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Pullman coaches

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theblackwatch

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They are the Manchester Pullmans, based on Mk. 2s and used (unsprisingly) between Manchester and London until the mid 80s when Mk. 3 stock was introduced and the proper Pullmans dumbed down. The ones which survive are now used on charter trains.
 

Daimler

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Were there ever any Mk3 Pullmans?

And am I right in thinking that the blue/grey Pullan livery was a kind of reverse of the standard?
 

Drsatan

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Were there ever any Mk3 Pullmans?

And am I right in thinking that the blue/grey Pullan livery was a kind of reverse of the standard?

To the best of my knowledge no Mk3 pullman cars were made, although in 1985 22 Mk3 coaches were converted into pullman coaches. These coaches had 48 seats (as opposed to the 76 in a standard class Mk3 TSO) and were painted in a modified Intercity Swallow livery. All Mk3s used on Pullman services had individual names, had the pullman coat of arms painted on the bodyshell, and were branded 'Intercity Pullman'. Pullman services ran to Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street until 1991.

In Rail Blue days, pullman stock was painted in reverse blue/grey: that is, the centre band around the windows was painted blue while the rest of the coach bodyshell was painted grey. The original Mk1 Pullmans were painted in this livery, along with the Mk2 Pullmans, the Brighton Belle EMUs, and the Blue Pullman DEMUs (although reverse blue/grey looked awful on the latter two).

Hope this helps
 

Daimler

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To the best of my knowledge no Mk3 pullman cars were made, although in 1985 22 Mk3 coaches were converted into pullman coaches. These coaches had 48 seats (as opposed to the 76 in a standard class Mk3 TSO) and were painted in a modified Intercity Swallow livery. All Mk3s used on Pullman services had individual names, had the pullman coat of arms painted on the bodyshell, and were branded 'Intercity Pullman'. Pullman services ran to Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street until 1991.

In Rail Blue days, pullman stock was painted in reverse blue/grey: that is, the centre band around the windows was painted blue while the rest of the coach bodyshell was painted grey. The original Mk1 Pullmans were painted in this livery, along with the Mk2 Pullmans, the Brighton Belle EMUs, and the Blue Pullman DEMUs (although reverse blue/grey looked awful on the latter two).

Hope this helps

Ah, thanks!

I suppose the prototype HST and APT-E were painted in the 'Pullman' livery then.
 

Helvellyn

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They are the Manchester Pullmans, based on Mk. 2s and used (unsprisingly) between Manchester and London until the mid 80s when Mk. 3 stock was introduced and the proper Pullmans dumbed down. The ones which survive are now used on charter trains.
To expand on what theblackwatch put, as part of the West Coast electrification it was decided to introduce electric hauled Pullman services. There had never been Pullmans on the West Coast under BR, though there was a 'Midland Pullman' Manchester Central to St Pancras service using the Blue Pullman over the Midland route, and a 'Birmingham Pullman' Birmingham Snow Hill to Paddington service over GW metals. Both operated in the early 1960s.

29 Mk 2 Pullman vehicles were built - 8 Pullman Kitchen cars (500-507), 14 Pullman Parlour cars (540-553) and 7 Pullman Brake cars (580-586). The Manchester Pullman used all Pullman vehicles, whilst the Liverpool Pullman also contained Mk 2 TSOs (in corporate Blue/Grey).

In the late 1970s 7 vehicles were withdrawn when the Liverpool Pullman was withdrawn. This was when air conditioned stock was being introduced as standard on many West Coast services. The Mk 2 Pullmans were vacuum braked, and rather than convert all to air braking these vehicles were withdrawn. In 1983 BR decided to facelift the remaining vehicles and at the same time they gained the new 'Executive' colours as part of a relaunch of the Pullman brand. They also gained their names at this time, these being: -

  • 500 Sir Richard Arkwright
  • 501 Sir Charles Halle
  • 502 Sir Joseph Whitworth
  • 503 John Owens
  • 504 Robert Owen
  • 506 Francis Egerton
  • 540 James Frazer
  • 543 Sir William Fairburn
  • 544 Emmeline Pankhurst
  • 545 John Dalton
  • 546 Elizabeth Gaskell
  • 548 Francis Burnett
  • 549 James Joule
  • 550 Ernest Rutherford
  • 551 L S Lowry
  • 552 Ford Madox Brown
  • 553 Sir John Barbirolli
  • 581 Sir Humphrey Chetham
  • 582 Daniel Adamson
  • 583 Peter Mark Roget
  • 584 Charles Scott
  • 586 John Rylands
When the Mk 2 Pullmans were built, over half had asbestos insulation fitted. After the vehicles were stood down with the introduction of the Mk 3B vehicles, the 10 remaining non-asbestos fitted vehicles were taken on by the InterCity charter unit. They gained new names, after Lakes in the Lake District and became known as the Lakeland Pullman set: -

  • 504 Ullswater
  • 506 Windermere
  • 546 Coniston Water
  • 548 Grasmere
  • 549 Bassenthwaite
  • 550 Rydal Water
  • 551 Buttermere
  • 552 Ennerdale Water
  • 553 Crummock Water
  • 586 Derwent Water
After withdrawal by InterCity they became privately owned, and have changed hands several times though all ten vehicles still survice today.

