Prosecution Letter - False Accusations

[ANorthernGuard]

What I meant is, did you get anything from the conductor to show he'd taken your ticket?

It should have been taken away to be investigated, surely? Not just taken and binned because he decided it was probably out of date and you were trying to defraud!

It wouldn't have been taken away and binned, it would have been given to a CTM with a report from the Conductors point of view and then passed on to prosecutions who would then decide the next step.

 

[bb21]

Have Northern looked at the CCTV? Can the CCTV pick up voices?, if the answer is no to both them why have northern issued the OP with a prosecution letter?
Have they just gone off the word of the conductor without looking first?.

We do not know what was in the report submitted to the prosecution department.

Please refrain from speculation as this does not help the OP in any shape or form.

 

[scrapy]

Have Northern looked at the CCTV? Can the CCTV pick up voices?, if the answer is no to both them why have northern issued the OP with a prosecution letter?
Have they just gone off the word of the conductor without looking first?.

As already said Northern haven't issued any form of summons, they have asked the OP for their account of things. No the CCTV cannot pick up voices. As I have said the CCTV would probably be irrelevant in this case but there is probably no point in looking at it until they have the OP's version of events.

The conductor will have signed a statement to say that what they have said is true. The statement may be used in court as evidence (and would be subject to cross examination) so I very much doubt any conductor would risk their job and a possible criminal record by putting anything false in it over a fare dispute of a couple of pounds at the most. As A Northern Guard has said the railcard would not have been binned as it is evidence.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As already said Northern haven't issued any form of summons, they have asked the OP for their account of things. No the CCTV cannot pick up voices. As I have said the CCTV would probably be irrelevant in this case but there is probably no point in looking at it until they have the OP's version of events.

The conductor will have signed a statement to say that what they have said is true. The statement may be used in court as evidence (and would be subject to cross examination) so I very much doubt any conductor would risk their job and a possible criminal record by putting anything false in it over a fare dispute of a couple of pounds at the most. As A Northern Guard has said the railcard would not have been binned as it is evidence.

Thankyou for your common sense approach

 

[ole man]

According to the OP Northern have accused him of Anti social behaviour, so why not ask him for his version of events before accusing him?.

 

[bb21]

why not ask him for his version of events before accusing him?.

... which is exactly what they are doing.

They are asking for his version of events.

@OP. Can you please confirm whether this is just a letter titled "Notification of Intention to Prosecute" or something along those lines?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

According to the OP Northern have accused him of Anti social behaviour, so why not ask him for his version of events before accusing him?.

as I said a few posts ago, IF there was an argument that can be seen as anti-social behaviour I also did point out that if the Guard argued back he would be unprofessional in doing so.

 

[455driver]

Ole man, This, from the opening post-

We argued outside the train as I continued to demand for the card back as this was still valid, I explained that I would report him for theft and he stated that in fact the card was National Rail's property,

should answer your question.

A week after I sent an email to Northern Rail explaining the situation and my disgust at the way I was treated on the train,

You left it a week to complain?

They have asked for my response to the matter, threatening to take me to court if I do not respond.

They will take you to court if you dont respond, depending on what your response is, they may or may not take it further, they are asking for your version of events, remember to be truthful as the CCTV will have been downloaded.

 

[Bakerbloke]

They don't fade overnight, so it would be fair to say people have plenty of time to get it replaced at their convenience.

Ideally it would be nice to have railcards that last the duration.

At many stations waiting in a ticket office queue is a big inconvenience. If the cards are known not to last then the person should have been sold the Y-P ticket and the conductor taken a note of their railcard number. I think Northern are being unfair on this occasion. Please post the outcome.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

At many stations waiting in a ticket office queue is a big inconvenience. If the cards are known not to last then the person should have been sold the Y-P ticket and the conductor taken a note of their railcard number. I think Northern are being unfair on this occasion. Please post the outcome.

This person has been told before, listen guys n gals we are not talking about someone who has innocently not noticed that his railcard has faded he was told over a month ago by yours truly and after speaking to a few colleagues a few have also confirmed this, the OP has been told numerous times we have used "discretion time and time again"..time ran out.

 

[34D]

How can NO date being read on a Railcard be counted as Petty??

That would be because a railcard was sold by Northern (or another ATOC member) as being fit for purpose - it isn't. In any other industry consumer law would prevail and Northern would be at fault.

Only in the railways can the consumer be prosecuted because the rail ticket faded.

ANG, I'd love to see you complain in a restaurant about getting food poisoning, and then the restaurant suing _you_ because you ordered the prawns.

(I don't really want you to get food poisoning, I'm just trying to get a point across)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That would be because a railcard was sold by Northern (or another ATOC member) as being fit for purpose - it isn't. In any other industry consumer law would prevail and Northern would be at fault.

