Proposed withdrawal of Ellesmere Port - Manchester - Leeds trains

[Gareth]

All the postcodes on the Wirral changed from L to CH for Royal Mail operational reasons. I had a relative who worked on the reorg. Essentially it is not very efficient continually carting mail through the Mersey Tunnels.

That may well have been the blurb they put out at the time but it's not the real reason, nor even necessarily true. There's nothing especially inefficient about carrying mail through the tunnel from large towns like Birkenhead and Wallasey to a sorting office in Liverpool which is at most a few kilometres away. It's certainly no less efficient than going a fair bit further down the peninsula to Chester. The real reason was their intention to shut down the Liverpool sorting office. Moving the Wirral stuff over to Chester was the first phase. The rest, on the other side of the river, was then eventually moved to Warrington.

And I worked years back in the Warrington centre. The amount of Wirral mail we got because the person sorting it at the other end saw Birkenhead or some other Wirral town and immediately thought "Liverpool" and so chucked it in the "L" pigeonhole; we got that much, we had a local "CH' pigeonhole for outbound distribution, even though it wasn't our area.

Additionally, we got tons of stuff meant for Western Australia or Washington in the US, because of the "WA" both those states are commonly abbreviated with.

None of which ever struck me as efficient, exactly.

EDIT: additionally, I just remembered all the North Wales mail we would get thanks to the "LL" postcode. It was especially the case if the person had written it in mixed case -"Ll".

 

[Djgr]

That may well have been the blurb they put out at the time but it's not the real reason, nor even necessarily true. There's nothing especially inefficient about carrying mail through the tunnel from large towns like Birkenhead and Wallasey to a sorting office in Liverpool which is at most a few kilometres away. It's certainly no less efficient than going a fair bit further down the peninsula to Chester. The real reason was their intention to shut down the Liverpool sorting office. Moving the Wirral stuff over to Chester was the first phase. The rest, on the other side of the river, was then eventually moved to Warrington.

And I worked years back in the Warrington centre. The amount of Wirral mail we got because the person sorting it at the other end saw Birkenhead or some other Wirral town and immediately thought "Liverpool" and so chucked it in the "L" pigeonhole; we got that much, we had a local "CH' pigeonhole for outbound distribution, even though it wasn't our area.

Additionally, we got tons of stuff meant for Western Australia or Washington in the US, because of the "WA" both those states are commonly abbreviated with.

None of which ever struck me as efficient, exactly.

EDIT: additionally, I just remembered all the North Wales mail we would get thank to the "LL" postcode. It was especially the case of the person had written it in mixed case -"LL".

Interesting. And as an by-product made the Wirral is Cheshire campaigners very happy.

An interesting pub quiz question is this. You can see two cathedrals from Birkenhead, but it is not in the diocese for either of them. Its Anglican cathedral is Chester but where is its Roman Catholic cathedral found?

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Interesting. And as an by-product made the Wirral is Cheshire campaigners very happy.

An interesting pub quiz question is this. You can see two cathedrals from Birkenhead, but it is not in the diocese for either of them. Its Anglican cathedral is Chester but where is its Roman Catholic cathedral found?

Church of our Lady on Cavendish Street? Don’t know the diocese though without looking.

 

[Djgr]

Church of our Lady on Cavendish Street? Don’t know the diocese though without looking.

Thanks for playing but that is not a cathedral! Many of its administrative offices are in Birkenhead but it is in the Diocese of Shrewsbury, where its cathedral is also to be found.

 

[Camden]

The real reason was their intention to shut down the Liverpool sorting office. Moving the Wirral stuff over to Chester was the first phase. The rest, on the other side of the river, was then eventually moved to Warrington.

And if you said that back then, you'd have been told you're crackers and imagining things.

Just goes to show how long term and determined these sorts of destructive programmes can be.

