Protocol when overshooting a station

[jimbo99]

No doubt there is proper industry jargon for what happened on Sunday.

Was travelling from Redhill to East Croydon last Sunday evening on a Thameslink. Departed Redhill a few minutes late.

I was in the 10th carriage. The train stopped at Merstham but the doors didn't open. The driver made an announcement saying something to the effect he had gone past the end of the platform. From my window, it looked only the first one or two carriages has gone beyond the end of the platform, but it was dark and I am not sure. It seems we were stuck for around 5 minutes before in his third announcement he he said he was sincerely sorry but people wanting Merstham would have to change at Coulsdon South. He had been told by a controller to continue on.

I do not know how many people wished to alight, but I could see there were plenty of people at Merstham wishing to board. There were a couple of staff on the platform too. They were in dayglo, but they could have cleaners I suppose.

This left me curious. To your average punter, it seems ridiculous that rear doors could not have been opened to let pax off and on. People can easily move down the trains. No doubt there are all sorts of technical reasons why this cannot happen.

Can someone enlighten me as to the process involved when this happens, what is taken into consideration and in what circumstances the doors could have been opened?

 

[james_the_xv]

As far as I know, most stock with SDO open doors with respect to the front of the train.

The driver can't reverse as it is unsafe, although annoyingly the safest thing to do in this situation is to miss the station.

 

[37057]

Safest or quickest?!

Obviously not knowing the situation here but it sounds like the TOC avoided opening a single local door or manually locking doors out of use that aren't on the platform to avoid paying extra delay minutes... it is utterly ridiculous, there are ways of gaining access to a train without enabling all doors ASDO fitted or not.

 

[randyrippley]

Times change..........years ago I was on a class 33 hauled train and the driver totally overshot Templecombe in the dark. No problem.......emergency brake application, reverse half a mile and we were back in the platform. No waiting for approval. Maybe the proximity of the signal box made things easier...

 

[Raul_Duke]

In theory, the signaller can, at their discretion, authorise you to set back (different to reversing) as long as it’s less than 400m (iirc) and there’s no automatic level crossings without wrong direction treadles etc etc.

In practice most lines are that busy that what you described would happen. And if it was misjudgment of braking rather than low adhesion expect a meeting with your DM sometime tomorrow.


Must revise for my next rules....

 

[Dieseldriver]

I've overshot a station as a Driver and in my case, I was unable to change ends and return to the platform as the Signaller was unable to give me authorisation. I therefore had to continue without calling at the station I'd failed to stop at. Felt awful about what had happened, it was a massive dent in my professional pride, a stain on my otherwise unblemished record (which could have repercussions if I were to apply for another TOC) and the whole event scared me as it was a reality check as to how easy it can be to make an uncorrectable error in this job.
Rules state that if the overshoot is less than 1/4 mile, you are given authority by the Signaller who has ensured the safety of the wrong direction move, you may change ends and return to the platform.
Please remember in these instances, the Driver has made an honest and simple mistake which they are fully accountable for and will be investigated, interviewed and possibly stood down for depending on the circumstances.

 

[theking]

Surprised no one egressed themselves if the train was in the platform.

At my toc lock out the doors not on the platform open the rest.
If fully overshot continue to next station.
Only ever time we will set back is if it's the last train.

 

[scrapy]

Safest or quickest?!

Obviously not knowing the situation here but it sounds like the TOC avoided opening a single local door or manually locking doors out of use that aren't on the platform to avoid paying extra delay minutes... it is utterly ridiculous, there are ways of gaining access to a train without enabling all doors ASDO fitted or not.

It's not just about delay minutes it's about inconveniencing as few passengers as least as possible. If causing a longer delay means the Train delaying several other services and causing many missed connections and possibly knock on on the return journey then unfortunately the decision will be taken to cut one stop and carry on especially at stations where there is a regular service.

