Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[quantinghome]

Not unless the wires have been put up since this morning it isn’t…

Sigh. Electrification already underway then. Happy?

 

[A0wen]

Likewise, the MML is already electrified to Market Harborough. Peterborough - Leeds would be a similar length scheme as Market Harborough to Sheffield plus the Nottingham branch.

Yes, it's hard to see where significant additional capacity on the ECML can be won. This isn't a plan, it's airy-fairy aspiration.

The capacity on the ECML isn't about running more trains though - it's about running faster trains. There's a big difference - so it's about separating faster and slower services, it's about improving junctions and stations so the approach and departure through them is quicker, no doubt it will be about eliminating level crossings and things like that as well.

 

[Roast Veg]

Grant has finished presenting the IRP to the commons and facing questions. I do have to respect him for how that was delivered at the dispatch box.

 

[Jim the Jim]

Living in the Birmingham region the northwest always seemed pretty inaccessible by rail, and I was hoping HS2 would change that. But it seems that is not a priority ... At least the woeful links between east and west midlands still look to be improved (for now).

 

[NotATrainspott]

New lines will be Water Orton-East Midlands Parkway (30m), Crewe-Manchester (30m).
Looks like there is no new line into Leeds/York (or Liverpool).
Warrington-Marsden (minus HS2 Rostherne-Piccadilly) is about 25 miles.
Rostherne-Golborne appears to be under review.
With the ECML being upgraded, it may be that the Edinburgh service will stay on the ECML and not migrate to the WCML.
No obvious changes in Birmingham to put XC services on the new line.

There's not much point sending fast Edinburgh trains via the ECML. Glasgow Central can only take a 200m classic-compatible unit but everything south of there can probably manage 400m. Getting rid of the Edinburgh fasts would allow the ECML to be recast around Newcastle as its furthest-flung primary destination (even if some trains do continue north).

 

[jhy44]

Well, a blummin’ excellent result!!!!

MML electrified through to Sheffield and HS2 East trains running directly into Nottingham and Derby (instead of the stupid Toton idea) with London less than an hour….

As a Nottingham / Derby local the news couldn’t be better.

Completely agree. Other posters have spoken about the change from Toton to East Midlands Parkway (EMP) as being some sort of awful downgrade - anyone who actually lives in the Midlands knows that it's a huge upgrade. Nottingham City Centre to Birmingham City Centre in 26 minutes is fantastic; and the connection the two largest Midlands cities have been crying out for. RIP Toton Parkway, you will not be missed. Hopefully this will also spur on better connections between EMP and East Midlands Airport too.

It is however pretty poor that the originally proposed Leeds-Clayton spur line isn't even going ahead. Whilst it wasn't a popular proposal, it would still have made a much-welcomed improvement to the dismal Leeds-Sheffield journey time. There will be some very unhappy South & West Yorkshire conservative backbenchers at the moment, hopefully they can cause enough raucous to make sure that these Leeds Tram proposals end up being delivered as opposed to dropped as they were previously.

 

[Mikey C]

If you want to get to London and Birmingham, yes. If you're looking to travel North, no.

I'd imagine far more journeys are in that direction than to Sheffield or Leeds

And even with the previous plans, you'd still need to get to Toton to get HS2 northwards, losing much of the time saving

 

[quantinghome]

Grant has finished presenting the IRP to the commons and facing questions. I do have to respect him for how that was delivered at the dispatch box.

Oh yes, Tory self-confidence is quite a thing to behold. Pity about their competence though.

 

[achmelvic]

Is it? HS2, yes.

But it gets its NPR services via a mix of new lines and conventional upgrades.

I guess it due to what's being proposed is what should have already happened anyway (TP electrification and EMCL upgrades) not coming until the mid-2030's whilst the direct HS2 line is scrapped with a NPR line Manchester-Marsden opening in 20+ years in the mid-2040's & the promise of studies into a mass transit system and airy 'how to get HS2 to Leeds' put up instead.

