Prosecution Letter - False Accusations

[All Line Rover]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the particular case, the fact that railcards and season tickets are being printed with, apparently, invisible ink is undeniable - it happened to me last year and I had to jump through hoops to get the ticket replaced. And yet, my current season ticket has lasted 6 months with no noticeable fading.... the ticket holder has a reponsibility to look after their ticket - but the TOC seems to have no responsibility to produce a ticket that's robust enough to last a year in normal use.

I fully agree, which is why there is nothing stopping the OP mentioning this in a letter if he decides to write to Northern, in an attempt to reach an amicable resolution. I doubt we know the full facts of this case, but taking them as they are, it would be harsh for Northern to continue if it was themselves, in part, who got the OP into this situation (by using substandard Railcard ticket stock). (I'm not to sure about this now).

 

[bb21]

I have been notified once about my railcard, and the conductor that day happily resolved the situation by applying a lighter to the bottom of the card.

Are you talking about the same railcard as the one withdrawn?

If so, using a lighter on the railcard the second time is not going to work. If the railcard has already been heated to show up the negative image, there is no chemicals remaining in the relevant area on the face of that ticket.

I have to say that if your railcard has faded again after it has already been heated up with a lighter, I can fully understand why the guard withdrew the ticket as even holding it up against the light would not work, at any angle.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I fully agree, which is why there is nothing stopping the OP mentioning this in a letter if he decides to write to Northern, in an attempt to reach an amicable resolution. I doubt we know the full facts of this case, but taking them as they are, it would be harsh for Northern to continue if it was themselves, in part, who got the OP into this situation (by using substandard Railcard ticket stock).

Why are everyone blaming Northern for the Ticket Stock? The problem is all TOC's not Just Northern!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Don't take this post the wrong way, I just don't understand a couple of points.

....I was approached by the ticket conductor and showed my railcard asking for a ticket to Cheadle Hulme station under 16-25 young person’s discount.....

.... I never intended to only pay £2.20, I was merely asking for my discount out of principle for having a valid railcard.....

You never intended to pay 'only' £2.20, but admit to asking for that fare. If you really believed your Railcard was valid, why would you not intend to pay 'only' £2.20?

....The conductor stated he could not read the date on the railcard (the year on the card had been smudged after wear of taking the card out of my wallet numerous times) and proceeded not to offer me the discount....

.... I hadn't checked my railcard for over 3 weeks, therefore I had no idea the year had rubbed off....

If your Railcard hadn't been used for 3 weeks and you hadn't noticed it had faded until that point, how do you know it had faded through wear and tear?

....As I've stated before my arguments were calm and never was I acting anti-social, I was thoughtful in my demands for my railcard to be handed back, I knew that if it were handed back I could claim for a replacement card for free.

Can I enquire how you where 'thoughtful in [your] demands' in the heat of the moment? I mean, it's not like you were expecting to have trouble, is it?

 

[All Line Rover]

Why are everyone blaming Northern for the Ticket Stock? The problem is all TOC's not Just Northern!

Really? The ones I've had issued by Virgin and ATOC (online) have all been durable enough to last at least a year. I've got a paper one from three years ago and it's still in mint condition!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Really? The ones I've had issued by Virgin and ATOC (online) have all been durable enough to last at least a year. I've got a paper one from three years ago and it's still in mint condition!

Its's a batch sent to all TOC's I have had cards that people have collected from Picc for example and thats a Virgin Booking Office.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have seen plenty of Northern issued Railcards that have survived for the year of validity. I have also seen Railcards issued by other TOCs that have faded long before the expiry date.

 

[All Line Rover]

Do all TOCs give out a wallet with every Railcard? As that's bound to affect the durability of it. (Virgin do. ATOC don't, but then they're plastic so it isn't much of an issue).

 

[IanXC]

Do all TOCs give out a wallet with every Railcard? As that's bound to affect the durability of it. (Virgin do. ATOC don't, but then they're plastic so it isn't much of an issue).

