Provisionally approved prosecution

[Aisha]

I received an MG11 in April & 2 days ago I got a letter stating my case had been provisionally approved for prosecution. I was stopped at stratford international but my ticket was only valid to ebbsfleet international. I've looked at the MG11 again & it says i was stopped at ebbsfleet instead of stratford. I think the inspector made a mistake, could they still look to prosecute? because i had a valid ticket for the journey indicated on the MG11. I was caught without a ticket in 2019 with southeastern but i just paid the penalty fare on the train. Due to this im concerned they'll look to prosecute & i cant risk that as i work for the police. Of anyone can assist i would be most grateful.

 

[30907]

I received an MG11 in April & 2 days ago I got a letter stating my case had been provisionally approved for prosecution. I was stopped at stratford international but my ticket was only valid to ebbsfleet international. I've looked at the MG11 again & it says i was stopped at ebbsfleet instead of stratford. I think the inspector made a mistake, could they still look to prosecute? because i had a valid ticket for the journey indicated on the MG11. I was caught without a ticket in 2019 with southeastern but i just paid the penalty fare on the train. Due to this im concerned they'll look to prosecute & i cant risk that as i work for the police. Of anyone can assist i would be most grateful.

What station does the letter refer to?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum! I have put below the advice I usually give to people who seek advice in similar circumstances to yourself.

I assume the letter you have received from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding whether to proceed. It is important that engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this, and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court, however harsh this may seem.

The fact that there is an administrative error in the letter you have received wouldn't normally prevent a prosecution from happening as this can be corrected. Being brutally honest I wouldn't rely on this to try and get out of the situation you are in especially given that you work for the police. I would do everything I could to try and settle out of court.

It is possible that the train company might take a harsher line as you have come to their attention before but if you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don’t think that grasping at technicalities will of itself prevent a prosecution. The courts will be familiar with the fact that people make mistakes - and that includes the railway mistakenly writing down the wrong station. Should this case go to court, then the first thing that the railway’s witnesses will do is explain that they made a mistake when they wrote to MG11.

At this point, you need to concentrate on avoiding the matter going to court. Following @Hadders ’ excellent advice above is what to do at once.

I am not familiar with police employment practices. I assume that as you ‘work for the police’ that you are civilian staff. If so, then you should probably talk to your union as soon as possible, in that I have no difficulty imagining that your employer may require you to report not just being convicted but also being investigated. Your union rep should know, and should be able to advise on what your employer should and should not be told. If you’re an officer, I further imagine that the same applies only with your Fed rep.

 

[Aisha]

What station does the letter refer to?

The letter states it was issued at ebbsfleet international & states my journey was from gravesend to ebbsfleet international

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What ticket type was held, if any?

 

[Aisha]

Welcome to the forum! I have put below the advice I usually give to people who seek advice in similar circumstances to yourself.

I assume the letter you have received from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding whether to proceed. It is important that engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this, and the train company is within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court, however harsh this may seem.

The fact that there is an administrative error in the letter you have received wouldn't normally prevent a prosecution from happening as this can be corrected. Being brutally honest I wouldn't rely on this to try and get out of the situation you are in especially given that you work for the police. I would do everything I could to try and settle out of court.

It is possible that the train company might take a harsher line as you have come to their attention before but if you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be around a hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

When i received the 1st penalty i was looking for rental properties in kent & didnt know dartford was the last oyster stop. When the inspector came & asked for tickets i showed my card then he explained i need a ticket for kent sides & can resume contactless in london. I took that literally so thats why i had a ticket for gravesend to ebbsfleet then tapped out at stratford

I don’t think that grasping at technicalities will of itself prevent a prosecution. The courts will be familiar with the fact that people make mistakes - and that includes the railway mistakenly writing down the wrong station. Should this case go to court, then the first thing that the railway’s witnesses will do is explain that they made a mistake when they wrote to MG11.

At this point, you need to concentrate on avoiding the matter going to court. Following @Hadders ’ excellent advice above is what to do at once.