 

[HSTEd]

There's not much point sending fast Edinburgh trains via the ECML. Glasgow Central can only take a 200m classic-compatible unit but everything south of there can probably manage 400m. Getting rid of the Edinburgh fasts would allow the ECML to be recast around Newcastle as its furthest-flung primary destination (even if some trains do continue north).

You forget the most important point.

It provides an excuse to cancel Golborne, as the Treasury demands

You think they actually care what happens after the next election?

 

[A0wen]

Shapps is still talking about improved times to Scotland, so I guess it's still going ahead.

Well HS2 as it stands will improve journey times to Scotland on the West Coast to Glasgow by being much quicker to get to Crewe / Warrington.

What we *may* end up with is a situation where London - Edinburgh is quicker via Glasgow.... That said if the SNP would like to dip their hands in their pockets to fund some upgrades....... transport is, after all, a devolved matter. Maybe they could upgrade the Borders railway to a 140 mph mainline from Edinburgh to Carlisle.....

 

[Dan G]

I've skimmed the report and quite apart from the major cutting back, there is awful lot of 'could' for something that describes itself as a 'plan'. The timescales are seriously unimpressive as well. Despite trumpeting a better service to Nottingham it looks like that won't be delivered for another 20 years!

View attachment 105797

Wow. I was just thinking that the executive summary has no mention of timescales... That chart is shocking.

 

[HSTEd]

What we *may* end up with is a situation where London - Edinburgh is quicker via Glasgow.... That said if the SNP would like to dip their hands in their pockets to fund some upgrades....... transport is, after all, a devolved matter. Maybe they could upgrade the Borders railway to a 140 mph mainline from Edinburgh to Carlisle.....

I think hoping for any cooperation from the SNP on improving travel times between England and Scotland is naive in the extreme.........

Also borders railway as 140mph main line! Not seen that one in a while!

 

[quantinghome]

I'd imagine far more journeys are in that direction than to Sheffield or Leeds

Yes, at present because the connections going north are so awful. Is this about levelling up or not?

And even with the previous plans, you'd still need to get to Toton to get HS2 northwards, losing much of the time saving

Even with changing at Toton, Leeds-Nottingham would have been 50 minutes with HS2, currently 2 hours.

 

[A0wen]

Living in the Birmingham region the northwest always seemed pretty inaccessible by rail, and I was hoping HS2 would change that. But it seems that is not a priority ... At least the woeful links between east and west midlands still look to be improved (for now).

A curious statement ?

Birmingham has direct services to Manchester and up the WCML.

Birmingham has direct services to Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

Not sure how you can assert such links are "woeful" ?

 

[Roast Veg]

RIP Toton Parkway, you will not be missed.

Toton is still getting a station for local and regional services.

It is however pretty poor that the originally proposed Leeds-Clayton spur line isn't even going ahead. Whilst it wasn't a popular proposal, it would still have made a much-welcomed improvement to the dismal Leeds-Sheffield journey time. There will be some very unhappy South & West Yorkshire conservative backbenchers at the moment, hopefully they can cause enough raucous to make sure that these Leeds Tram proposals end up being delivered as opposed to dropped as they were previously.

Leeds would have needed a new station, and since there's no new line to Bradford it would have been pointing the wrong way. The whole package needs revisiting now, and we shouldn't expect anything for a long time. A big loss to WY.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A curious statement ?

Birmingham has direct services to Manchester and up the WCML.

Birmingham has direct services to Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

Not sure how you can assert such links are "woeful" ?

XC is woeful, but that is fairly easy to fix.

 

[Roast Veg]

Surely Edinburgh would still be served via HS2, as the eastern branch was never intended to do that?

That depends on Golborne.

 

[snowball]

Living in the Birmingham region the northwest always seemed pretty inaccessible by rail, and I was hoping HS2 would change that. But it seems that is not a priority

Where do you get that idea given that HS2 to Crewe already has royal assent?

 

[wellhouse]

Having speed-read the NPR section of the document, it doesn't quite correspond with the speech in Parliament.

