Prospects of HSTs surviving on "Highland Chieftain" (London/Inverness VTEC)

[najaB]

Surely we need to get a grip here. Even a 5 coach satsuma is only 4 1/2 coaches because of the galley/ kitchen area? And don’t TOC’s ever learn? New, exciting trains normally entice people to have a go. Hence the Pendo’s on the West Coast being extended or having coach G converted on the 9 coach units.

I thought the plan was for it to be a 9 coach, or will it be 5+5 as far as Edinburgh with only 5 going through?

 

[gsnedders]

I thought the plan was for it to be a 9 coach, or will it be 5+5 as far as Edinburgh with only 5 going through?

I've heard different things over the years; some proposals seem to be 5+5 splitting for Aberdeen/Inverness (potentially increasing frequency to Inverness), but others are keeping the current timetable with 9 cars going to Inverness.

 

[najaB]

I've heard different things over the years; some proposals seem to be 5+5 splitting for Aberdeen/Inverness...

Would that work though? Edinburgh to Inverness is about an hour longer than to Aberdeen - there would be a mis-match coming back down, unless the Aberdeen set sat around for an extra couple of hours.

 

[Stopper]

Would that work though? Edinburgh to Inverness is about an hour longer than to Aberdeen - there would be a mis-match coming back down, unless the Aberdeen set sat around for an extra couple of hours.

I think he means both the Aberdeen and Inverness services will run as 10 coaches from London to Edinburgh, and then split to 5 there.

 

[najaB]

I think he means both the Aberdeen and Inverness services will run as 10 coaches from London to Edinburgh, and then split to 5 there.

I got that. But from Edinburgh it's a six hour round trip to Inverness and a four hour round trip to Aberdeen. So the Aberdeen portion will get back to Edinburgh and won't have anything to join up with to head back south.

 

[Aictos]

I got that. But from Edinburgh it's a six hour round trip to Inverness and a four hour round trip to Aberdeen. So the Aberdeen portion will get back to Edinburgh and won't have anything to join up with to head back south.

Unless of course it joins with a another 5 car coming off depot to form a 10 car for the run into London so it's quite possible that they will have something to join up with, equally it might well be possible to run a 10 car to Edinburgh then split with one portion going to Perth and the other to Aberdeen with the layover at Perth being such that they both arrive on the return leg within a few minutes of each other at the Waverley.

No idea what the final plan is but I guess these are very much quite possible which isn't with using the HSTs.

 

[47271]

We're a bit off topic here discussing the IETs north of Edinburgh, but one piece of gossip I've heard locally on the Highland Main Line is that the Chieftain may be making additional calls once the HSTs are away, presumably because each stop will be a lot slicker without a long line of mk3 slammers to deal with. Dunkeld has certainly been mentioned in this context, which makes sense since its annual entries and exits aren't that far behind those of Kingussie. I haven't heard anything on Aberdeen services.

Ironic of course that (some) all stations services are being provided by slam door HSTs at the moment, but there you go.

 

[InOban]

I would like to know the actual destinations of the passengers on the LNER trains from North of Edinburgh. Since both Inverness and Aberdeen have direct flights, I assume air dominates the end to end traffic. Traditionally there's been a lot of oil workers heading home after their two weeks on the rigs, mainly to NE England.

 

[route101]

I would like to know the actual destinations of the passengers on the LNER trains from North of Edinburgh. Since both Inverness and Aberdeen have direct flights, I assume air dominates the end to end traffic. Traditionally there's been a lot of oil workers heading home after their two weeks on the rigs, mainly to NE England.

A lot use it just to Edinburgh when ive seen it at Waverley!

 

[route101]

We're a bit off topic here discussing the IETs north of Edinburgh, but one piece of gossip I've heard locally on the Highland Main Line is that the Chieftain may be making additional calls once the HSTs are away, presumably because each stop will be a lot slicker without a long line of mk3 slammers to deal with. Dunkeld has certainly been mentioned in this context, which makes sense since its annual entries and exits aren't that far behind those of Kingussie. I haven't heard anything on Aberdeen services.