I am not familiar with police employment practices. I assume that as you ‘work for the police’ that you are civilian staff. If so, then you should probably talk to your union as soon as possible, in that I have no difficulty imagining that your employer may require you to report not just being convicted but also being investigated. Your union rep should know, and should be able to advise on what your employer should and should not be told. If you’re an officer, I further imagine that the same applies only with your Fed rep.

I definitely will be speaking with my union regarding this as im police staff. I did write back apologising & stating that the officer explained properly how to travel from kent to london & i have since been doing so correctly. I also stated i would pay any costs immediately

What ticket type was held, if any?

I purchased a return for the southeastern high speed train then tapped out at stratford

 

[MikeWh]

When i received the 1st penalty i was looking for rental properties in kent & didnt know dartford was the last oyster stop. When the inspector came & asked for tickets i showed my card then he explained i need a ticket for kent sides & can resume contactless in london. I took that literally so thats why i had a ticket for gravesend to ebbsfleet then tapped out at stratford

Contactless payments are valid out to Dartford on the slow services via London Bridge. On HS1 they are only valid between Stratford International and St Pancras International.

I purchased a return for the southeastern high speed train then tapped out at stratford

For the future, if you are using contactless then you must touch in at the start and out at the end of every journey. You cannot combine contactless with other tickets unless you get off the train where you switch from tickets to PAYG.

 

[Aisha]

Contactless payments are valid out to Dartford on the slow services via London Bridge. On HS1 they are only valid between Stratford International and St Pancras International.


For the future, if you are using contactless then you must touch in at the start and out at the end of every journey. You cannot combine contactless with other tickets unless you get off the train where you switch from tickets to PAYG.

Yh the officer explained it to me in full detail so now i have key smartcard & get tickets for the full journey. Prior to being in kent i've been in london all my life & get free travel via bus nominee so i never took railways only bus or underground

 

[island]

I would like to make sure we get the exact sequence of events straight here as it might be of relevance. Please answer the following questions clearly, ideally using the same numbering.

1. What was your intended start and finish station of the entire journey?
2. Did you hold any ticket for your journey besides Gravesend to Ebbsfleet International?
3. At what exact station were you stopped by a revenue inspector? (Stratford International?)
4. Where in the station were you stopped?
5. Did the inspector ask you for a ticket, and if so, what did you give or show to him or her?
6. How were you intending on paying for the part of your journey from Ebbsfleet International to Stratford International, given you had already been told Oyster is not valid at Ebbsfleet?

I am asking these questions because I want to understand whether you have committed any offences.

 

[Haywain]

I would like to make sure we get the exact sequence of events straight here as it might be of relevance. Please answer the following questions clearly, ideally using the same numbering.

1. What was your intended start and finish station of the entire journey?
2. Did you hold any ticket for your journey besides Gravesend to Ebbsfleet International?
3. At what exact station were you stopped by a revenue inspector? (Stratford International?)
4. Where in the station were you stopped?
5. Did the inspector ask you for a ticket, and if so, what did you give or show to him or her?
6. How were you intending on paying for the part of your journey from Ebbsfleet International to Stratford International, given you had already been told Oyster is not valid at Ebbsfleet?

I am asking these questions because I want to understand whether you have committed any offences.

A more relevant question might be what was used to tap out at Stratford?

 

[Aisha]

I would like to make sure we get the exact sequence of events straight here as it might be of relevance. Please answer the following questions clearly, ideally using the same numbering.

1. What was your intended start and finish station of the entire journey?
2. Did you hold any ticket for your journey besides Gravesend to Ebbsfleet International?
3. At what exact station were you stopped by a revenue inspector? (Stratford International?)
4. Where in the station were you stopped?
5. Did the inspector ask you for a ticket, and if so, what did you give or show to him or her?
6. How were you intending on paying for the part of your journey from Ebbsfleet International to Stratford International, given you had already been told Oyster is not valid at Ebbsfleet?

I am asking these questions because I want to understand whether you have committed any offences.

Start journey was gravesend & finish journey stratford international. I only purchased a ticket from gravesend to ebbsfleet then used my bank card to tap out in stratford. After i tapped out i was stopped by the revenue inspector. I showed him my ticket from gravesend to ebbsfleet & the bank card i tapped out with. I just assumed tapping out at stratford international would cover it.