To the best of my knowledge no Mk3 pullman cars were made, although in 1985 22 Mk3 coaches were converted into pullman coaches. These coaches had 48 seats (as opposed to the 76 in a standard class Mk3 TSO) and were painted in a modified Intercity Swallow livery. All Mk3s used on Pullman services had individual names, had the pullman coat of arms painted on the bodyshell, and were branded 'Intercity Pullman'. Pullman services ran to Manchester Piccadilly and Liverpool Lime Street until 1991.
You've got yourself slightly mixed up here. The standard Mark 3 bodyshell was designed to seat 48 First or 72 Standard class passengers, and we've seen many conversions over the years from one to the other.

In 1985 38 Mk 3B FOs were built. These had improved air conditioning compared to the Mk 3 and Mk 3A vehicles, revised style lighting units and luggae racks, built in tail lights on the vehicle ends, and used IC80 seating (compared to the IC70 seating used in the Mk3 and Mk 3A vehicles).

22 of these Mk 3B FOs were branded InterCity Pullman, and 19 were named. You are right that they were used on the Manchester Pullman, the re-introduced Liverpool Pullman and the new Lancashire Pullman. As you also say, the pullman crest was carried on the vehicles, while the names were painted in the centre of the vehicle on the red stripe (like with the pictures of Mk 2 Pullmans). Many of the Manchester Pullman names were reused, whilst other names relevant to the North West and Liverpool were used too. Vehicle names were: -

  • 11073 William Ewart Gladstone
  • 11074 Thomas Brassey
  • 11076 John Lennon
  • 11077 Sir Richard Arkwright (Also carried by Class 87, 87026)
  • 11078 John Owens
  • 11079 Francis Egerton
  • 11080 Emmeline Pankhurst (Never seems to have been carried in service)
  • 11081 Elizabeth Gaskell
  • 11082 James Joule
  • 11083 Kitty Wilkinson
  • 11084 William Roscoe
  • 11085 Sir John Barbirolli
  • 11086 Henry Doulton
  • 11087 Sir William Fairburn
  • 11088 Sir John Brunner
  • 11089 George Stubbs
  • 11091 Sir Stanley Matthews
  • 11092 Ernest Rutherford
  • 11093 L. S. Lowry (Also carried by Class 86, 86239)
  • 11094 Arnold Bennett
11075 and 11090 were never named - Anyone out there know if there were names palnned for these two coaches but never applied (like with 11080)?

17 of the Mk 3B FOs (including 12 of the Pullman branded vehicles) had one luggage stack replaced by a telephone kiosk containing a payphone.

The introduction of the Mk 3B FOs saw a number of Mk 3A FOs removed from service for conversion to RFMs. This saw "Cusine 2000" using modular catering (everything brought onto the train in trolleys) introduced on the West Coast and saw all the Mk 1 catering vehicles in use on the route withdarwn from regular use. 12 spare Mk 3 Kitchen cars and the 28 Mk 3A RFBs were also rebuilt, giving a fleet of 58 Mk 3A RFMs for use with the Mk 2F/3A/3B sets on West Coast services.

Mark 3B Pullmans shortly after introduction, with a Mk 1 Kitchen Car and Mk 3A RFB, plus Mk 3A TSOs - BR mid-1980s mix of liveries!

In 1986 three Mk 3B BFOs were also built, seating 36 First Class passengers and conatining a Guard's and luggage compartment. These were for use on Manchester Pullman sets, but were never named, nor carried InterCity Pullman branding. Once the Mk 3B DVTs sets were introduced they were still used in the Manchester Pullman sets, though the main luggage accommodation was now in the DVT. These three vehicles are now used by FGW on the Night Riveria where they provide the First Class seating and Guard's accommadation.

In Rail Blue days, pullman stock was painted in reverse blue/grey: that is, the centre band around the windows was painted blue while the rest of the coach bodyshell was painted grey. The original Mk1 Pullmans were painted in this livery, along with the Mk2 Pullmans, the Brighton Belle EMUs, and the Blue Pullman DEMUs (although reverse blue/grey looked awful on the latter two).
When the Mk 2 Pullmans were introduced they used the original Pullman type face, though this was later changed to the BR corporate typeface. All the other Pullman vehicles originally carried Pullman Umber and Cream, though were repainted by BR in the reversed corporate colours after BR Blue came in. The only other detail was that there was no thin white band between the grey and blue, unlike the normal blue/grey livery.
 
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Talking of Pullmans, I have never seen a close up of the Met Cam Blue Pullman Schlieran bogies. Anybody?
 
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