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Public Liability and Professional Indemnity Insurance

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Legolash2o

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Hi all,

I'm wanting to work on a few rail projects (software). I also want to cover myself in case someone uses many of the maps I've made and then something then goes wrong. One example is tagging a route as W10 but it's actually W8 and a high-cube container damages infrastructure or causes harm. Alternatively I could tag a Class 180 down a line where it isn't actually cleared.

Is there generally a good insurance company to go for within the rail sector?

Thanks.
 
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30907

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Hi all,

I'm wanting to work on a few rail projects (software). I also want to cover myself in case someone uses many of the maps I've made and then something then goes wrong. One example is tagging a route as W10 but it's actually W8 and a high-cube container damages infrastructure or causes harm. Alternatively I could tag a Class 180 down a line where it isn't actually cleared.

Can't answer your question, sorry, but a counter-question: as NR would be responsible for permitting the working anyway, would not a disclaimer be sufficient? Or does that no longer work?
 

zwk500

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2 issues here: Number 1: the first question NR will ask (and indeed, have asked because I was in the meeting) is 'Will this be 100% accurate for a safety critical purpose?' If it isn't 100% yes, they won't buy into it. If errors are discovered in the data input they won't touch the tool with a bargepole. This issue also needs to consider the date validity as well - but that will very much depend on what you agree to deliver.

Second issue: Depending on exactly what you agreed to deliver and to what standard, if somebody gets hurt there may be criminal liabilities as well as financial ones. However I don't know the law and your insurers will likely be aware of that risk as well.

Can't answer your question, sorry, but a counter-question: as NR would be responsible for permitting the working anyway, would not a disclaimer be sufficient? Or does that no longer work?
Depends what is agreed with NR to deliver.
 

Journeyman

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Hi all,

I'm wanting to work on a few rail projects (software). I also want to cover myself in case someone uses many of the maps I've made and then something then goes wrong. One example is tagging a route as W10 but it's actually W8 and a high-cube container damages infrastructure or causes harm. Alternatively I could tag a Class 180 down a line where it isn't actually cleared.

Is there generally a good insurance company to go for within the rail sector?

Thanks.
Policy Bee supply my insurance, which I've used for rail contracts. Have a chat with them.
 

jthjth

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Joined
10 Apr 2015
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169
Second issue: Depending on exactly what you agreed to deliver and to what standard, if somebody gets hurt there may be criminal liabilities as well as financial ones. However I don't know the law and your insurers will likely be aware of that risk as well.
As far as I know you can‘t insure against criminal penalties.
 

zwk500

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As far as I know you can‘t insure against criminal penalties.
As I said, I don't know the law in enough detail. I am trying to make the OP aware of what might happen so that they can make the most informed decision possible.
 

Legolash2o

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Can't answer your question, sorry, but a counter-question: as NR would be responsible for permitting the working anyway, would not a disclaimer be sufficient? Or does that no longer work?

Not sure if a disclaimer is sufficient, that's one thing I have to find out. It's not just NR though, it could be an operator. I give access to anyone within the rail industry that asks, which aids in getting feedback. I can't really control what they do with the maps, tools and such.

2 issues here: Number 1: the first question NR will ask (and indeed, have asked because I was in the meeting) is 'Will this be 100% accurate for a safety critical purpose?' If it isn't 100% yes, they won't buy into it. If errors are discovered in the data input they won't touch the tool with a bargepole. This issue also needs to consider the date validity as well - but that will very much depend on what you agree to deliver.

Second issue: Depending on exactly what you agreed to deliver and to what standard, if somebody gets hurt there may be criminal liabilities as well as financial ones. However I don't know the law and your insurers will likely be aware of that risk as well.


Depends what is agreed with NR to deliver.

Hey again, hope you're well! I remember the question being asked by various people in most meetings :D . Since those meetings and going back to solo work, I've developed a lot of processes and tools that help maintain the data. By changing a few lines of code, it can 100% map the data exactly to how NESA displays the data including the restrictions (even if there's mistakes within NESA). I typically run the tool at least once a month.

I've not agreed to anything or even in talks. Currently, I'm more concerned if the people who currently have access decide to rely on it for their everyday work. I may also supply some of the digitised data to either the public or developers so I may need to cover myself for that as well.

Policy Bee supply my insurance, which I've used for rail contracts. Have a chat with them.
Thanks!