My last was purchased from Northern and it came with a National Rail ticket wallet, which suggests to me that the overwhelming majority of TOCs will issue them in such a wallet.

 

[All Line Rover]

My last was purchased from Northern and it came with a National Rail ticket wallet, which suggests to me that the overwhelming majority of TOCs will issue them in such a wallet.

I am starting to doubt the legitimacy of claims that certain Railcards are "bound to fade." For this reason I withdraw my comment in post #61.

 

[leithg1987]

so all that's been explained is the invalidity of my railcard, something that I am aware of.

However I can't understand why I was not properly notified of my options to gain a free replacement pass and to pay for the full fare.

The rail conductor took my railcard with no explanation until my arrival at Cheadle Hulme. I would have paid the full fare, however I was given no option to.

 

[Stigy]

as I said a few posts ago, IF there was an argument that can be seen as anti-social behaviour I also did point out that if the Guard argued back he would be unprofessional in doing so.

Indeed it could, although Northern would need a bit more than an "argument" to bring a part of Byelaw 6 to the Mags Court. The Guard would have needed to have noted exact dialogue and/or body language. Not just say "Mr X raised his voice" or "Mr X argued with me when I informed him I'd be seizing the Railcard".

CCTV would probably not be seized, as it's often a tiresome task in doing so, and for such a trivial case, would probably not be worth it unless the OP's argument/complaint is sufficient enough to warrant a download.

So we've reached a understanding that is was the OP's fault for having a invalid railcard, but what i cant understand is the attitude of the conductor, is his word that the OP was being anti-social final and that he is guilty.

It's for the Magistrates to decide ultimately, although it's up for the TOC to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that an offence under Byelaw 6 did occur. All any staff member on the frontline has to do is report exactly what happened, it's up to Northern in this case to decide whether there's enough evidence to proceed with a prosecution.

At the end of the day, to be able to proceed to Court, an MG11 (Witness Statement) needs to be submitted to the TOC in the first instance. It's quite clear on Page One of the statement that the information you submit is true to the best of your knowledge. If you lie on one of these formed you're committing perjury and can potentially go to prison.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

so all that's been explained is the invalidity of my railcard, something that I am aware of.

However I can't understand why I was not properly notified of my options to gain a free replacement pass and to pay for the full fare.

The rail conductor took my railcard with no explanation until my arrival at Cheadle Hulme. I would have paid the full fare, however I was given no option to.

Come on Leith you are a reasonably intelligent fella, I can't quote on what my colleague said/did when your railcard was takien away but I remember clearly saying to you that you need to go to a booking office for a replacement and I gave you the benefit of the doubt, maybe if you had taken myselfs and my colleagues advice this would never have happened!

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Come on Leith you are a reasonably intelligent fella, I can't quote on what my colleague said/did when your railcard was takien away but I remember clearly saying to you that you need to go to a booking office for a replacement and I gave you the benefit of the doubt, maybe if you had taken myselfs and my colleagues advice this would never have happened!

I might have misunderstood, but you have had personal dealings with Leith?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I might have misunderstood, but you have had personal dealings with Leith?

I am 95% positive I have spoken to him (Adlington Cheshire has on average 1 person per stop) and as its one of my routes I tend to have a good memory with things like Railcards etc (no idea why) so yes I am very sure I have.

 

[snail]

so all that's been explained is the invalidity of my railcard, something that I am aware of.

However I can't understand why I was not properly notified of my options to gain a free replacement pass and to pay for the full fare.

Am I right in thinking that they are not options once you have boarded a train and tried to use an invalid railcard?

 

[jon0844]

I am 95% positive I have spoken to him (Adlington Cheshire has on average 1 person per stop) and as its one of my routes I tend to have a good memory with things like Railcards etc (no idea why) so yes I am very sure I have.

I think you need to be 100% as I've been reading the thread recently and have now been assuming the OP had been warned countless times, which made me change my overall opinion.

Before this, I thought the conductor had possibly been a little unfair - and maybe judged that the railcard wasn't valid when a second opinion might have been different (certainly reducing the chance of there being a prosecution as against a 'we've noted this, will let you off this time but do not do it again and consider this a warning' and it being the end of it.