Only in the railways can the consumer be prosecuted because the rail ticket faded.

ANG, I'd love to see you complain in a restaurant about getting food poisoning, and then the restaurant suing _you_ because you ordered the prawns.

(I don't really want you to get food poisoning, I'm just trying to get a point across)

it has been a well known problem, yes it is National Rails fault that the Railcards have faded, its the same as the Seasons etc. but you get say a Debit Card and the strip where you sign the back off has worn off (which happens alot) if Chip and pin isn't available we can't "trust" the person can we? or would it be ok if that person has no other I.D. to take a payment with any old signature? please do tell

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That would be because a railcard was sold by Northern (or another ATOC member) as being fit for purpose - it isn't. In any other industry consumer law would prevail and Northern would be at fault....

"The Railcard" has not been sold at all, it remains the property of "The Railway", as noted in the conditions.

"The Railway" will replace, upon request at a manned ticket office, a faded Railcard at no charge to "The Holder", provided it is not damaged, altered, lost or stolen.

"The Holder" of "The Railcard" pays for the entitlement to a discount as noted in the appropriate literature for "The Railcard".

 

[34D]

it has been a well known problem, yes it is National Rails fault that the Railcards have faded, its the same as the Seasons etc. but you get say a Debit Card and the strip where you sign the back off has worn off (which happens alot) if Chip and pin isn't available we can't "trust" the person can we? or would it be ok if that person has no other I.D. to take a payment with any old signature? please do tell

As long as the card can be swiped (whether chip n pin, mag stripe, or zip zap) then you are fine to accept without a signature (subject to the policies of your company and their merchant).

 

[455driver]

As long as the card can be swiped (whether chip n pin, mag stripe, or zip zap) then you are fine to accept without a signature (subject to the policies of your company and their merchant).

ANorthernGuard has stated that the card cannot be electronically read so stop changing things to suit.

The OP has, on a number of occasions been asked/ told to get the card replaced. The OP couldnt be bothered, didnt have the time so got chinged for it, tough in my books, you cant moan about the rules if you wont play by them!

Maybe, as some people seem unable to look after their cards properly, all seasons/ railcards should have a maximum of 6 months validity that would solve the problem.

I can hear the moaning already!

 

[221129]

subject to the policies of your company and their merchant.

Which is what happened.

 

[jwos]

So that bit on the back of all bank cards which says "Not valid unless signed" must just be there for purely decorative purposes..?:roll:

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That would be because a railcard was sold by Northern (or another ATOC member) as being fit for purpose - it isn't. In any other industry consumer law would prevail and Northern would be at fault.

Only in the railways can the consumer be prosecuted because the rail ticket faded.

ANG, I'd love to see you complain in a restaurant about getting food poisoning, and then the restaurant suing _you_ because you ordered the prawns.

(I don't really want you to get food poisoning, I'm just trying to get a point across)

Restaurant analogies are absolutely no help in a completely different industry and situation. I'd have thought you knew better than that.

 

[GadgetMan]

At many stations waiting in a ticket office queue is a big inconvenience. If the cards are known not to last then the person should have been sold the Y-P ticket and the conductor taken a note of their railcard number. I think Northern are being unfair on this occasion. Please post the outcome.

How do you take a note of the railcard number when ALL the print on the railcard has faded?

 

[IanXC]

As long as the card can be swiped (whether chip n pin, mag stripe, or zip zap) then you are fine to accept without a signature (subject to the policies of your company and their merchant).

It doesn't really work like that any more. If the card has a chip it must be used (either with PIN or Signature depending on how the card is set up). If a chip is present but not used, and an account holder challenges this, the merchant has no case whatsoever and willl have the amount charged back.

If a card does not have a chip, or a chip and signature card has a worn signature strip, the merchant has no way of knowing whether the genuine card holder has the card. Should any signature taken differ from the card holder's then, again the merchant will receive a chargeback.

So all in all it would probably not be wise to accept card payments in the circumstances you describe.

 

[jon0844]

it has been a well known problem, yes it is National Rails fault that the Railcards have faded, its the same as the Seasons etc. but you get say a Debit Card and the strip where you sign the back off has worn off (which happens alot) if Chip and pin isn't available we can't "trust" the person can we? or would it be ok if that person has no other I.D. to take a payment with any old signature? please do tell

If the signature strip wore off, you'd simply find yourself unable to pay for something and be asked to provide an alternative method of payment. You wouldn't be prosecuted, nor would your bank (or Visa/Mastercard) etc take action because you didn't keep a valid signature on the card.

The worst that could happen is losing the card, with someone else writing a new signature and using your card. Hence, being advised to replace the card if the signature strip is damaged or fades.

 

[NotDeadYet]

Ticket offices will happily and very quickly replace faded railcards.

Not my experience.