As I said, I don't know the law in enough detail. I am trying to make the OP aware of what might happen so that they can make the most informed decision possible.
It's good to know, thank you.
 

AndrewP

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5 Sep 2011
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364
Hiscox provide mine for management consulting (I also need employers liability insurancte for working in the public sector) and its not very expensive
 

mr_moo

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7 Sep 2009
Messages
494
Location
Cambridgeshire
I'm a contract Track engineer via my own Ltd company. I get PI/PL insurance via Kingsbridge. Pretty reasonable and covers me for what I need.

I'd be interested in what data you're presenting. If you're getting it from an NR source then the liability rests with them as long as you were clear about what data you're presenting. If you were selling your services as a creator of information that gives route clearances for example, your insurance is likely to be several grand. If you're selling consultancy services that includes extracts of information from other sources with correct credits then you only need basic cover against you making mistakes etc.

Essentially, make sure you've got suitable caveats about data sources and their inherent accuracy, and the last updated date of the data (the source, not just the last time you did your document). Some sources like the Sectional Appendix (if you've got access to the live version) are very up to date (but still imperfect - it's Gauging Authorities and Route Clearances that you need, but you'd need to talkk to NR gauging engineers to get at those). Some sources such as 5-mile diagrams can be woefully out of date and wrong.
 

Legolash2o

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2018
Messages
596
Hiscox provide mine for management consulting (I also need employers liability insurancte for working in the public sector) and its not very expensive
Thank you, I'll make note.

I'm a contract Track engineer via my own Ltd company. I get PI/PL insurance via Kingsbridge. Pretty reasonable and covers me for what I need.

I'd be interested in what data you're presenting. If you're getting it from an NR source then the liability rests with them as long as you were clear about what data you're presenting. If you were selling your services as a creator of information that gives route clearances for example, your insurance is likely to be several grand. If you're selling consultancy services that includes extracts of information from other sources with correct credits then you only need basic cover against you making mistakes etc.

Essentially, make sure you've got suitable caveats about data sources and their inherent accuracy, and the last updated date of the data (the source, not just the last time you did your document). Some sources like the Sectional Appendix (if you've got access to the live version) are very up to date (but still imperfect - it's Gauging Authorities and Route Clearances that you need, but you'd need to talkk to NR gauging engineers to get at those). Some sources such as 5-mile diagrams can be woefully out of date and wrong.
I'm currently representing their data on my maps, so not a creator of information.

The risky parts is that I decided to manually map restriction locations i.e. "Class 180 prohibited on platform 6". I could accidently either miss the restriction entirely or map it on another platform entirely, my algorithms would then allow routing to platform 6 when it shouldn't be. I will be mentioning on each page the data sources and have dedicated pages about how the data is maintained, how often, etc.

Thanks also for mentioning Kingsbridge, I'll make a note of that too.
 

mr_moo

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Ok, that makes sense. In that case the (live) sectional appendix is probably your best source of info but I'd also make contact with the Network Rail gauging team and ask for copies of the "Certificate of Gauging Authority" for each class of rolling stock. This would give a bit more detail including temp stuff and would give you a better understanding of what some of the restrictions are for, plus which are long term or might dissapear soon and/or what's potentially changing in the future.

If you're doing that kind of a product you absolutely need to foster a good relationship with Senior Gauging Engineers in Network Rail. I'd also advise re stronger insurance than the basic stuff - if you are selling a system rather than your personal services it's probably a bigger deal, but as others have said you'd need to show something robust before anyone will use it.

I'm not at all saying don't do it - innovation and development is fab, just be aware of how risk averse train operations planning can be and try to get a good understanding of the market you are entering, ideally before spending a lot of time and/or money on setting up a system that then may go nowhere (but hopefully wont).

What's your target market? TOCs? NR ops (day to day)? NR timetable planners? TOC timetable planners? NR Capital Delivery? All of those? It sounds interesting and potentially useful.
 

zwk500

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I'm not at all saying don't do it - innovation and development is fab, just be aware of how risk averse train operations planning can be and try to get a good understanding of the market you are entering, ideally before spending a lot of time and/or money on setting up a system that then may go nowhere (but hopefully wont).

