Prospects of HSTs surviving on "Highland Chieftain" (London/Inverness VTEC)

[yorkie]

Isn't the Chieftain always covered by a Scottish crew north of Edinburgh? Fair enough they work for VTEC rather than Scotrail, but I've never been served by anyone other than a person with a Scottish accent. Often the same people on the trolley to the extent that I thought they're based in Inverness and just do a there and back to Waverley each day?

Pretty sure it's just the Edinburgh-based crews that work it, with an overnight out at Inverness.

The catering staff are based in Inverness.

The last couple of times I've done the Chieftain, we've recognised at least one of them cycling home, on our way to the Premier Inn.

 

[BRX]

I'm a bit behind the curve on this as it was a month ago, but I see that an 800 has been trialed to Inverness now.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...a-stock-gets-inaugural-scottish-highlands-run

19.12.17

Hitachi has run trials of Virgin Trains’ new Azuma stock in the Scottish Highlands for the first time.

The test comes as the operator prepares to introduce 65 of the new trains on Virgin Trains East Coast from December of next year.

Initial testing saw the stock journey north of Edinburgh to Inverness for the first time last Friday, before travelling back to a depot in Doncaster in the early hours of Saturday morning.

Following the successful test, rail minister Paul Maynard commented: “We want to put passengers at the heart of everything we do and the £5.7bn government-led investment in a new state-of-the-art fleet intercity trains is important step in achieving that.

“This test run is a key milestone....

I've not found any information on likely date of introduction on the Chieftain route though.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I'm fairly sure that VTEC needs the HSTs. They tried using an 800 on a test run, but it failed at Pitlochry. Afterwards, a 47 had to haul it through to Craigentinny.

 

[Kieran1990]

Fairly sure it made it to Inverness and back to Doncaster under its own power. There are videos on YouTube I’m sure of that.
Has there been a second test?

 

[Highlandspring]

No there hasn't; that post about the 800 failing is a load of pish though, it ran as booked throughout.

 

[43096]

No there hasn't; that post about the 800 failing is a load of pish though, it ran as booked throughout.

But couldn't meet current sectional running times.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Fairly sure it made it to Inverness and back to Doncaster under its own power. There are videos on YouTube I’m sure of that.
Has there been a second test?

But couldn't meet current sectional running times.

There was a test in June. This may or may not be well publicised, but I was in Pitlochry at the time and saw it with my own eyes. Didn't have a camera on me so there are no photos.

 

[ainsworth74]

As already mentioned it made it under it's own power there and back but was around seven minutes late into Inverness. Hardly a disastrous first run!

Our thread on the topic at the time (here) had some photos of it at Inverness.

 

[Peter Kelford]

I mean a different run.

 

[ainsworth74]

I mean a different run.

In which case I think we may need some sort of article or other proof that this happened as the test in December was widely publicised as the first test run into the Highlands. I'm also fairly certain that if an IET did fail on it's way to Inverness in June someone, somewhere, will have mentioned it (and considering the deep wellspring of hate on this Forum it would have been mentioned here!).

 

[BRX]

As already mentioned it made it under it's own power there and back but was around seven minutes late into Inverness. Hardly a disastrous first run!

Our thread on the topic at the time (here) had some photos of it at Inverness.

Thanks for the link.
Interesting looking at the RTT path:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K13238/2017/12/15/advanced

By my reckoning, once you account for early departure and extended dwell times, on the Perth to Inverness section it lost about 25 minutes compared to the normal HST timings.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was a test in June. This may or may not be well publicised, but I was in Pitlochry at the time and saw it with my own eyes. Didn't have a camera on me so there are no photos.

There weren't even any out and about in June, I'm pretty certain.

 

[Chrism20]

The first one north of the border was to Dunbar towards the end of August IIRC

 

[Darandio]

There weren't even any out and about in June, I'm pretty certain.

June 2017? There were several up and down the ECML, often between Darlington and York or Doncaster.

I'm pretty certain one wasn't at Inverness in June though.