 

[Gareth]

I'm not sure. It was fairly well known that they wanted to do away with the Liverpool operation for quite a few years. Sure, it was a good decade or so between the Wirral stuff being transferred and the site finally closing but much of that was the political resistance put up both by trade unions and local politicians.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

you are right, Ellesmere Port does have a huge affinity with Liverpool,with many residents part of a huge overspill influx from Liverpool in the early 1960s. But when local government reorganisation plans in 1974 actually placed Ellesmere Port and Neston into the Wirral district of the new Merseyside County Borough as it was then, there was a huge outcry and the government relented and kept the Port and Neston in Cheshire. I suspect the same outcry would be repeated if there were similar suggestions made nowadays.

As a resident of Ellesmere Port, I can confirm that we are not an overflow town for Liverpool and the last thing we want is to be ruled by Steve Rotheram and his ilk. Indeed I remember a long and very successful campaign about 20 years ago to get our L65 & L66 postcodes changed to CH65 & CH66. Ellesmere Port's main affinity is with Chester.

The only advantage that Merseyside has is a more integrated transport system with cheaper bus & rail fares. However this only extends to the county boundary (as opposed to city region boundary). The one anomaly is Hooton station which is treated as Merseyside for fare purposes. This leads to many Ellesmere Port residents driving to Hooton station, with its big cheap car park instead of using the Ellesmere Port branch. Hooton is in Cheshire and came under Ellesmere Port & Neston Council before it was absorbed into Cheshire West & Chester.

 

[Djgr]

As a resident of Ellesmere Port, I can confirm that we are not an overflow town for Liverpool and the last thing we want is to be ruled by Steve Rotheram and his ilk. Indeed I remember a long and very successful campaign about 20 years ago to get our L65 & L66 postcodes changed to CH65 & CH66. Ellesmere Port's main affinity is with Chester.

The only advantage that Merseyside has is a more integrated transport system with cheaper bus & rail fares. However this only extends to the county boundary (as opposed to city region boundary). The one anomaly is Hooton station which is treated as Merseyside for fare purposes. This leads to many Ellesmere Port residents driving to Hooton station, with its big cheap car park instead of using the Ellesmere Port branch. Hooton is in Cheshire and came under Ellesmere Port & Neston Council before it was absorbed into Cheshire West & Chester.

Well without Liverpool City Region status I would suggest that the chances of improvements eastwards out of Ellesmere Port are nil.

I do personally think that a FAST commuter service direct to Manchester could be viable. In normal times the M56 is chock full of long distance commuters from the Wirral, Chester and beyond to Manchester. Witness the amount of cars parked at Helsby. Ellesmere Port Station with car parking is a stone's throw from an M53 exit.

 

[frodshamfella]

Well without Liverpool City Region status I would suggest that the chances of improvements eastwards out of Ellesmere Port are nil.

I do personally think that a FAST commuter service direct to Manchester could be viable. In normal times the M56 is chock full of long distance commuters from the Wirral, Chester and beyond to Manchester. Witness the amount of cars parked at Helsby. Ellesmere Port Station with car parking is a stone's throw from an M53 exit.

I have always thought Ince and Elton would take quite a few park and ride commuters if there was a half decent train service. There appears quite a bit of space for parking a car there.

My local station is Frodsham and being outside the Merseytavel area we do not receive a great rail service ( was only 1 per hour before the Halton Curve opened ) now 2 per hour. Fares are also high in comparison. I tend to think if we were in LCR, transportation would improve, as far as I'm aware they were behind funding of Halton Curve. Tend to agree you need a body like LCR to improve E Port to Helsby.

 

[tavistock]

As a resident of Ellesmere Port, I can confirm that we are not an overflow town for Liverpool and the last thing we want is to be ruled by Steve Rotheram and his ilk. Indeed I remember a long and very successful campaign about 20 years ago to get our L65 & L66 postcodes changed to CH65 & CH66. Ellesmere Port's main affinity is with Chester.

The only advantage that Merseyside has is a more integrated transport system with cheaper bus & rail fares. However this only extends to the county boundary (as opposed to city region boundary). The one anomaly is Hooton station which is treated as Merseyside for fare purposes. This leads to many Ellesmere Port residents driving to Hooton station, with its big cheap car park instead of using the Ellesmere Port branch. Hooton is in Cheshire and came under Ellesmere Port & Neston Council before it was absorbed into Cheshire West & Chester.

you never know, Ellesmere Port station might be used more once the derelict Station pub is demolished and the proposed flats are built there, but I agree, the vast car park at Hooton draws in commuters who would otherwise have used EP, Overpool,or Little Sutton were it not for the fares discrepancy. Pity this cannot be resolved somehow.