If it's possible you're talking about someone else, it does possibly tarnish the reputation of the OP unfairly! If not, well - there we go. Case closed!

 

[Flamingo]

Reading the original post, I can say from personal experience that an antisocial behaviour charge will not be proceeded with (or even looked into) unless there is more evidence than one persons word against another's.

There surely must be something else in the mix, either witness statements, or CCTV, that is making the TOC investigate this aspect of it further.

 

[Stigy]

Reading the original post, I can say from personal experience that an antisocial behaviour charge will not be proceeded with (or even looked into) unless there is more evidence than one persons word against another's.

There surely must be something else in the mix, either witness statements, or CCTV, that is making the TOC investigate this aspect of it further.

A prosecution under Byelaw 6 needs no more than one person's word against anothers, which is to all intents and purposes what an MG11 is! The TOC would however need a little more evidence than simply saying somebody was acting anti-socially (direct speech in a notebook for example).

 

[Flamingo]

...The TOC would however need a little more evidence than simply saying somebody was acting anti-socially (direct speech in a notebook for example).

Which is exactly what I'm saying, it needs a bit more than the guard saying "He was nasty to me", with nothing to back it up, for it to get past the first fence.

And in circumstances like this, a counter-allegation is often made by the passenger in the hope of muddying the water enough that the TOC/BTP will take no further action.

I've never yet seen or heard of a letter of complaint that said "The guard was very polite to me, but still insisted that I had to buy a new ticket". "Rude, aggressive, bullying and unprofessional" are the four standard accusations against the staff member, regardless of what occurred, or how many witnesses are available to refute the complaint.

 

[Stigy]

Which is exactly what I'm saying, it needs a bit more than the guard saying "He was nasty to me", with nothing to back it up, for it to get past the first fence.

Oh right, apologies. I thought you were saying there needs to be third party witnesses or something, which of course, there doesn't...

 

[Flamingo]

Oh right, apologies. I thought you were saying there needs to be third party witnesses or something, which of course, there doesn't...

Unfortunately, in my experience, without them, BTP or CPS will throw it out. It won't make it to court.

 

[Stigy]

Unfortunately, in my experience, without them, BTP or CPS will throw it out. It won't make it to court.

The CPS (Or Criminal Protection Service as some know them better as) will often dispose of matters by way of a caution, if at all. Police Officers may also issue a PND to keep the matter from court. It's very different if the TOC prosecutes the case though, as they appear to be attempting to in this case. Although they still have to act in the public interest, as stipulated by the CPS, they can and will go to Court with only a staff member's MG11 to go on. There's no reason why the CPS couldn't do this, but they tend to see railway revenue matters and minor public order offences etc, as trivial....or so it would appear.

 

[BrownE]

A prosecution under Byelaw 6 needs no more than one person's word against anothers, which is to all intents and purposes what an MG11 is! The TOC would however need a little more evidence than simply saying somebody was acting anti-socially (direct speech in a notebook for example).

Could the complaint email he sent not have incriminated himself? Obviously I don't know what that letter said, but is it possible?

 

[Stigy]

Could the complaint email he sent not have incriminated himself? Obviously I don't know what that letter said, but is it possible?

Wouldn't have thought so, unless he said how bad and ant-social he was, which i'm assuming he didn't given the nature of the letter...The only incrimination could have been regarding his journey and the ticketing.

Sorry if I've missed something here, but do we even know for certain what Northern's intentions are? It's strange to be dealt with in this way by anyone other than an RPI or similar to be honest. A Guard might submit a TIR, but what happens with that? Any TOC staff can submit an MG11, but usually only revenue do because they're trained in them.

 

[motherwell334]

Being a Ticket Examiner up here in scotland im seeing a lot of railcards with similar problems, apararently its bad ticketing stock, but all i do is ask the person(s) to take the railcard out the wallet and i do a ticket swipe on my advantix and that reveals the expiry date of the card.