What's your target market? TOCs? NR ops (day to day)? NR timetable planners? TOC timetable planners? NR Capital Delivery? All of those? It sounds interesting and potentially useful.
On this point, it's worth talking to TOCs and NR about what the systems they currently use can theoretically deliver, in time.
 

Legolash2o

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2018
Messages
596
Apologies for the delay.
Ok, that makes sense. In that case the (live) sectional appendix is probably your best source of info but I'd also make contact with the Network Rail gauging team and ask for copies of the "Certificate of Gauging Authority" for each class of rolling stock. This would give a bit more detail including temp stuff and would give you a better understanding of what some of the restrictions are for, plus which are long term or might dissapear soon and/or what's potentially changing in the future.

If you're doing that kind of a product you absolutely need to foster a good relationship with Senior Gauging Engineers in Network Rail. I'd also advise re stronger insurance than the basic stuff - if you are selling a system rather than your personal services it's probably a bigger deal, but as others have said you'd need to show something robust before anyone will use it.

I'm not at all saying don't do it - innovation and development is fab, just be aware of how risk averse train operations planning can be and try to get a good understanding of the market you are entering, ideally before spending a lot of time and/or money on setting up a system that then may go nowhere (but hopefully wont).

What's your target market? TOCs? NR ops (day to day)? NR timetable planners? TOC timetable planners? NR Capital Delivery? All of those? It sounds interesting and potentially useful.

I have thought about temporary gauging certificates and other items such as SoCs and RT3973 forms but it'll be hard to maintain the data without replacing the source data and processes. I do separately map permanent gauge certificates in a way that separates what's published within NESA and what's on a gauge cert.

I'm not planning on doing any commercial products with my maps and data. Currently, I share publicly my gradient and electrification maps as well as a tool for shows gradient/electrification breakdown for a specified route. A lot of people on this forum put in a lot of effort to track electrification progress and creating the maps is my way of contributing.

One of my planned projects is to create an API that can allow developers to retrieve the gradient and electrification breakdown data. In the future this could include line speeds and curvatures along the specific route (provided by origin, via and destination tiplocs/stanox). This data can be used for any project (i.e. emissions research) but I have specified to not use it in safety critical applications because it's not had any sort of official approval by NR, and I can't guarantee the gradient data for example to be 100% accurate.

I'm sure the gradient data is about 98-99% accurate but with me just saying 'I'm sure', isn't going to cut it - as mentioned above. So I have the data, I want to share the data (for free) but I also want to make sure I'm covered just in case someone does use it in a safety-critical environment or it does cause some financial damage. I don't think "Use at your own risk" would suffice but it is the only source of truly digitised version of a combined data source out there. I do have plans to have a second pass at the gradient data to fix a few issues I'm aware of and I'm human, so there may be others that I will catch.

In regards to the rest of the data such as Loading gauge, route availability, locomotive/stock clearances, max weights, max lengths, etc. That's primarily used for my research but I do share access to the maps for those in rail who are interested. There's a couple of people in NR, DfT, TfN, RFG and a couple of operators that have access to the maps but they are aware of the conditions i.e checking NESA if they plan on doing anything. You can do a lot of commercial applications with the data such as improved path planning and validation, analytics, strategic planning and other fun stuff.

I've been in many meetings with Network Rail and some operators since I started in 2016. Data maintenance was bought up a lot (understandably) as rail is safety critical environment and it's always good to follow data standards i.e. ISO 8000. Since those meetings, I've taken note and re-evaluated all my current processes and tools to ensure data quality are fit for purpose for both the short and long term. I recently do have the means to make the data match NESA 100% automatically which means that if NESA has a mistake, then mine would show it too. Although there is an instance where a route is W6A and W9 cleared but not W7 or W8. I do fix those as they are static gauges (after some consultation).

Either way, even though I'm sharing the data and can have every caution sign on the planet. I still want to protect myself.

On this point, it's worth talking to TOCs and NR about what the systems they currently use can theoretically deliver, in time.
For my current work, I've been doing that since I started. For the long-term plans, I've been expanding on those efforts quite a bit but mostly systems within NR.
 
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DelayRepay

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As far as I know you can‘t insure against criminal penalties.

True, but you may be able to insure against the costs of defending a criminal prosecution. If you are working through a limited company, you might need to insure against personal liability too. Depending on the level of risk, it would be worth using the services of an insurance broker to ensure the correct type of cover is selected.
 
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