Very unlikely a train would not be given permission to return to a station on a service that infrequent (subject to satisfying requirements of rulebook and any local instructions) although I know Clifton (Manchester) 2tpd has been overshot a few times and the following service which is just behind has called instead.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

About 4 months ago, I was on a train to Sevenoaks that stopped at Knockholt but failed to open the doors. The train sat there for about 1 minute with no announcements and then started to pull away before abruptly stopping again. After another two minutes of silence, the driver clicked on the Tannoy and rather abruptly announced that the alarm had been pulled and that he'd need to go and reset it. Then after another minute, the doors opened and people left the train.

Being the curious sort of guy that I am, decided to stick my head out the door to see what was going on. Sitting just behind us, just outside of the station was a 375 that had managed to catch up with us. And looking the other way, there were at least two carriages of our 465 that were no longer in the station but had BILs lit up.

Needless to say, I forwarded a recalling of these events to the relevant department. The response "assured" me that the trains have SDO so that doors opening outside of a station wouldn't be a problem. My (admittedly limited) knowledge of 465s, as well as the picture I took that afternoon, cast some doubt into that assurance.

The safest move in this instance would have been to inform the passengers that the train would no longer be calling there, or that there had been a fault with the doors. But agreed procedures mean very little if someone at the controls makes multiple errors in judgement.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The train is a 12 car DOO. To set back, the driver would have to walk the length of the train. To open doors, the driver would have to manually perform this function, then close them again. Far too time consuming. Trains will be queueing up behind.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

In theory, the signaller can, at their discretion, authorise you to set back (different to reversing) as long as it’s less than 400m (iirc) and there’s no automatic level crossings without wrong direction treadles etc etc.

In practice most lines are that busy that what you described would happen. And if it was misjudgment of braking rather than low adhesion expect a meeting with your DM sometime tomorrow.


Must revise for my next rules....

400metres is correct and it’s automatic half barrier level crossings

 

[Raul_Duke]

400metres is correct and it’s automatic half barrier level crossings

That was my first answer, but it didn’t sound right so I changed it. I’ll remember for next rules!

 

[ComUtoR]

About 4 months ago, I was on a train to Sevenoaks that stopped at Knockholt but failed to open the doors. The train sat there for about 1 minute with no announcements and then started to pull away before abruptly stopping again. After another two minutes of silence, the driver clicked on the Tannoy and rather abruptly announced that the alarm had been pulled and that he'd need to go and reset it. Then after another minute, the doors opened and people left the train.

I've had this happen to me. Pop the doors and sit and wait for people to get on and then get off. Leave the station and get a passcom Turned out there was a really weird fault that prevented some of the doors opening.

Needless to say, I forwarded a recalling of these events to the relevant department.

Which department ?

The response "assured" me that the trains have SDO so that doors opening outside of a station wouldn't be a problem. My (admittedly limited) knowledge of 465s, as well as the picture I took that afternoon, cast some doubt into that assurance.

465s have a limited SDO

 

[mmh]

Please remember in these instances, the Driver has made an honest and simple mistake which they are fully accountable for and will be investigated, interviewed and possibly stood down for depending on the circumstances.

Hear, hear. Mistakes happen, it's not the end of the world.

Coincidentally a few days ago I was on the last train of the day which failed to stop at my request stop. I wouldn't dream of complaining as the guard realised, apologised without me saying anything (I wasn't going to) and began offering to arrange a taxi back. I told him not to worry as the effect to me was only a 10 minute walk becoming a 15 minute one.

Life's too short to be getting people into trouble for the sake of it.

 

[DarloRich]

Code brown. New pants for the driver!

 

[43096]

I've overshot a station as a Driver and in my case, I was unable to change ends and return to the platform as the Signaller was unable to give me authorisation. I therefore had to continue without calling at the station I'd failed to stop at. Felt awful about what had happened, it was a massive dent in my professional pride, a stain on my otherwise unblemished record (which could have repercussions if I were to apply for another TOC) and the whole event scared me as it was a reality check as to how easy it can be to make an uncorrectable error in this job.
Rules state that if the overshoot is less than 1/4 mile, you are given authority by the Signaller who has ensured the safety of the wrong direction move, you may change ends and return to the platform.
Please remember in these instances, the Driver has made an honest and simple mistake which they are fully accountable for and will be investigated, interviewed and possibly stood down for depending on the circumstances.

