Providing an exact location to control rooms when there are no identifiers around

[najaB]

With lat/long you’ve got to pass 17 digits, plus any commas and minus numbers, what 3 words you’re not looking at anywhere near that information.

We've already had a thread (or two) of people singing the praises of what three words, no need to hash that all out again.

 

[Ashley Hill]

In some ways you don't really start to know a route until you begin working over it in you're own right. I'd imagine that the whole issue of route learning is baffling to someone brand new to the industry.
Once passed out don't jump straight into tickets or newspapers (assuming you're a guard). Look out for the places you've learnt,look for something new and Google it if necessary,day or night!
It will all fall into place and you're confidence will grow.
As for What Three Words my TOC has not given any recommendation or briefing as to its use so presumably do not recognise it as a location tool.

 

[Llanigraham]

They may also never have heard of a what three words. Latitude and longitude are universal.

Fine, except how am I supposed to find that reference? I've just checked my phone and I don't get it, but I can get W3W to give me a reference in less than 2 minutes. Plus I've only got to transmit 3 words, not 10 or 12 numbers. I know from running safety radio systems in events that when people are flustered mistakes happen so the simpler the info being passed the better.

 

[Horizon22]

I've seen incidents in logs that have used what 3 words at particularly remote (and some less so) locations on the network.

 

[Mojo]

I've seen incidents in logs that have used what 3 words at particularly remote (and some less so) locations on the network.

BTP make quite heavy use of what3words for location of trespassers, lineside access gates, etc.

 

[etr221]

Hey all,

So I've been thinking, if the Train Service Manager, Signaller or Electrical Control Room needs your specific location, and there are no signals, mile post markers, structure numbers or similar within view, what is the next best thing that they would find useful?

I have an app on my personal phone that, from GPS, can produce the following:

- Degrees, minutes and seconds
- Degrees and minutes
- Decimal degrees
- MGRS
- UTM
- What 3 words
- Georef
- Plus Codes

Alternatively there is an app called Track Locator that produces an output I don't understand, possibly yards and 'chains'? A random example I just tried near Fenchurch Street Is "FSS1 0+466y (21.18ch)"

Lewis - firstly, out of curiosity, what is the app that you have, that will give you location (from GPS) in those formats (several of which I would be surprised to see in practical use in the UK)?

Then, regarding your question, what surprises me, as an enthusiast rather than a railway man, is that the railway does not seem to have a standard basic common system - whatever it might be - that anybody needing to give or receive a more or less precise location on the system (whether on or about the line or in an office) will know and be able to use (including conversion to and from whatever else they might understand).

And (understanding that you are an out and about railwayman), being surprised that your employer hasn't instructed you about it (and if it uses an app, provided that).

(I might expect it to be ELR & miles and chains (or yds), as produced by Track Locator, but not for me to say).

I've expressed my view of w3w before so won't say more on it now, beyond that it isn't what I would choose.

 

[MissPWay]

Route knowledge of several miles of identical looking fields with no identifying information nearby? Sounds like route knowledge would come in handy!

I'm only 3-5 months in to the routes I work over but can barely remember a quarter of the level crossings, few bridges and only one tunnel. The knowledge just naturally fades and, as I understand it, unlike other roles which get time to refresh on routes, I don't.

Yes. And in the dark, and in the fog and in falling snow.

I mean this politely, but if you’ve already forgotten the tunnels and level crossings then you never really knew them to begin with. It’s not necessarily your fault, but you should know them and the people in charge of your competencies should be ensuring you know them.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes. And in the dark, and in the fog and in falling snow.

I mean this politely, but if you’ve already forgotten the tunnels and level crossings then you never really knew them to begin with. It’s not necessarily your fault, but you should know them and the people in charge of your competencies should be ensuring you know them.

To be fair route learning by rote is rubbish anyway. One of our now retired inspectors used to get you to talk him through the principle features of the route from one end to the other in a random direction and if you did that right filling in the questions was a formality. If he wasn't happy with the first bit you weren't given the questions at all.

Too much focus on filling in paperwork and not enough on ensuring the underpinning knowledge is actually there nowadays.