 

[ainsworth74]

The first one north of the border was to Dunbar towards the end of August IIRC

Yes, see article from Rail:

Testing takes IEP train to Scotland for the first time

18/08/2017

Intercity Express Programme trains reached Scotland for the first time on August 16, when the first IEP ran to Dunbar for testing.

Nine-car 800101, the first Virgin Trains East Coast Azuma, ran from Doncaster to Dunbar and back as part of the continued testing of the trains ahead of their planned introduction next year. It was met by a piper as it arrived at Dunbar.

VTEC Managing Director David Horne said: “Having the train visit Scotland for the first time as part of testing is a really important moment, and reminds us of the excitement it will bring to UK train travel when it is introduced into service.”

Sixty-five IEP Class 800/801s are on order from Hitachi Rail Europe. VTEC aims to use the trains to reduce journey times between London and Edinburgh by up to 22 minutes. The operator says the trains will also help boost capacity from King’s Cross by 28% at peak-time. The interiors have been designed by Virgin.

VTEC has 13 nine-car Class 800/1 (800101-800113) and ten five-car Class 800/2 (800201-800210) bi-mode IEPs on order, as well as 12 five-car (801101-801112) and 30 nine-car Class 801 (801201-801230) electric multiple unit IEPs.

Link

So unless @Peter Kelford is able to provide some proof I'm afraid that we can probably discount the idea of a IET failing at Pitlochry in June 2017.

 

[ainsworth74]

By my reckoning, once you account for early departure and extended dwell times, on the Perth to Inverness section it lost about 25 minutes compared to the normal HST timings.

Yes it's not great is it?

I'm starting to wonder if they'll need to up rate the engines on the 13 9-car bi-modes that are intended to replace the HSTs.

 

[jimm]

But unless someone knows what the overall purpose of that test run was - and the planned schedule clearly wasn't an attempt to replicate a Highland Chieftain run or get to Inverness as fast as possible either - then it's hard to know if it proves anything either way as to future timetabling. In addition, 25kv power should be available to Dunblane by the time East Coast pensions off its HSTs.

 

[Chrism20]

But unless someone knows what the overall purpose of that test run was - and the planned schedule clearly wasn't an attempt to replicate a Highland Chieftain run or get to Inverness as fast as possible either - then it's hard to know if it proves anything either way as to future timetabling. In addition, 25kv power should be available to Dunblane by the time East Coast pensions off its HSTs.

I would assume 1H13 (1336 Edinburgh to Inverness) would probably be just ahead of the test train after Perth (1451) and calling everywhere except Newtonmore and Carrbridge so I’m guessing with single line sections and southbound traffic as well to contend with the timings on the test possibly may not give the full picture on the performance of the set.

 

[ainsworth74]

But unless someone knows what the overall purpose of that test run was - and the planned schedule clearly wasn't an attempt to replicate a Highland Chieftain run or get to Inverness as fast as possible either - then it's hard to know if it proves anything either way as to future timetabling. In addition, 25kv power should be available to Dunblane by the time East Coast pensions off its HSTs.

Yes that's a very good point! We probably won't know for sure until they either do a test run with a path timed close to that of the Highland Chieftain or until a IET appears on the Chieftain itself. Hence why I'm just wondering rather than screaming about how terrible it all is

 

[robbeech]

As much as I love the HST I fail to see how anything designed so recently could possibly fail to keep up with its timings. One assumes as others have that this was never designed to be a run to match the timings.
If this is the first run the vehicle has done up there would you expect them to do it flat out?

 

[eastwestdivide]

As it was its very first run over that stretch of line, it's entirely possible (but pure speculation on my part) that they took it really slowly through platforms and other potential obstacles. It may well be within the loading gauge in theory, but knowing Network Rail's infrastructure record-keeping, to blast through at full speed could be an expensive way of checking that data's 100% correct.

 

[BRX]

As much as I love the HST I fail to see how anything designed so recently could possibly fail to keep up with its timings. One assumes as others have that this was never designed to be a run to match the timings.
If this is the first run the vehicle has done up there would you expect them to do it flat out?

