Putting back Carnforth on the WCML

[Gathursty]

I was on Google and noticed what could be a disused spur from the Bentham Line to the Northbound WCML immediately after the tight right bend leaving Carnforth station.

It's impossible to reinstate the WCML platforms without causing havoc but could it be possible to build this spur so stoppers could be held off the mainline?

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was on Google and noticed what could be a disused spur from the Bentham Line to the Northbound WCML immediately after the tight right bend leaving Carnforth station.

It's impossible to reinstate the WCML platforms without causing havoc but could it be possible to build this spur so stoppers could be held off the mainline?

Could you explain how building a spur with a new main line connection at the north end followed by everlasting double conflicting movements by southbound services would somehow be less 'havocacious' than reinstating the platforms in their original positions?

 

[Gathursty]

Could you explain how building a spur with a new main line connection at the north end followed by everlasting double conflicting movements by southbound services would somehow be less 'havocacious' than reinstating the platforms in their original positions?

In the same way Frome station is not on the mainline is my idea. I thought that There is not enough slack for a stopper to work on the original platforms so perhaps making Carnforth like Frome might be a solution.

 

[Iskra]

I’m sure it’s possible, but I can’t imagine there’s all that much demand for Northwards travel as it’s pretty empty country until the Scottish Central belt and Carnforth is a small place. It’s only 10mins South to Lancaster. I say that as a former resident. It would probably cost a fortune too and it could cause pathing issues.

 

[randyrippley]

I was on Google and noticed what could be a disused spur from the Bentham Line to the Northbound WCML immediately after the tight right bend leaving Carnforth station.

It's impossible to reinstate the WCML platforms without causing havoc but could it be possible to build this spur so stoppers could be held off the mainline?

that is a farm track with a load of rubble dumped on it because that area is soft bogland. There was never a spur there - the fact the WCML is on an embankment there would make any new link challenging, especially given the interest of the environment agency in those fields due to both the annual floods and the birdlife interest.
Too hard, too difficult, too political, could never happen

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m sure it’s possible, but I can’t imagine there’s all that much demand for Northwards travel as it’s pretty empty country until the Scottish Central belt and Carnforth is a small place. It’s only 10mins South to Lancaster. I say that as a former resident. It would probably cost a fortune too and it could cause pathing issues.

Carnforth's primary travel demand would be to Lancaster (or Barrow if they work in the shipyards), and then to Preston, Manchester, Birmingham or London. Travel via Lancaster provides all of those (direct to Preston and Manchester most hours), and it's not big enough to justify its own London service. So there's very little point.

 

[randyrippley]

Carnforth could justify a direct London service if you closed the existing station and built a new park-and-ride on the site of "The Travellers Choice" bus park. Lot of work though widening the embankment, you'd also need new platforms on the Bentham line, while the Barrow line would be a problem. Drainage would still be a problem though.
But three minutes from J35 it could be a major railhead for the south lakes.
Or you could just reinstate the existing WCML platforms, demolish Steamtown and use that as a park and ride carpark. Would keep the locals happy and there would be a few quid recovered in scrap metal. And you wouldn't have to worry about the floods and birds

 

[Bletchleyite]

But three minutes from J35 it could be a major railhead for the south lakes.

What's the point? You can use Oxenholme or Lancaster as appropriate to your location, or even, you know, take the train from your origin!

 

[randyrippley]

Lancaster is a pain to get to and no use as a park-and-ride railhead. Oxenholme really needs a bigger car park, and road access is poor - especially to the motorway along Hayloft Lane.
As for "train from your origin"..........like Kirkby Lonsdale, Milnthorpe, Sedbergh, Dent (don't make me laugh), Tebay, Ingleton or any number of similar isolated towns and villages in South Cumbria and the western Dales???

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lancaster is a pain to get to and no use as a park-and-ride railhead

Is it? The A6 goes within about 100 metres of the station, and it has a reasonably sized car park. It can be a bit busy at peak times, but it is not a difficult place to drive to or through as a whole.

Oxenholme really needs a bigger car park, and road access is poor - especially to the motorway along Hayloft Lane.
As for "train from your origin"..........like Kirkby Lonsdale, Milnthorpe, Sedbergh, Dent (don't make me laugh), Tebay, Ingleton or any number of similar isolated towns and villages in South Cumbria and the western Dales???

Penrith is a better railhead for most of those places you listed there (north Lakes and western Dales) and has a large multi storey car park.

If you're already on the M6 south, you can add Preston as an option, huge car park there.

There is not going to be a huge demand from tiny villages in the south Lakes. There might be tourist demand to them, but a Parkway station doesn't provide for that in any way whatsoever, unless you're planning a major electric car hire scheme.

 

[randyrippley]

Is it? The A6 goes within about 100 metres of the station, and it has a reasonably sized car park. It can be a bit busy at peak times, but it is not a difficult place to drive to or through as a whole.



Penrith is a better railhead for most of those places you listed there (north Lakes and western Dales) and has a large multi storey car park.