About 18 months ago I noticed that the expiry date on my railcard had become unreadable. The railcard had not been mistreated in anyway but had been kept safely in a card wallet. In fact I treated it with the same care that I always treat railcards and I have examples going back to the 1980s that remain perfectly legible.

I visited the ticket office at my local station and requested that the railcard be replaced. The clerk held the card up to the light and reckoned he could make out the date and that there was no problem. I was not happy with this and argued that if I could not read it then potentially other rail staff might not be able to read it either. He told me it could be replaced for a £5 fee. I argued that I had not mistreated the card in any way and did not expect to pay for its failure. However, it soon became clear that he was not going to help so I returned home.

I phoned Customer Services and received a rather more positive response. She was apologetic & told me it was a known problem and the railcard should have been replaced free of charge. She agreed to instruct the station to carry out the replacement and phone me back when she had done so - I did not want to risk another trip to the station only to have my request refused again.

My second visit was more successful. A different clerk replaced the railcard and agreed with me that the date was partially unreadable - she asked what I thought the expiry date should be (in fact we could just about make out the month and year but not the day).

For me it is a 2 mile walk to the station - so a 4 mile walk for the round trip - plus time on the phone etc. Not a great experience.

It is disappointing to learn that after 18 months this known problem has still not been resolved.

NorthernGuard mentions he has advised a number of passenger to have their faded railcards replaced but then encounters them again with the same faded card. But perhaps, like me, they have asked for a replacement and been told where to go and perhaps, unlike me, they were not prepared to argue their corner for fear of being arrested for anti-social behaviour.

After a couple of months my replacement railcard started to show early signs of fading. For what it is worth my own limited research suggests the printing on some ticket types is degraded by heat. I always used to keep my card wallet in my breast pocket where it was constantly warm. Now I keep my railcard separately and only take it with me on planned rail journeys and no longer see any signs of fading. One consequence for me is that as I now no longer routinely carry my railcard, I no longer make short impromptu rail journeys at the weekend so it has saved me money - but I am astonished that the industry is happy to settle for a printing technology that seemingly has such limitations.

 

[Stephen55a1960]

I recently had to replace my Disabled Person's Railcard (due to fading). The central issuing office (in Scotland) did this free of charge. The expiry date was September 2013.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not my experience.

About 18 months ago I noticed that the expiry date on my railcard had become unreadable. The railcard had not been mistreated in anyway but had been kept safely in a card wallet. In fact I treated it with the same care that I always treat railcards and I have examples going back to the 1980s that remain perfectly legible.

I visited the ticket office at my local station and requested that the railcard be replaced. The clerk held the card up to the light and reckoned he could make out the date and that there was no problem. I was not happy with this and argued that if I could not read it then potentially other rail staff might not be able to read it either. He told me it could be replaced for a £5 fee. I argued that I had not mistreated the card in any way and did not expect to pay for its failure. However, it soon became clear that he was not going to help so I returned home.

I phoned Customer Services and received a rather more positive response. She was apologetic & told me it was a known problem and the railcard should have been replaced free of charge. She agreed to instruct the station to carry out the replacement and phone me back when she had done so - I did not want to risk another trip to the station only to have my request refused again.

My second visit was more successful. A different clerk replaced the railcard and agreed with me that the date was partially unreadable - she asked what I thought the expiry date should be (in fact we could just about make out the month and year but not the day).

For me it is a 2 mile walk to the station - so a 4 mile walk for the round trip - plus time on the phone etc. Not a great experience.

It is disappointing to learn that after 18 months this known problem has still not been resolved.

NorthernGuard mentions he has advised a number of passenger to have their faded railcards replaced but then encounters them again with the same faded card. But perhaps, like me, they have asked for a replacement and been told where to go and perhaps, unlike me, they were not prepared to argue their corner for fear of being arrested for anti-social behaviour.

After a couple of months my replacement railcard started to show early signs of fading. For what it is worth my own limited research suggests the printing on some ticket types is degraded by heat. I always used to keep my card wallet in my breast pocket where it was constantly warm. Now I keep my railcard separately and only take it with me on planned rail journeys and no longer see any signs of fading. One consequence for me is that as I now no longer routinely carry my railcard, I no longer make short impromptu rail journeys at the weekend so it has saved me money - but I am astonished that the industry is happy to settle for a printing technology that seemingly has such limitations.

I can understand the frustration when Ticket offices are awkward over something that is obviously a Print error and not the customers, However that does not mean we can accept railcards which have no date showing, it would be open to abuse (which I have already found out) people have tried already. So my point of view does not change, I advise then a few weeks later if I get the same railcard and without a relevent reason then it can be withdrawn quite rightly (IMHO) of course

 

[leithg1987]

ANorthernGuard has stated that the card cannot be electronically read so stop changing things to suit.