 

[Djgr]

you never know, Ellesmere Port station might be used more once the derelict Station pub is demolished and the proposed flats are built there, but I agree, the vast car park at Hooton draws in commuters who would otherwise have used EP, Overpool,or Little Sutton were it not for the fares discrepancy. Pity this cannot be resolved somehow.

It's not just the fares discrepancy though but also the much better "turn up and go" service from Hooton.

 

[tavistock]

It's not just the fares discrepancy though but also the much better "turn up and go" service from Hooton.

Of course. Many might be going to Chester... I never thought of that.

 

[frodshamfella]

you never know, Ellesmere Port station might be used more once the derelict Station pub is demolished and the proposed flats are built there, but I agree, the vast car park at Hooton draws in commuters who would otherwise have used EP, Overpool,or Little Sutton were it not for the fares discrepancy. Pity this cannot be resolved somehow.

Plus more frequent service from Hooton. I have a friend who lived near Harwarden who would drive to Hooton and take the train into Liverpool for his job.

 

[tavistock]

Plus more frequent service from Hooton. I have a friend who lived near Harwarden who would drive to Hooton and take the train into Liverpool for his job.

Pity Ledsham station can't be rebuilt, it would take a bit of pressure off Hooton if some car parking could be provided. There are big new estates nearby and I am sure there would be demand for both Chester and Liverpool services

 

[Gareth]

As a resident of Ellesmere Port, I can confirm that we are not an overflow town for Liverpool and the last thing we want is to be ruled by Steve Rotheram and his ilk. Indeed I remember a long and very successful campaign about 20 years ago to get our L65 & L66 postcodes changed to CH65 & CH66. Ellesmere Port's main affinity is with Chester.

Ffs, we've literally just talked about this and I explained at length why that change happened. There was no campaign. It was the transfer of the head sorting office for Wirral mail from Liverpool to Chester, as part of a larger plan to shut the former site down entirely. Some myths just won't die, it seems.

Btw, Ellesmere Port has very much to do with Liverpool and the wider metropolitan area, like the rest of the Wirral Peninsula does. Affinity with Chester, a much smaller city, is neither directly comparable nor mutually exclusive. It's not exactly like Chester & Liverpool have nothing to do with each other either.

 

[Djgr]

Ellesmere Port's passenger numbers don't look good. About half of Hooton's and lower than Bache!

 

[jamesst]

Ffs, we've literally just talked about this and I explained at length why that change happened. There was no campaign. It was the transfer of the head sorting office for Wirral mail from Liverpool to Chester, as part of a larger plan to shut the former site down entirely. Some myths just won't die, it seems.

Btw, Ellesmere Port has very much to do with Liverpool and the wider metropolitan area, like the rest of the Wirral Peninsula does. Affinity with Chester, a much smaller city, is neither directly comparable nor mutually exclusive. It's not exactly like Chester & Liverpool have nothing to do with each other either.

This exactly!
And in all honesty its more whether the rest of the area wants anything to do with Ellesmere Port than the other way round!!!

 

[tavistock]

Ellesmere Port's passenger numbers don't look good. About half of Hooton's and lower than Bache!

yes, not surprising at all. Hooton has direct links to Chester, Liverpool and Ellesmere Port. Bache has a huge hospital on its doorstep as well as a large supermarket.Ellesmere Port is currently at a dead end to all intents and purposes

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Interesting. And as an by-product made the Wirral is Cheshire campaigners very happy.

An interesting pub quiz question is this. You can see two cathedrals from Birkenhead, but it is not in the diocese for either of them. Its Anglican cathedral is Chester but where is its Roman Catholic cathedral found?

The Wirral, Cheshire and Shropshire are in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Shrewsbury. Which makes you wonder why Shrewsbury is a town and not a city.