Ironic of course that (some) all stations services are being provided by slam door HSTs at the moment, but there you go.

Wonder if Dunblane will get a call every day?

 

[route101]

I got that. But from Edinburgh it's a six hour round trip to Inverness and a four hour round trip to Aberdeen. So the Aberdeen portion will get back to Edinburgh and won't have anything to join up with to head back south.

6 hour and 4 hour trip , you sure ?

 

[najaB]

6 hour and 4 hour trip , you sure ?

I was rounding.

The Chieftain takes three hours and change to get to Inverness and the Aberdeen trains take about two and a bit hours - so probably more like a seven hour vs five hour round trip but the principle is the same.

 

[adamedwards]

Given the Chieftain works as an end of day marginal time operation I doubt the Aberdeen v Inverness journey time will make much difference. Both 5 cars spend the night at their respective destinations and come back south the next morning.

 

[najaB]

Given the Chieftain works as an end of day marginal time operation I doubt the Aberdeen v Inverness journey time will make much difference. Both 5 cars spend the night at their respective destinations and come back south the next morning.

That doesn't quite work - the overnight Aberdeen train is the 1pm from London, the Chieftain is the 10am. So there will be a stock imbalance.

 

[route101]

That doesn't quite work - the overnight Aberdeen train is the 1pm from London, the Chieftain is the 10am. So there will be a stock imbalance.

Thought the cheiftain was 12pm From Kings x and 0755 return next day from Inverness?

 

[najaB]

Thought the cheiftain was 12pm From Kings x and 0755 return next day from Inverness?

Sorry, yes it is. And it's the 1600 that overnights in Aberdeen.

 

[43096]

Sorry, yes it is. And it's the 1600 that overnights in Aberdeen.

Would you like to have another go? There are two sets in Aberdeen each night.

1400 and 1600 off London; come south as 0752 and 0952 off Aberdeen

https://www.125group.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/HST-Diags-LNER.pdf

 

[najaB]

Would you like to have another go? There are two sets in Aberdeen each night.

Yes, there are. But that doesn't affect the point that it's not a simple matter of running the Inverness and Aberdeen overnighting (is that a word?) trains as a joint service from London because they run at different times. It would significantly alter the timetable.

 

[Class 170101]

I've heard different things over the years; some proposals seem to be 5+5 splitting for Aberdeen/Inverness (potentially increasing frequency to Inverness), but others are keeping the current timetable with 9 cars going to Inverness.

You will struggle to get paths on the HML.
However

Would that work though? Edinburgh to Inverness is about an hour longer than to Aberdeen - there would be a mis-match coming back down, unless the Aberdeen set sat around for an extra couple of hours.

I think he means both the Aberdeen and Inverness services will run as 10 coaches from London to Edinburgh, and then split to 5 there.

Could also work as more day starters and night time finishers at Inverness and Aberdeen which wouldn't then have problems with the journey length as they would have a long layover at either Inverness or Aberdeen overnight.

 

[InOban]

A lot use it just to Edinburgh when ive seen it at Waverley!

I know. But that's not the justification for the existence of these trains.

 

[Failed Unit]

I know a lot may change but the Inverness / Aberdeen services look like they will get slowed down South of Edinburgh calling at Doncaster and Peterborough.

Shows that LNER are not trying to compete with air. Although lots do the journey end to end. There are significant flows from Northern England to Scotland.

 

[SC43090]

Might be of topic but as people have mentioned Aberdeen.... If you think you've got a good service now or hope for something better when they finally introduce the satsumas when ever that might be......

