postcode, because its mail traditionally came from Preston, not Liverpool).

Some people are postcode snobs, but as their purpose is mail routeing they are misguided.

It doesn't always mean much though. Crewe sorting office used to be a regional sorting office but they changed it to Warrington, if the postcodes reflected which sorting office is the regional hub then most of Cheshire would have had CW postcodes and then they would have changed to WA postcodes but there's been no such changes.

I'm not sure the house prices in Stockport are boosted because Alderley Edge and Wilmslow have Stockport postcodes.
 
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Bletchleyite

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You are right, but with programmes like homes under the hammer going on about postcodes all the time, they are being used by estate agents to bump up house prices. By the way is Skem in West Lancs, and if so how will this affect their joining up with Merseyrail?

Lancashire will need to cough up, same as for Burscough.
 

frodshamfella

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From my experience in West Lancs, that's primarily because of not wanting to pay Merseyside's higher Council Tax. Not sure what the solution to that is - if you want the services you have to pay for them.

Quite so !

Skelmersdale is indeed in West Lancashire.

Im not sure of the borders of West Lancs administration , but I understand it was invited but declined to join the LCR which Halton did join. I'm sure being part of it would help from an integrated transport point of view. I always think of John Prescot when I say the word " Integrated" !
 
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Bletchleyite

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Im not sure of the borders of West Lancs administration , but I understand it was invited but declined to join the LCR which Halton did join. I'm sure being part of it would help from an integrated transport point of view. I always think of John Prescot when I say the word " Integrated" !

Integrated with the parking provision for his two Jags? The very definition of champagne socialist. :D

West Lancs is basically the parts of Lancashire that lie on the "peninsula", if you'd call it that, that contains Liverpool and Southport.
 

peters

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West Lancs is basically the parts of Lancashire that lie on the "peninsula", if you'd call it that, that contains Liverpool and Southport.

HMRC used to have a West Lancashire tax office in Leigh, before it got merged with the office in Bottle.
 

Bletchleyite

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HMRC used to have a West Lancashire tax office in Leigh, before it got merged with the office in Bottle.

That it may well have done, but that has never been West Lancashire in a sense of the current administrative unit (Borough, I think).

This map should give you a reasonable idea (must admit I thought Croston was in WL but apparently it counts as Chorley):

lancashire-map.jpg


Anyway, we should probably go back to Ellesmere Port - I only introduced it as a comparable example! :)
 

frodshamfella

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Integrated with the parking provision for his two Jags? The very definition of champagne socialist. :D

West Lancs is basically the parts of Lancashire that lie on the "peninsula", if you'd call it that, that contains Liverpool and Southport.

:lol: ...yes need space for those Jags
 

30907

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That's a curious map. Villages marked as "major cities".
Pedantically, mostly towns as major cities - Longton may be a village but the rest are small towns (and their inhabitants will tell you!). Still curious I agree.
 

Djgr

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I think postcodes also play a big part nowadays, especially relating to house prices. Ellesmere Port used to have an L postcode.. now it's CH and they are delighted... not that that would necessarily change however.

All the postcodes on the Wirral changed from L to CH for Royal Mail operational reasons. I had a relative who worked on the reorg. Essentially it is not very efficient continually carting mail through the Mersey Tunnels.

Probably doesn't help that Lancashire are involved in that one.

West Lancs really needs to be brought into the Liverpool City Region. There's precedent, after all, with Halton being brought in, and the situation is very similar to Halton - it's part of another County but doesn't really associate to it, it's primarily Liverpool commuterland.

Probably the same with the area around Ellesmere Port along to, er, Frodsham, I'd think.

It was relatively easily organisationally to move Halton into Liverpool City Region. It is lot harder for Helsby, Ellesmere Port, Frodsham etc. as it would typically require the inclusion of the whole of West Cheshire, which stretches all of the way to Shropshire.
 
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