Aren't you actually better just missing the stop (i.e. releasing the brake and carrying on)? I was once told - not sure if it is the case or not - that overshooting is less acceptable than a forgot to call.

Had a couple over the years where Reading-Waterloo line trains failed to call at Putney. First was on an up run where only the first two trains call at Putney on a weekday, driver realised he wasn't going to stop in time, released the brake and we carried on to Clapham and Waterloo. Train met, as you'd expect, by the man with the laptop for an OTMR download. Other was a down run on a Saturday during engineering works with Reading trains calling at Putney (which they don't on the down on a weekday or Saturday). Both entirely understandable mistakes to make - those 'odd' station calls must be a right pain if you drive a line regularly. I should say, it probably says more that out of the several hundred journeys I've done on that line it's only happened twice.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Aren't you actually better just missing the stop (i.e. releasing the brake and carrying on)? I was once told - not sure if it is the case or not - that overshooting is less acceptable than a forgot to call.

Had a couple over the years where Reading-Waterloo line trains failed to call at Putney. First was on an up run where only the first two trains call at Putney on a weekday, driver realised he wasn't going to stop in time, released the brake and we carried on to Clapham and Waterloo. Train met, as you'd expect, by the man with the laptop for an OTMR download. Other was a down run on a Saturday during engineering works with Reading trains calling at Putney (which they don't on the down on a weekday or Saturday). Both entirely understandable mistakes to make - those 'odd' station calls must be a right pain if you drive a line regularly. I should say, it probably says more that out of the several hundred journeys I've done on that line it's only happened twice.

Can't just carry on if you've already put the brake handle into emergency. The whole thing about overshoots being worse than a fail to call doesn't really carry much weight nowadays. In my case I didn't overshoot due to misjudgement of the handling of the train, it was down to me completely missing the fact I was supposed to stop there and when I came barrelling around the curve at linespeed, I went to select full service (fat lot of good that would have done) and inadvertently went into emergency. For that nano second of a slim hope, it seemed worth trying to stop but within the next nano second, I came to my senses and resigned myself to the fact that the platform would be half a mile behind me by the time I stopped.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Aren't you actually better just missing the stop (i.e. releasing the brake and carrying on)? I was once told - not sure if it is the case or not - that overshooting is less acceptable than a forgot to call.

Had a couple over the years where Reading-Waterloo line trains failed to call at Putney. First was on an up run where only the first two trains call at Putney on a weekday, driver realised he wasn't going to stop in time, released the brake and we carried on to Clapham and Waterloo. Train met, as you'd expect, by the man with the laptop for an OTMR download. Other was a down run on a Saturday during engineering works with Reading trains calling at Putney (which they don't on the down on a weekday or Saturday). Both entirely understandable mistakes to make - those 'odd' station calls must be a right pain if you drive a line regularly. I should say, it probably says more that out of the several hundred journeys I've done on that line it's only happened twice.

You used to get “points” on your licence at our place. A fail to call was less points than an over-run, so you work it out....

Nowadays you can/will be interrogated and put on a plan for some quite minor things, a “station stopping incident,” which is overrun down to SDO incident, is second only to a SPAD for us now.

 

[michael74]

I was on a 5 car XC voyager a few years ago (for whatever reason) we stopped with the first 2 carriages off Dawlish platform, the driver apologised for a short delay while he speaks with the signaller (que the walk of shame) he changed ends moved back into the station etc etc. Do the Bog Boxes not have SDO, I assume the rules would prevent SDO being used in that situation?

 

[221129]

I was on a 5 car XC voyager a few years ago (for whatever reason) we stopped with the first 2 carriages off Dawlish platform, the driver apologised for a short delay while he speaks with the signaller (que the walk of shame) he changed ends moved back into the station etc etc. Do the Bog Boxes not have SDO, I assume the rules would prevent SDO being used in that situation?