It took a couple of trips in charge of a train for it to actually all sink in mind. As a guard you're only expected to be familiar with the route nowadays. That being said for all of mine (and I sign somewhere between 500 and 1000 miles of railway) I'm at a point where for them I can reel off all of the level crossings and everything in far more detail than a guard's route exam (no mean feat in the Fens!) and even have most of the signalling away from stations and other bits more relevant to drivers down pat.

Much more of that came from working as an experienced guard than a newbie's route learning trips which are mostly stumbling around in the dark.

 

[Mcq]

Near miss at Rowlands Castle - NR staff retrieving bag - wrong signal box informed
According to BBC News Hampshire site

 

[pompeyfan]

Near miss at Rowlands Castle - NR staff retrieving bag - wrong signal box informed
According to BBC News Hampshire site

theres an RAIB investigation into it but I don’t see how that’s relevant to this discussion. Certainly worth starting a thread though

 

[PG]

theres an RAIB investigation into it but I don’t see how that’s relevant to this discussion. Certainly worth starting a thread though

Thread on that is here.

 

[philthetube]

They may also never have heard of a what three words. Latitude and longitude are universal.

They may be universal, but speaking for myself they are only universal is so much as I have heard of them, so would not be able to use them, and I am sure I am not the only one, I could cope with grid references but am sure many have not seen them since school.

 

[najaB]

They may be universal, but speaking for myself they are only universal is so much as I have heard of them, so would not be able to use them, and I am sure I am not the only one, I could cope with grid references but am sure many have not seen them since school.

You can literally type them into Google.

 

[PG]

You can literally type them into Google.

While that is true I don't think it's widely known.

 

[Spartacus]

They may be universal, but speaking for myself they are only universal is so much as I have heard of them, so would not be able to use them, and I am sure I am not the only one, I could cope with grid references but am sure many have not seen them since school.

That's one of the big issues with them, a lack of confidence, and that can also lead to errors. There's also a greater risk of numbers getting transposed than whole words, especially when being read from, then repeated over, the same medium, quite possibly in less than ideal circumstances.

 

[najaB]

There's also a greater risk of numbers getting transposed than whole words, especially when being read from, then repeated over, the same medium, quite possibly in less than ideal circumstances.

You do, however, have the issue that if someone isn't familiar with the word used, then you're back into spelling over the same medium, in the same less than ideal circumstances.

What three words is a clever idea, it's not the panacea that its promoters makes it out to be.

 

[Llanigraham]

You do, however, have the issue that if someone isn't familiar with the word used, then you're back into spelling over the same medium, in the same less than ideal circumstances.

What three words is a clever idea, it's not the panacea that its promoters makes it out to be.

Then why are the likes of BTP and other emergency users promoting it?

 

[1955LR]

Begs the question of how the alert for the location of somewhere isolated like the Grayrigg crash was sent out to the emergency services. Were 999 calls from mobiles triangulated? Or would the track circuitry be accurate enough to ID the location?

A friend of mine , an ambulance paramedic was the first one on the scene at Grayrigg and needed to report back to control as to the severity. They had no real idea where the incident was other than between two distant points on the track . He was local to the area but it was pitch black and trying to locate it across open fields & tracks was indeed difficult .He had to leave the ambulance because they couldn't get near with it . He could not confirm the power was off , but he took the decision that as all the overhead was down he would go in and report back.

 

[railneighbour]

If you were to provide a W3W reference to your control they’d google it whilst on the phone on their desktop, nice and simple.

My only issue with W3W is how long it can take to triangulate your position. If you’re in the middle of nowhere and it can’t download a map, it’s very difficult to make sure it’s within a useful radius.

The time to triangulate in the middle of nowhere is most likely because your phone relies on being able to use the mobile phone towers to get an initial triangulation. Without mobile phone signal it has to solely rely on GPS satellites, which tends to take longer but is more accurate. You'd get the same in any app.

 

[najaB]

Then why are the likes of BTP and other emergency users promoting it?

It's actually a bit of a toss-up as to if they're actively promoting it. Mountain Rescue for one aren't in favour of it and other emergency services have said that they still prefer postcodes.

 

[MissPWay]

It's actually a bit of a toss-up as to if they're actively promoting it. Mountain Rescue for one aren't in favour of it and other emergency services have said that they still prefer postcodes.