A more relevant question might be what was used to tap out at Stratford?

I used my bank card

 

[island]

Start journey was gravesend & finish journey stratford international. I only purchased a ticket from gravesend to ebbsfleet then used my bank card to tap out in stratford. After i tapped out i was stopped by the revenue inspector. I showed him my ticket from gravesend to ebbsfleet & the bank card i tapped out with. I just assumed tapping out at stratford international would cover it.


I used my bank card

Thank you for answering.

This sequence of actions is common amongst fare evaders and is often referred to as “doughnutting“, where tickets are held (or PAYG used) to cover the start and end of a journey but a hole is left in the middle. Revenue Protection Inspectors regularly keep watch at the ticket gates at Stratford International, where the pattern of train calls (three eastbound followed by three westbound most of the day) makes it quite easy to spot and intercept people who touch out on the barriers coming off a westbound train, and check whether they are using an ITSO card (which would usually be allowed) or an Oyster or contactless card (which would not).

I am not however of the view that you have in fact committed any offence here, as based on what you said, you:

• Held a valid ticket when you joined the train
• Showed your ticket when you were asked to do so
• Did not have an intent to avoid payment of the fare, as you thought (albeit incorrectly) that your actions would lead to you paying the correct fare

However the fare of £18.30 from Ebbsfleet to Stratford International remains outstanding and should be paid as soon as possible, and needless to say, you must be certain to buy the correct ticket in future as you will no longer be able to have the excuse that you “didn’t know”.

You will also need to be careful when responding to correspondence from Southeastern that you do not inadvertently incriminate yourself; we would suggest posting your reply here in draft prior to submitting it (remove all personal information of course) so that we can advise on it.

 

[Aisha]

Thank you for answering.

This sequence of actions is common amongst fare evaders and is often referred to as “doughnutting“, where tickets are held (or PAYG used) to cover the start and end of a journey but a hole is left in the middle. Revenue Protection Inspectors regularly keep watch at the ticket gates at Stratford International, where the pattern of train calls (three eastbound followed by three westbound most of the day) makes it quite easy to spot and intercept people who touch out on the barriers coming off a westbound train, and check whether they are using an ITSO card (which would usually be allowed) or an Oyster or contactless card (which would not).

I am not however of the view that you have in fact committed any offence here, as based on what you said, you:

• Held a valid ticket when you joined the train
• Showed your ticket when you were asked to do so
• Did not have an intent to avoid payment of the fare, as you thought (albeit incorrectly) that your actions would lead to you paying the correct fare

However the fare of £18.30 from Ebbsfleet to Stratford International remains outstanding and should be paid as soon as possible, and needless to say, you must be certain to buy the correct ticket in future as you will no longer be able to have the excuse that you “didn’t know”.

You will also need to be careful when responding to correspondence from Southeastern that you do not inadvertently incriminate yourself; we would suggest posting your reply here in draft prior to submitting it (remove all personal information of course) so that we can advise on it.

Thank you for your response. The enforcement officer kindly explained that as i've purchased a partial ticket & tapped out i've probably short paid a couple of change. As I had to reply in 7 days i have already sent my response -

I sincerely apologise for having the incorrect travelcard for the appropriate station I was travelling to. It was a grave error for which there is no excuse. On the day of the incident I purchased a ticket for the high speed southeastern train from Gravesend & proceeded to tap out at the end of the journey. I was stopped by a TFL enforcement agent & he questioned why i tapped out when I could've purchased the ticket for the full journey. I explained I was advised i would need a ticket for Kent & can resume contactless for London. The agent was kind enough to explain it possibly costed me more this way & advised purchasing the key smartcard & the 26-30 railcard, which I have done so. I usually get driven & have had free travel in London for most of my life which is why i wasnt familiar with the different ways to travel. I fully realise the severity of this matter and am willing to immediately pay the outstanding fare, any administration costs you have incurred, and an administrative penalty for the purposes of settling the matter.

 

[island]

Someone with more time will be able to give more details than this but (1) you didn’t have a Travelcard, you had a ticket, (2) you did not speak to a TFL staff member, it was a Southeastern staff member, and (3) you should fix the typos such as “wasnt“ (needs an apostrophe) and capitalising words such as “Southeastern” and “I”.