If you're already on the M6 south, you can add Preston as an option, huge car park there.

There is not going to be a huge demand from tiny villages in the south Lakes. There might be tourist demand to them, but a Parkway station doesn't provide for that in any way whatsoever, unless you're planning a major electric car hire scheme.

I disagree - Carnforth is easier access for all those towns, and far closer than Penrith - and its in the right direction, not going north.
Lancaster means you need to add at least 30 minutes to get round the one-way system, usually longer.
Preston means another 30 minutes down the motorway from Lancaster, plus another 30 getting to the station.
Carnforth could attract traffic from a large rural area

 

[Dr Hoo]

I disagree - Carnforth is easier access for all those towns, and far closer than Penrith - and its in the right direction, not going north.
Lancaster means you need to add at least 30 minutes to get round the one-way system, usually longer.
Preston means another 30 minutes down the motorway from Lancaster, plus another 30 getting to the station.
Carnforth could attract traffic from a large rural area

Google Maps suggests that Sedburgh-Carnforth station would take 30 minutes to drive just now and Sedburgh-Lancaster station would take 40 minutes. The train typically takes about 9 minutes from departing Carnforth to departing Lancaster anyway.

How much of the time do you really have to spend 30 minutes of gridlock in Lancaster, let alone "usually longer"?

I presume that in your model nearly all WCML trains would call at Carnforth, presumably as well as at Lancaster?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lancaster isn't usually gridlocked. It gets that way in rush hour but not really at other times. And a lap of the one way system when it's flowing takes about 5 minutes, it's a really small city.

 

[randyrippley]

Google Maps suggests that Sedburgh-Carnforth station would take 30 minutes to drive just now and Sedburgh-Lancaster station would take 40 minutes. The train typically takes about 9 minutes from departing Carnforth to departing Lancaster anyway.

How much of the time do you really have to spend 30 minutes of gridlock in Lancaster, let alone "usually longer"?

I presume that in your model nearly all WCML trains would call at Carnforth, presumably as well as at Lancaster?

Google maps is being rather optimistic, though given we're in a festivity-free holiday period then things are much quieter.
As a rule, Lancaster traffic is fairly bad, though the Bay Gateway did help. But the real problem is the university traffic, which pretty much locks the town centre for much of the day - except during Uni holidays

Google is actually showing at present 17 minutes J35 - Lancaster station, much quicker than normal

As to stopping at both stations, not sure about that

 

[Peter0124]

I wish they put Newton (Lanark) back on the WCML to allow Lanark/Edinburgh trains to stop

 

[Gathursty]

As above, Lancaster's one way system is so notorious they built the Bay Gateway to avoid it. (I know also for the freight traffic to Heysham/IOM)

Lancaster is still busy when you come off the Bay Gateway. For a small city, there are certainly many, many vehicles.

 

[30907]

As above, Lancaster's one way system is so notorious they built the Bay Gateway to avoid it. (I know also for the freight traffic to Heysham/IOM)

The Bay Gateway avoids the Lune bridges and associated roads and junctions, not the city centre loop itself.

Back to Carnforth: I crayoned that curve years ago, so I could run Leeds- Windermere, but then I learnt about the 10mph speed limit and decided Lancaster was too important to avoid.
A better car park and a coordinated half hourly service into Lancaster/Preston might be achievable steps though.

 

[neilmc]

Carnforth is not a huge place and already has a rail connection to Lancaster and Preston and stations to Barrow. There is a good bus service through the middle of the Lake District to Kendal, Windermere and Keswick, one of the very few decent ones in Cumbria. It is not large enough to justify London-Scotland expresses stopping there with Lancaster so close. There are plenty of places on the WCML in Cumbria which could do with reopening notably Shap, also Tebay, Plumpton, etc some of which have neither adequate buses nor trains to anywhere at all.

 

[backontrack]

Penrith is a better railhead for most of those places you listed there (north Lakes and western Dales) and has a large multi storey car park.

Penrith is absolutely not a railhead for Sedbergh, Kirkby Lonsdale, Ingleton, Milnthorpe, or Dent - all of which lie in Westmorland or North Yorkshire, and for which Oxenholme is immeasurably more convenient (as well as having better services). Lancaster's nearer to these places than Penrith, too. I fear you need a map.

Penrith custom typically originates from Penrith itself, Keswick, Cockermouth, the Western Lakes, Ullswater, Appleby, Brough, Alston, Shap, and Kirkby Stephen.

The Bay Gateway avoids the Lune bridges and associated roads and junctions, not the city centre loop itself.

Back to Carnforth: I crayoned that curve years ago, so I could run Leeds- Windermere, but then I learnt about the 10mph speed limit and decided Lancaster was too important to avoid.
A better car park and a coordinated half hourly service into Lancaster/Preston might be achievable steps though.

I like the idea of a summertime 1tpd Leeds-Barrow, limited-stop, with a reversal at Carnforth.

 

[30907]

I like the idea of a summertime 1tpd Leeds-Barrow, limited-stop, with a reversal at Carnforth.