There is no SDO on a Voyager. It's all or nothing.

 

[michael74]

There is no SDO on a Voyager. It's all or nothing.

Fair enough

 

[Flipflopkebab]

December’s rule book update has changed the bit about passing over an AHBC. The signaller will not permit such a move.

 

[scragend]

Had a couple over the years where Reading-Waterloo line trains failed to call at Putney. First was on an up run where only the first two trains call at Putney on a weekday, driver realised he wasn't going to stop in time, released the brake and we carried on to Clapham and Waterloo. Train met, as you'd expect, by the man with the laptop for an OTMR download. Other was a down run on a Saturday during engineering works with Reading trains calling at Putney (which they don't on the down on a weekday or Saturday). Both entirely understandable mistakes to make - those 'odd' station calls must be a right pain if you drive a line regularly. I should say, it probably says more that out of the several hundred journeys I've done on that line it's only happened twice.

I noticed earlier this year that signs have appeared at the front end of the Wigan-bound platform at Hindley station which just say "Your next stop is?". I'm guessing that's to remind drivers to stop at Ince if they're driving one of the few trains that are actually booked to stop there.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Which department ?

I used the standard "contact" form (submitted as "enquiry") and politely requested if they could forward it on to the relevant depot, DM, or anyone else they believe it should go to, just in case they needed to investigate whether there was a defect with the train, or if they needed to sit down with the driver and give them a once-over to make sure that they are fit, healthy and well enough to get back into the seat the next day without putting themselves or the passengers in any undue harm.

I'm sure most will agree with me that safety always comes first, but staff welfare is also incredibly important to me.

465s have a limited SDO

That's the "first door/last door" thing, right? I don't think I've ever seen it in use, haha.

 

[LCC106]

In theory, the signaller can, at their discretion, authorise you to set back (different to reversing) as long as it’s less than 400m (iirc) and there’s no automatic level crossings without wrong direction treadles etc etc.

In practice most lines are that busy that what you described would happen. And if it was misjudgment of braking rather than low adhesion expect a meeting with your DM sometime tomorrow.


Must revise for my next rules....

Not wishing to sound pedantic but a setback would be against rules. Tea maybe and no biscuits definitely. For those who may not understand the terminology you would have to change ends, drive from (the now) leading cab and change ends again. A setback is essentially reversing the train (edit to elaborate drive the train in reverse from other than the leading cab in the direction of travel), unless I’ve misinterpreted. Hope not to have confused things!

 

[tsr]

Not wishing to sound pedantic but a setback would be against rules. Tea maybe and no biscuits definitely. For those who may not understand the terminology you would have to change ends, drive from (the now) leading cab and change ends again.

"Setting back" is the usual term for the procedure you've described first (as quoted), not reversing the train.

 

[Strat-tastic]

Deletoriously treated.

 

[Raul_Duke]

Not wishing to sound pedantic but a setback would be against rules. Tea maybe and no biscuits definitely. For those who may not understand the terminology you would have to change ends, drive from (the now) leading cab and change ends again. A setback is essentially reversing the train (edit to elaborate drive the train in reverse from other than the leading cab in the direction of travel), unless I’ve misinterpreted. Hope not to have confused things!

That’s why I put “different to reversing,” it’s generally called setting back into a station.

 

[Idiotic]

Downside to them trains being DOO operated (not turning it into one of those threads). But if it was a train with a Guard. Then the Guard could open a local door and allow people on and off through that which would be accommodated.

Yeah only other way nowadays is change ends and realign on the platform. Takes a lot of effort depending on the stock, rules, platform length etc.

 

[Dstock7080]

LU Rules now allow a train to be set-back (ie. reversed from leading cab) by up to one-car length on most of the network; except Wimbledon-Putney Bridge, Network Rail lines, stations with platform edge doors.