 

[Camden]

The Wirral, Cheshire and Shropshire are in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Shrewsbury. Which makes you wonder why Shrewsbury is a town and not a city.

It also includes south Manchester. I think these things are just relics of ancient history rather than anything meaningful.

 

[Djgr]

It also includes south Manchester. I think these things are just relics of ancient history rather than anything meaningful.

Well it's meaningful in that it impacts the way people live their lives, the people they meet and how they construct their identity (in this particular example it leads to religious organisations on both sides of the River Mersey being divided). Ditto Oxton Lacrosse in Birkenhead play all their matches in South Manchester (Timperley, Stockport etc) and Cheshire (Wilmslow, Mellor etc.) but don't play teams in Liverpool.

 

[markymark2000]

yes, not surprising at all. Hooton has direct links to Chester, Liverpool and Ellesmere Port. Bache has a huge hospital on its doorstep as well as a large supermarket.Ellesmere Port is currently at a dead end to all intents and purposes

How many people do you honestly think are using Bache station so they can do their weekly shop at Morrisons?
The walk to the hospital is too long as well for most people to use it for that purpose. People going to the hospital drive or use the bus. There may be some workers using the train but i'd certainly say not huge amounts.

Bache in my experience (it's one of my closest stations) is used by people who want to park or be dropped off but don't want to travel into or through Chester City Centre. It was (at the time of the last stats) the station that was known for being an easy interchange to Chester Zoo. That changes around 14 months ago when Stagecoach changed the services.

 

[Llandudno]

I have used Bache a time or two as well as a Park & Ride for Chester, avoids traffic congestion and expensive parking in Chester and unlike Chester’s Park & Ride buses from the outskirts of the city runs until 2330 at night.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also a residential area, as per many Merseyrail stations. Probably more of a traffic source than sink.

 

[Djgr]

My point was less to do with the success of Bache station and more to do with disappointing passengers numbers throughout the Ellesmere Port branch (Little Sutton, Overpool, E.Port)

Perhaps the truth is that the E.Port branch got lucky politically when the electrification fairy came a-knocking?

 

[peters]

It also includes south Manchester. I think these things are just relics of ancient history rather than anything meaningful.

It's boundary is the pre-1974 border of Cheshire with places like Birkenhead, Stalybridge and Sale being in Cheshire prior to Merseyside and Greater Manchester being invented.

The place where it actually seems a bit crazy is Warrington with Warrington itself in Liverpool diocese but the suburbs south of the Mersey, like Latchford and Appleton in Shrewsbury diocese!

Although, the current Bishop of Shrewsbury is a Manc, while the Bishop of Salford is a Yorkshire man!

 

[Djgr]

It's boundary is the pre-1974 border of Cheshire with places like Birkenhead, Stalybridge and Sale being in Cheshire prior to Merseyside and Greater Manchester being invented.

The place where it actually seems a bit crazy is Warrington with Warrington itself in Liverpool diocese but the suburbs south of the Mersey, like Latchford and Appleton in Shrewsbury diocese!

Although, the current Bishop of Shrewsbury is a Manc, while the Bishop of Salford is a Yorkshire man!

From a Wirral perspective we are used to lots of Cheshire stuff being around, so for example if Royal Mail can't deliver me my letter in the outskirts of Birkenhead I have to go to their office on the North Cheshire Trading Estate nearby (heaps of irony there) but Shropshire is a step beyond. Hence why it is a good Pub Quiz question.

As an aside there is a pub in the centre of Chester whose pub sign says "Floreat Salopia". I wonder how common it is for pubs, say in Yorkshire, to praise their next door counties?

 

[peters]

on the North Cheshire Trading Estate nearby (heaps of irony there)

I'm sure there was a bus operator based there who had buses running around Liverpool with a 'North Cheshire Trading Estate' address on them, was it Avon?

 

[Djgr]

I'm sure there was a bus operator based there who had buses running around Liverpool with a 'North Cheshire Trading Estate' address on them, was it Avon?

Indeed. And another mystery is why it is North Cheshire Trading Estate. Pretty much all historic references to the Wirral and Cheshire have used the terminology West Cheshire.