Lovely though Barrow is (OK, I know the real market would be Arnside/Grange/Ulverston), I'd prefer a Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere:
in terms of demand, Lancaster plus Central Lakes must have greater potential; it also fits neatly into the regular timetable slots at Lancaster/Oxenholme.
(In normal times, Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere mostly involves an hour of waiting en route; Leeds-Carnforth-Barrow is generally pretty good.)

 

[YorksLad12]

Lovely though Barrow is (OK, I know the real market would be Arnside/Grange/Ulverston), I'd prefer a Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere:
in terms of demand, Lancaster plus Central Lakes must have greater potential; it also fits neatly into the regular timetable slots at Lancaster/Oxenholme.
(In normal times, Leeds-Lancaster-Windermere mostly involves an hour of waiting en route; Leeds-Carnforth-Barrow is generally pretty good.)

I have a dim recollection from the mid-1990s of my time on Leeds Passenger Consultative Committee, where a Leeds - Windermere service had been proposed. This might have been pre-privatisation. I was always disappointed it never happened it would have been a good day out in the way Leeds-Settle and Leeds-Lancaster lines have been for me over the years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a dim recollection from the mid-1990s of my time on Leeds Passenger Consultative Committee, where a Leeds - Windermere service had been proposed. This might have been pre-privatisation. I was always disappointed it never happened it would have been a good day out in the way Leeds-Settle and Leeds-Lancaster lines have been for me over the years.

I fear that may fall into the "direct trains from everywhere to everywhere once an hour" issue. You can of course make that journey with one or two changes depending on time of day. Lancaster is a pleasant little city for a stop-off anyway.

 

[randyrippley]

I like the idea of a summertime 1tpd Leeds-Barrow, limited-stop, with a reversal at Carnforth.

Are either of the Carnforth platforms reversible from the north?

 

[30907]

I fear that may fall into the "direct trains from everywhere to everywhere once an hour" issue. You can of course make that journey with one or two changes depending on time of day. Lancaster is a pleasant little city for a stop-off anyway.

1. I was thinking more 2 or 3 a day, alternating with Leeds-Morecambe and Manchester-Windermere.
2. A decent connection would do the trick, and would simplify timetabling as you would use 195s exclusively at the Lakes end and simply rethink Preston-Windermere. I'll happily settle for that, it's the long wait en route I dislike.
3. Lancaster is nice, but if I'm going for a day in the Lakes I don't really want a stop-off

Are either of the Carnforth platforms reversible from the north?

The Up certainly is

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. I was thinking more 2 or 3 a day, alternating with Leeds-Morecambe and Manchester-Windermere.
2. A decent connection would do the trick, and would simplify timetabling as you would use 195s exclusively at the Lakes end and simply rethink Preston-Windermere. I'll happily settle for that, it's the long wait en route I dislike.
3. Lancaster is nice, but if I'm going for a day in the Lakes I don't really want a stop-off

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You've got a connection at Manchester Oxford Road which is only 5 minutes (OK, might not be reliable, but you could I guess drop back a TPE) 3 times a day onto the direct Manchester Airport services, if that's any help.

This just goes to show, really, that the Bentham line serves very few purposes that don't involve the intermediates or places immediately at either end.

 

[YorksLad12]

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You've got a connection at Manchester Oxford Road which is only 5 minutes (OK, might not be reliable, but you could I guess drop back a TPE) 3 times a day onto the direct Manchester Airport services, if that's any help.

This just goes to show, really, that the Bentham line serves very few purposes that don't involve the intermediates or places immediately at either end.

Sounds a bit like a trip I took from Leeds with a friend in 2019. Let a six-carriage TPE go (Hull-Pic) in order to cram onto a three carriage Airport service, which was delayed and then stuck on Castlefield. I stood the whole way. Fortunately, our next train to Lancaster was also delayed (unfortunately it was a 331 with that wonderful interior layout). Which will have come from Pic, of course... On the return we somehow timed it to catch the through Lancaster-Leeds train. A Pacer. We could see out of the windows... but it was October.

A subject for another thread, but given the suggestion to increase services to Skipton in the medium term (and no, I can't recall immediately in which strategy document I read that) how could we recast the tightly integrated Leeds North West services to include through semi-fast services to Settle/Lancaster/Windermere/wherever (Glasgow?), if useful/required? Or will via Manchester always be the better, faster option?

 

[30907]

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You've got a connection at Manchester Oxford Road which is only 5 minutes (OK, might not be reliable, but you could I guess drop back a TPE) 3 times a day onto the direct Manchester Airport services, if that's any help.

This just goes to show, really, that the Bentham line serves very few purposes that don't involve the intermediates or places immediately at either end.

Apart from providing the fastest journey times from Leeds and Bradford to Cumbria whenever the connections work, you mean, and considerably cheaper flexible fares....
As I live on the North side of Bradford I wasn't really thinking of starting at Leeds - I agree that from York (say) to Lancaster and beyond the obvious route is via Manchester or Burnley, and that way scores on frequency too.