I don’t think that reads as they’re not in favour of it, they seem to be saying learn to read a bloody map so you don’t have to use it to get them to hoik you off a windswept mountain somewhere.

 

[SignallerJohn]

How is anyone in this thread suggesting coordinates are better than what3words, I’m baffled

 

[Intermodal]

How is anyone in this thread suggesting coordinates are better than what3words, I’m baffled

Back in my day, we didn't need no words!

 

[Llanigraham]

It's actually a bit of a toss-up as to if they're actively promoting it. Mountain Rescue for one aren't in favour of it and other emergency services have said that they still prefer postcodes.

Funny but I don't read that article as saying they aren't in favour of it, more saying that there are other ways that can be used as well.
And which emergency services have said they prefer post codes? I can find none that state that. In fact I know that the Ambulance Service here prefer either map references or W3W, because post codes cover far too big an area. I've been sent W3W refs for patients I am transporting to hospital.

 

[the sniper]

I'm only 3-5 months in to the routes I work over but can barely remember a quarter of the level crossings, few bridges and only one tunnel. The knowledge just naturally fades and, as I understand it, unlike other roles which get time to refresh on routes, I don't.

No offence, but that is something you need to work on.

I'm not sure what a signaller would make of a member of train crew asking them if they had the what3words app while reporting an issue in a tunnel on their route...

 

[najaB]

Funny but I don't read that article as saying they aren't in favour of it, more saying that there are other ways that can be used as well

I'm speaking to the various ads which W3W were running showing people in distress using the service. The point made in the article is that W3W isn't a panacea, and that people shouldn't head out into the wilderness depending on it, which the advertising campaign strongly hinted at.

One example told the story of a climber who was injured in a fall on a high mountain - it may have been Everest, saying how he was rescued by contacting the rescuers (99% sure it was in WhatsApp), who told him to download the app and send his location using W3W coordinates. Somehow it seemed to completely bypass everyone that they were introducing unnecessary complication to the process (the location button in WhatsApp!)

For completeness (and hopefully to end this side discussion) I have zero problem with the concept behind W3W, my issue is that they have oversold what they do (use a simple algorithm to convert geolocation data provided by the mobile device to another set of coordinates specified in a different system), and that they have kept the algorithm and database proprietary.

At its root, they don't do anything more fancy than convert lat/long to OS grid reference.

The fact that both the database and algorithm are secret gives them the ability (if not the intention) to lock people into their system, something that we should all be wary of.

And which emergency services have said they prefer post codes?

I will need to look for it, but I read an article that said at least one service preferred postcodes since that's what satnav systems are set up to use, probably more of an issue in urban rather than rural areas (since the postcodes cover a smaller area).

 

[SignallerJohn]

I will need to look for it, but I read an article that said at least one service preferred postcodes since that's what satnav systems are set up to use, probably more of an issue in urban rather than rural areas (since the postcodes cover a smaller area).

No offence but if someone rang my area of control quoting a postcode I would be absolutely confused because of how much area I cover. And I live locally! There’s guys who live 90 minutes away who don’t even know the postcode of where we work!

 

[najaB]

No offence but if someone rang my area of control quoting a postcode I would be absolutely confused because of how much area I cover. And I live locally! There’s guys who live 90 minutes away who don’t even know the postcode of where we work!

It wasn't railway control, it was a blue-light service.

 

[theironroad]

By the nature of the job no driver or guard is going to know any useful detail of postcode for the areas they travel through. Outside of their immediate home town area most people would struggle to even know the first two letters of another area postcode.

I do believe swr guards are issued with a booklet/pdf of postcodes of all stations on SWR for use in requesting ambulance or police as postcodes do seem to be their preferred means of location.

 

[SignallerJohn]

By the nature of the job no driver or guard is going to know any useful detail of postcode for the areas they travel through. Outside of their immediate home town area most people would struggle to even know the first two letters of another area postcode.

I do believe swr guards are issued with a booklet/pdf of postcodes of all stations on SWR for use in requesting ambulance or police as postcodes do seem to be their preferred means of location.

Don’t get me on the soap box about how any guard or driver should immediately stop their train if they are reporting anything. I’ve lost count of the times the reporting of a rough ride or a noise was heard 10 minutes ago or something to that effect.