The OP has, on a number of occasions been asked/ told to get the card replaced. The OP couldnt be bothered, didnt have the time so got chinged for it, tough in my books, you cant moan about the rules if you wont play by them!

Maybe, as some people seem unable to look after their cards properly, all seasons/ railcards should have a maximum of 6 months validity that would solve the problem.

I can hear the moaning already!

What an outrageous statement, and amplifies what is worrying about the attitude our rail conductors have.

I have been notified once about my railcard, and the conductor that day happily resolved the situation by applying a lighter to the bottom of the card.

I rarely travel via the train as I'm now a keen cyclist travelling to work. That day I decided to get a lift to work from my girlfriend as I was running late to work and in the evening I grabbed the train home. I hadn't checked my railcard for over 3 weeks, therefore I had no idea the year had rubbed off. An honest mistake and one that would have been rectified had the conductor provided a receipt and notified I would need a replacement and could claim back my discount at a later time.

We're talking about the difference between £1.10. The full price of a railticket from Adlington - Cheadle Hulme is £3.30. I never intended to only pay £2.20, I was merely asking for my discount out of principle for having a valid railcard.

The fact I offered to pay the full fare before leaving the train shows that I was intending to pay for the ticket and had made an effort to.

I was left waiting for 2 stops as the conductor went off with my railcard (I was under the impression he was off to claim a lighter), not notifying me of his intentions, nor offering me the chance to pay the full fare, leaving him totally in the wrong for not offering the passenger an option to pay the full fare.

He left it until the final stop and never actually returned to the passenger, I had to run to the bottom of the train to find him, an act of unprofessional-ism from the conductor.

As I've stated before my arguments were calm and never was I acting anti-social, I was thoughtful in my demands for my railcard to be handed back, I knew that if it were handed back I could claim for a replacement card for free.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Leith you have been told on a few occasions about your railcard I have told you and on speaking to a few colleagues they have also had a word, you have been given the benefit of the doubt on a few occasions and this time the guard was not willing to, all you had to do was get it replaced when you originally got told, is it inconvenient? I am sure it is, however if we cannot see the date we cannot accept the card, you have had numerous chances and you chose not to take them which I am sure the guard who deal't with you on this occasion will put in his report. Rules work BOTH ways

 

[455driver]

I have been notified once about my railcard,

How many times do you need to be told to get it changed?

I hadn't checked my railcard for over 3 weeks, therefore I had no idea the year had rubbed off.

So you had been told about it at least 3 weeks previously but did nothing about it!

An honest mistake

An honest mistake?
You had already been told about the state of the card at least 3 weeks previously..

and one that would have been rectified had the conductor provided a receipt and notified I would need a replacement and could claim back my discount at a later time.

The railcard had been withdrawn at that stage, your chance to get it changed was when you were first warned about it.

 

[snail]

I was resisting the urge to throw in another unqualified opinion into the mix, but I have to say that each further post by the OP is gaining him/her less sympathy with me. Do you really think that it's appropriate to carry a railcard that can only be validated by heating it with a lighter?

Like many of the 'I've been done' threads, there is probably more to this than has been explained to us here.

 

[All Line Rover]

We're talking about the difference between £1.10. The full price of a railticket from Adlington - Cheadle Hulme is £3.30. I never intended to only pay £2.20, I was merely asking for my discount out of principle for having a valid railcard.

Term 8 of the 16-25 Railcard T&C's, which you agreed to when you purchased the Railcard, states the following: "The Railcard will not be valid if it is damaged."

So sorry, but as most people would consider a Railcard without a visible date to be "damaged," your Railcard was not valid and you were not entitled to a discount. As others have already pointed out, the guard was also within his rights to withdraw the Railcard, as according to Term 10 of those same T&C's: "The Railcard does not become your property and if requested must be handed in to a representative of any Train Company."

You needed to request a replacement Railcard if you wished to continue using it, as the latter part of Term 8 explains. There is a £5 administration fee for doing this, but if Northern Rail were already aware that there was a problem with the quality of their Railcard ticket stock, I'm sure they would have waived this nominal fee.

I appreciate that fact that this post is not particularly helpful with regard to resolving your predicament, but I hope it shows that you mustn't take an "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude if you decide to write to Northern Rail, as it won't help in the slightest. Northern Rail might not have demonstrated good customer service skills (and there's nothing stopping you complaining about that), but technically they are still in the right.

 

[exile]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the particular case, the fact that railcards and season tickets are being printed with, apparently, invisible ink is undeniable - it happened to me last year and I had to jump through hoops to get the ticket replaced. And yet, my current season ticket has lasted 6 months with no noticeable fading.... the ticket holder has a reponsibility to look after their ticket - but the TOC seems to have no responsibility to produce a ticket that's robust enough to last a year in normal use.