You may decide that for peace of mind you may wish to pay all of the above things but for the reasons I previously gave I do not believe you have committed an offence that you can be prosecuted for and you may end up overpaying.

 

[Aisha]

Someone with more time will be able to give more details than this but (1) you didn’t have a Travelcard, you had a ticket, (2) you did not speak to a TFL staff member, it was a Southeastern staff member, and (3) you should fix the typos such as “wasnt“ (needs an apostrophe) and capitalising words such as “Southeastern” and “I”.

You may decide that for peace of mind you may wish to pay all of the above things but for the reasons I previously gave I do not believe you have committed an offence that you can be prosecuted for and you may end up overpaying.

I think because I was panicking & want it resolved out of court I stated I would pay any fees. I thought they would still class it as an offence because i've technically partially paid for my journey.

 

[Haywain]

Did not have an intent to avoid payment of the fare, as you thought (albeit incorrectly) that your actions would lead to you paying the correct fare

Intent is judged by words and actions, not thoughts (see below). The action of not having a ticket would likely be sufficient, in my view. I also think there is enough for a byelaw prosecution to succeed - refer to this from the old Fares & Ticketing Guide:

Travelling with the intention of avoiding paying the Fare Due.
This may include: attempting to leaving a station on arrival at a destination without buying a ticket; travelling with another person's Season Ticket; buying a Child ticket while an adult; naming a station which is closer than the actual start of the journey when leaving a train without a ticket; etc.

This will be captured by the RoRA Section 5 Offence. See Section 8.2.1
It is central to this claim that the passenger was wilfully avoiding payment, even if that was only for a brief moment while an opportunity was available, not a long-term intention to avoid payment. The 'intention' to avoid payment will be determined by reference to their actions and their words, and not to their thoughts (see above).

Failure to produce a valid ticket.
This may include: travelling on the wrong train with an Advance ticket; travelling with a Railcard-discounted ticket without the necessary Railcard; being unable to produce both parts of a two-part ticket.

These errors are captured by Railway Byelaw 18 (in a non-Compulsory Ticket Area) or Byelaw 17 (in a Compulsory Ticket Area). See Section 8.2.2
This is a 'strict liability' matter and there is no implication that the passenger had intended to avoid the proper fare.

 

[island]

The question of intent would depend on what evidence was tendered to a court on the day, but I remain of the view that the passenger did not intend to avoid a fare in the legal sense as well as any other sense. She genuinely believed, albeit incorrectly, that her actions would lead to her paying the correct fare.

Byelaw 18.2 requires the passenger to produce/hand over “his ticket”. It does not require production of a valid ticket. As the passenger presented a ticket, this byelaw is not breached.

 

[Aisha]

Just to update you all, southeastern allowed me to settle out of court & pay £256.30. Thank you all for your help.

 

[Hadders]

Just to update you all, southeastern allowed me to settle out of court & pay £256.30. Thank you all for your help.

Thank you for letting us know. Glad you were able to sort it out.

 

[clagmonster]

In case it helps others in a similar situation (there are a couple of other open South Eastern cases on the board), did South Eastern give you a break down of how £256.30 was arrived at please? I would hazard a guess at £18.30 for the avoided fare from Gravesend to Stratford and £238 in administrative charges but the confirmation would be helpful.

This does see a rather large settlement but all the same glad you got the result you were looking for. In future, please ensure you have a valid ticket - you may not be so lucky if there were to be a next time.

 

[MikeWh]

Some posts have been deleted because they were not providing advice to the OP or others in a similar situation. Please refer to the pinned post in this forum for further information: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/

 

[Aisha]

In case it helps others in a similar situation (there are a couple of other open South Eastern cases on the board), did South Eastern give you a break down of how £256.30 was arrived at please? I would hazard a guess at £18.30 for the avoided fare from Gravesend to Stratford and £238 in administrative charges but the confirmation would be helpful.

This does see a rather large settlement but all the same glad you got the result you were looking for. In future, please ensure you have a valid ticket - you may not be so lucky if there were to be a next time.

The unpaid fare amounted to £6.30 & £250 for administrative fees