I have however caught a few expired cards as they have bought them from the TVM which doesnt ask for any information from the card, and they person(s) have ended up paying for a full new ticket..

 

[leithg1987]

I am 95% positive I have spoken to him (Adlington Cheshire has on average 1 person per stop) and as its one of my routes I tend to have a good memory with things like Railcards etc (no idea why) so yes I am very sure I have.

Could you tell me when roughly you think you have spoken to me?

Because I can tell you 100% sure I've been spoken to once before and the rail conductor performed the lighter trick and said I'd be fine to go on with that condition.

Being a Ticket Examiner up here in scotland im seeing a lot of railcards with similar problems, apararently its bad ticketing stock, but all i do is ask the person(s) to take the railcard out the wallet and i do a ticket swipe on my advantix and that reveals the expiry date of the card.

I have however caught a few expired cards as they have bought them from the TVM which doesnt ask for any information from the card, and they person(s) have ended up paying for a full new ticket..

Interesting this, and thanks for this post. Brings up a whole new case for the rail conductor's options when deeming my card to be unreadable.

Am I right in thinking that they are not options once you have boarded a train and tried to use an invalid railcard?

Well of course they are options, I took out my railcard thinking the date was showing!

Why would I try and show a railcard and cause an argument if I knew the date was unreadable.

I've stated before that this was the first time I had pulled out my railcard in 3 weeks and therefore I hadn't noticed the railcard was unreadable. (please note it was only the number '2' of the year '12' that had rubbed off completely at this time).

Never had I attempted to board the train to use an invalid railcard, it would foolish for me to try and attempt to just for a £1.10 saving.

 

[Flamingo]

If I do the lighter trick, I always then write the expiry date on the back of the railcard and "stamp" it with my ziffa over the date I have written, so there is something to go on next time the card is inspected. I will also advise the person to get a new one.

Although in about a third to a half of cases I do the lighter trick, I just rip the railcard up, and sell a new ticket, as the card has expired (by anything up to 10 months)

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Could you tell me when roughly you think you have spoken to me?

Because I can tell you 100% sure I've been spoken to once before and the rail conductor performed the lighter trick and said I'd be fine to go on with that condition.

must be a couple of months but to be fair I couldn't remember the exact date etc. as I do a hell of alot of routes and speak to a hell of alot of people.

Interesting this, and thanks for this post. Brings up a whole new case for the rail conductor's options when deeming my card to be unreadable.

The swipe on Avantix is not very reliable and not many actually work. Of course it is always a 1st course of action if the date cannot be read but usually if the "lighter trick" has been applied not only is the Strip unreadable but as has already been said usually only works the once.

Well of course they are options, I took out my railcard thinking the date was showing!

Why would I try and show a railcard and cause an argument if I knew the date was unreadable.

You previously stated that "Because I can tell you 100% sure I've been spoken to once before " so why didn't you get it sorted after you were told (and I still stand by what I have said that you have been spoken to by more than just the one guard).

I've stated before that this was the first time I had pulled out my railcard in 3 weeks and therefore I hadn't noticed the railcard was unreadable. (please note it was only the number '2' of the year '12' that had rubbed off completely at this time).

Never had I attempted to board the train to use an invalid railcard, it would foolish for me to try and attempt to just for a £1.10 saving.

So you are arguing that the "2" was unreadable from the railcard, let me ask you this, what do you think is the way most frauds regarding tickets/railcards take place (seasons etc on tickets) simple. the date and usually the last number.

You have already admitted that you had been warned about your Railcard being ineligible by one guard (I still contend this) and you then complain that it was confiscated? surely the sensible course of action would be that you either

a, got it replaced and explaining to the member of staff at the ticket office about the date

or if for some reason you didn't have time

b, explain to the guard before boarding or at the very least after boarding attempt to find him/her as sson as possible and explain the condition of the railcard and let them decide.

To say it looks very dubious is the understatement of the year

 

[jon0844]

If the OP can prove the railcard wasn't out of date, it would mean no intent to defraud at least.