In the BR timetable of 13th May 1985 to 11th May 1986 BR operated the following Monday to Saturday day time services between Aberdeen KX Aberdeen... All services was HST operated

Northbound

0800 KX Aberdeen

1030 KX Aberdeen

1300 KX Aberdeen

1600 KX Aberdeen

Southbound

0600 Aberdeen KX

0800 Aberdeen KX

1000 Aberdeen KX

1400 Aberdeen KX

1600 Aberdeen KX

Note 0800 KX Aberdeen RTN on 1600 Aberdeen KX

Sundays.... All HST operated

Northbound

0930 KX Aberdeen

1300 KX Aberdeen

1600 KX Aberdeen


Southbound

0850 Aberdeen Glasgow QS

0935 Aberdeen KX

1135 Aberdeen KX until 23rd June

1235 Aberden KX.... Until 23rd June & from 15th September started at Inverness at 1005

1900 Aberdeen Edinburgh


SC 43090

 

[cjp]

I have read through this thread and can only comment for myself that if the Chieftain with its comfort and and First class services to Inverness were to disappear then so would I as a railway passenger from London to Inverness.
The plane takes more effort but saves me time and that would, overall, be less aggravation than swapping trains at Edinburgh as some of you suggest.
So long as I have my comfortable seat, view and refreshment I so not care what I am being conveyed in. Get it wrong and I am gone.

 

[najaB]

The plane takes more effort but saves me time and that would, overall, be less aggravation than swapping trains at Edinburgh as some of you suggest.

If they go with the 5+5 option, you would only have to swap trains at Edinburgh if you sat in the wrong portion.

 

[Stopper]

I got that. But from Edinburgh it's a six hour round trip to Inverness and a four hour round trip to Aberdeen. So the Aberdeen portion will get back to Edinburgh and won't have anything to join up with to head back south.

I may be misunderstanding how you are reading it, but I don’t believe it’s a 10 coach IET from London that will split into 5+5 (one Aberdeen, one Inverness portion). What I’ve been told is that each service (whether it be Aberdeen or Inverness) will run 10 coaches London to Edinburgh, and then split 5+5, and 5 will remain at Edinburgh, while the other 5 will travel to the destination. I’m guessing that 5 would go to Craigentinny (if that’s where they’re going to be kept).

 

[Aictos]

If they go with the 5+5 option, you would only have to swap trains at Edinburgh if you sat in the wrong portion.

And surely the systems are clever enough to ensure you're booked in the portion that continues to Inverness/Aberdeen from the station you boarded at without you having to change at Edinburgh?

 

[gsnedders]

I know a lot may change but the Inverness / Aberdeen services look like they will get slowed down South of Edinburgh calling at Doncaster and Peterborough.

Shows that LNER are not trying to compete with air. Although lots do the journey end to end. There are significant flows from Northern England to Scotland.

The Aberdeen services at least used to call at Peterborough, though I know that's been a while.

And surely the systems are clever enough to ensure you're booked in the portion that continues to Inverness/Aberdeen from the station you boarded at without you having to change at Edinburgh?

Yes, they are. Splitting services with reservations aren't a new thing in this country.

 

[najaB]

I may be misunderstanding how you are reading it, but I don’t believe it’s a 10 coach IET from London that will split into 5+5 (one Aberdeen, one Inverness portion).

No, you're not misunderstanding. I also thought that it would be 5+5 from London and then 5 onwards to Inverness or Aberdeen. It was the comment that there might be additional Inverness services that caught my eye, since if 5 went to Inverness the other 5 would have to go somewhere since they aren't going to send 5 back down to London by themselves.

Hence I was trying to work out if/how they could send one half to each of the northern cities.

 

[BRX]

It would probably be more useful if it split at Perth going southbound, with one half going down the WCML and one going down the east!

Inverness did once have direct services through to the WCML (aside from the sleeper). It would open up a lot of connection opportunities, meaning many journeys from Inverness could be made with one change rather than two.

 

[Iskra]

No, you're not misunderstanding. I also thought that it would be 5+5 from London and then 5 onwards to Inverness or Aberdeen. It was the comment that there might be additional Inverness services that caught my eye, since if 5 went to Inverness the other 5 would have to go somewhere since they aren't going to send 5 back down to London by themselves.

Hence I was trying to work out if/how they could send one half to each of the northern cities.

Surely they just split 5+5 and when it comes to heading back South, the Aberdeen just departs x hours x minutes later to synchronise the arrival time at Edinburgh. Doesn't seem too difficult to me? Plenty of stabling space at Aberdeen.