I agree that we can't assume the run was intended to prove that it can keep up with HST timings.

However - yes it's designed recently but the design priorities seem to have been for performance on electric power. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder if it will be able to keep up with HST timings on the gradients of the non-electrified HML. This seems backed up by the fact that GWR have ordered a variation on the 800 - the 802 - with higher rated diesel engines for use on their non-electrified routes which involve the more challenging gradients.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has anybody confirmed the formation of the London-Inverness class 800 service?
Could it be 2x5-car with a unit dropped at Edinburgh or further north?
With the franchise's financial problems I can't see any desire to retain HSTs in any form for ICEC.
We don't even know how the missing NR infrastructure will affect the plans, which looks like cutting back on anticipated capacity on the ECML.
All to be renegotiated in the East Coast Partnership and the NR CP6 deliverables.

 

[najaB]

This seems backed up by the fact that GWR have ordered a variation on the 800 - the 802 - with higher rated diesel engines for use on their non-electrified routes which involve the more challenging gradients.

As I understand it the 800 and 802 have basically the same engines, but the 802s were specified with larger fuel tanks to allow them to run at full power for a larger percentage of the time.

 

[D6975]

As I understand it the 800 and 802 have basically the same engines, but the 802s were specified with larger fuel tanks to allow them to run at full power for a larger percentage of the time.

That's right. It's the software that's controlling the engines that is differently set up. 800s are set to run the engines at a lower maximum level, only running them at their full potential to compensate for when a set drops an engine. Running the engines at a lower level gives a more relaxed maintenance regime.

 

[ainsworth74]

Has anybody confirmed the formation of the London-Inverness class 800 service?
Could it be 2x5-car with a unit dropped at Edinburgh or further north?

I don't believe so but both Inverness and Aberdeen are often very well loaded so I can see justification for having the 9-car units rather than cramming everyone into 5-car north of Edinburgh. I could see a justification for the Stirling service to be 5-car north of Edinburgh as I believe that does load quite poorly.

With the franchise's financial problems I can't see any desire to retain HSTs in any form for ICEC.

The latest rumour that I've heard from a VTEC source is that they're not planning on retaining anything. But, again, that's a rumour.

 

[jimm]

However - yes it's designed recently but the design priorities seem to have been for performance on electric power. So it doesn't seem unreasonable to wonder if it will be able to keep up with HST timings on the gradients of the non-electrified HML. This seems backed up by the fact that GWR have ordered a variation on the 800 - the 802 - with higher rated diesel engines for use on their non-electrified routes which involve the more challenging gradients.

On the admittedly shorter and more modest (tiny bit of 1 in 70, a few miles of 1 in 80) gradients in the Malvern Hills, GWR 800s with the current full engine power and acceleration settings (not the same as GWR have specified for the 802s) seem to have no trouble keeping up with HST timings on trips to Hereford and back, though you are aware on board that the engines are having to put in more work than when running on diesel power on level track or more modest gradients.

 

[Clansman]

I don't believe so but both Inverness and Aberdeen are often very well loaded so I can see justification for having the 9-car units rather than cramming everyone into 5-car north of Edinburgh. I could see a justification for the Stirling service to be 5-car north of Edinburgh as I believe that does load quite poorly.

Can't disagree with any of this.

 

[mullac30]

I don't believe so but both Inverness and Aberdeen are often very well loaded so I can see justification for having the 9-car units rather than cramming everyone into 5-car north of Edinburgh. I could see a justification for the Stirling service to be 5-car north of Edinburgh as I believe that does load quite poorly.

Would it be reasonable for VTEC to increase frequency to Inverness by splitting a 5-car 800 at Edinburgh?

 

[Macwomble]

Would it be reasonable for VTEC to increase frequency to Inverness by splitting a 5-car 800 at Edinburgh?

Are there enough spare paths on the HML especially when the Scotrail HSTs come into play.