I understand The Minister referred to a new line between Warrington and Marsden, while the docement states 'between Warrington and East of Stalybridge tunnels.' OK, Marsden is east of Stalybridge tunnels, but quite a way!

There is also reference to provision of a third track between Huddersfield and Marsden to permit an hourly freight path.

 

[Ianno87]

I understand The Minister referred to a new line between Warrington and Marsden, while the docement states 'between Warrington and East of Stalybridge tunnels.' OK, Marsden is east of Stalybridge tunnels, but quite a way!

The actual document refers to East of Standedge Tunnels.

 

[achmelvic]

Leeds would have needed a new station, and since there's no new line to Bradford it would have been pointing the wrong way. The whole package needs revisiting now, and we shouldn't expect anything for a long time. A big loss to WY.

My hope that been that if Clayton-Leeds has actually been built with a new spur to the Donny line the proposed HS2 station could have been used for ECML services, albeit maybe with shorter platforms which would free up capacity in the existing station for the improved NPR and local services.

As it looks now there'll be nothing done at Leeds station and pretty much it'll stay as it is for the next 20-30 years.

 

[Sbahn4]

so, who thinks that these plans have been agreed by ministers who have not travelled the routes involved, regularly?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That depends on Golborne.

How? No reason you can't run a 400m splitter via Warrington instead of a 200m Glasgow. It is a classic line capacity gainer, not an essential.

It is inconceivable that WCML Glasgows would be removed.

 

[edwin_m]

That depends on Golborne.

Not read the report yet, but one possible solution is to build the south to west link at Rostherne so Liverpool trains can stay on HS2 and come off the congested Crewe-Weaver section. This might free enough capacity for Scotland trains to stay on the existing route north of Crewe, especially if they sort out the mess between Warrington and Wigan to create proper fast and slow lines in sections long enough for freights to be overtaken.

 

[Ianno87]

The capacity on the ECML isn't about running more trains though - it's about running faster trains. There's a big difference - so it's about separating faster and slower services, it's about improving junctions and stations so the approach and departure through them is quicker, no doubt it will be about eliminating level crossings and things like that as well.

As per previous discussions; even with solving Welwyn ECML capacity uplift potential is highly limited; so the core benefit of upgrades would be journey time through segregating fast/slow services more.

 

[achmelvic]

So how long until the NPR line from Manchester to Marsden/East of Standedge gets dropped as well, it's not due to start construction until the late 2030's so 15+ years for future governments to rain back on that plan as well and leave us with just an electrified TP line with a few upgrades between Leeds and Hudd.

 

[RH Liner]

Agreed, this is positive for the East Midlands.

Is Mansfield in the East Midlands?

 

[Ianno87]

so, who thinks that these plans have been agreed by ministers who have not travelled the routes involved, regularly?

I think they've been agreed by ministers who have to deal with the reality of funding and justifying all of this, against measurable benefits.

 

[Roast Veg]

My hope that been that if Clayton-Leeds has actually been built with a new spur to the Donny line the proposed HS2 station could have been used for ECML services, albeit maybe with shorter platforms which would free up capacity in the existing station for the improved NPR and local services.

As it looks now there'll be nothing done at Leeds station and pretty much it'll stay as it is for the next 20-30 years.

I also hoped for this, but alas. I'm concerned now that we also won't see extra Leeds to London services using Hambleton Junction with the increased traffic east of Leeds station. Fingers crossed the ECML upgrade allows for more services via Wakefield instead.

How? No reason you can't run a 400m splitter via Warrington instead of a 200m Glasgow. It is a classic line capacity gainer, not an essential.

Splitting at somewhere like Carlisle? Possible.

Not read the report yet, but one possible solution is to build the south to west link at Rostherne so Liverpool trains can stay on HS2 and come off the congested Crewe-Weaver section. This might free enough capacity for Scotland trains to stay on the existing route north of Crewe, especially if they sort out the mess between Warrington and Wigan to create proper fast and slow lines in sections long enough for freights to be overtaken.

Also possible. We'll find out in the Union Connectivity Review.