Putting "revenue protection" over customer convenience

[RJ21]

I see only a couple of posts have also mentioned that there is more than one ticket type out there, something which does cause problems, a recent one from Taunton was a person with a print at home having arrived on a Cross Country service from Birmingham only to find the barriers unstaffed but closed. He eventually decided to vault the barriers, he had a valid ticket but of a type which could not be read by the barriers so he was effectively trapped until someone turned up, how long do you wait for?

I can see and fully understand the use of them on metro type systems, on LU they work well and with what 90something% contactless now it's more or less pain free but even so having seen the revenue protection on the Berlin S & U Bahns where there are no barriers, instead swoops by plain clothes staff with hefty fines I know that even metro systems do not need to be barriered.

It was picked up that one thing I find particularly unhelpful is the need to go through barriers to change platforms at some stations (ok my examples were not that brilliant but they're examples). The one advantage of the line being installed at Piccadilly at the moment is all of the platforms will be behind them. I am just hoping that they will extend across the full width of the station as at the moment the preparitory work has only covered the centre half of the station. One of the strangest I have come across has to be Shrewsbury, arriving onto the main island and finding the Pwlhelli service is starting from 3, trip down the stairs, through the barrier, out of the front door of the station and then up the steps onto the platform.

 

[bb21]

Gatelines should never be left unattended and locked. Should that be the case, a legitimate complaint should be lodged with the station operator.

Sometimes gatelines are minitored by CCTV, but in those cases there should be clear instructions to the customer left next to the gateline.

 

[BurtonM]

Re: ticket machines, in my experience what tickets a machine will sell you is based on whether they're valid at the exact time you're using the ticket machine (it must compare validity information to the [unfortunately invisible] system clock using an if statement or something).
For example, I show up at Stalybridge at 9:25 for a 9:46 service, and I have to wait until 9:30 for the TVM to display off peak tickets - and the anytime returns (where applicable) will still be displayed after this time too. If you show up before 10:00 and try to buy a 16-25 fare I think it tries to charge you £12 or whatever as well.

It's daft, why can't they just display a validity warning prompt or something?

 

[plymothian]

I see only a couple of posts have also mentioned that there is more than one ticket type out there, something which does cause problems, a recent one from Taunton was a person with a print at home having arrived on a Cross Country service from Birmingham only to find the barriers unstaffed but closed. He eventually decided to vault the barriers, he had a valid ticket but of a type which could not be read by the barriers so he was effectively trapped until someone turned up, how long do you wait for?

At Taunton, as long as it takes the staff to answer the well signed video help point next to the down side barriers.

 

[route:oxford]

If the barrier has displayed a "seek assistance" message and you instead push through, that would be an offence of passing through a ticket gate otherwise than in the proper manner.

And that assistance is more likely going to be on the other side of the barrier...

 

[orpine]

Oh and another one occurs to me:

* Staff standing in front of the already-too-few ticket barriers blocking them from use so they can "assist" people through gates whose tickets are being difficult.
It's not like they're blocking 20% of the egress gates while > 50 people try and get out of the station.

 

[najaB]

And that assistance is more likely going to be on the other side of the barrier...

I make it 50/50 seeing as the barrier has two sides.

 

[island]

Being charged a peak fare when touching in at 18:59 is the most infuriating thing. Its just unreasonable when you're clearly not getting a peak train.

And the good news is that you won't be charged a peak fare in that scenario, as the TfL system allows an unpublished grace period of a few minutes either way in favour of the customer

 

[LeeLivery]

And the good news is that you won't be charged a peak fare in that scenario, as the TfL system allows an unpublished grace period of a few minutes either way in favour of the customer

In the morning peaks I have noticed that, however, I have been charged a non railcard & peak fare more than once when the station clocks say 18:59 from both East and West Croydon. In East Croydon some of the clocks aren't even synced.
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Strikes me that it's not the basic intent that is wrong i.e. protecting revenue. It's the poor planning, design and operation and demotivated / unskilled staff in insufficient quantities.

Having been responsible for widespread ticket gate expansion on LU I've long been convinced of their value. They are *not* perfect nor are they a substitute for nuanced, intelligence led revenue protection activities. I am also clear that there are too many instances on National Rail where the widespread use of ticket gates is pretty stupid and as for botched, under capacity capacities then don't get me started.

The other major problem, and this is more my perception than based on hard facts, is that ticket coding and ticket logic practices on NR are not consistent. A fractured approach leads to some of the problems people have stated. The vast range of ticket types and restrictions also creates problems for automated retailing and ticket checking.

Strategically there is merit in busy urban networks having gates especially if there are smartcard / CPC type schemes proposed or in operation. Clearly you must also have staffed stations to ensure the gates work properly. I'm much less convinced on Intercity flows or rural / interurban flows. Some large stations would inevitably be gated given the overlaps in passenger flows but that should be manageable with intelligent design and operational practice.

The problem is that we have a very blunt policy view from the DfT which is "gates are good" whereas reality and passenger / business needs are much more nuanced and there is more than one way to solve a problem. One day the DfT *might* come to understand this but I'm not holding my breath given what they've done with the disaggregation approach for SEFT / smart ticketing.

Catford Bridge, Gipsy Hill and Nottingham are great examples of stupid installations. At these stations only the main entrance has barriers but the others don't. Catford Bridge has 4 other entrances without!

I find LU ticket machines annoying to say the least and I always use NR ones if I can. No change given and can only pay £5, £10, £15 etc with card is clearly not putting the passenger first. However I must say Underground staff are very competent with Oyster Cards. On the other hand, my experience with some Overground staff is the total opposite. One time my Oyster Card linked with a railcard screwed up (again) and I got charged £13 instead of the capped £5-6 on a Saturday. The member of Overground staff printed out a oyster history and told me nothing was wrong!

 

[jimbo99]

1. Staff should be present for both directions of travel and should be looking out for passengers requiring assistance, not standing in a huddle chatting to each other.

Gatelines should never be left unattended and locked. Should that be the case, a legitimate complaint should be lodged with the station operator.

Oh yes, this is an annoying problem at East Croydon. 3 barrier lines. All too often all the staff (typically 3) are standing at one end of the main barrier chatting to each other. PAX have to "interrupt" them to get their attention if they have a problem. On one occasion I got a bag trapped on one of the side barriers and despite the alarm sounding, nobody came over. A friend had to fetch one of the staff who clearly resented the disturbance.

 

[rg177]

I have had a few issues with the Leeds barriers in the past and I'm not entirely sure what their problem is.

1) Last August, I put a rover in it and not only was it rejected, the gate started chewing it up to the extent that the magnetic stripe was completely damaged. I was refused a replacement by multiple Northern ticket offices.

2) A few months ago I had one gate retain my ticket then refuse to open anyway. Had to somehow convince a member of staff I wasn't trying it on.

3) And finally on June 18 I put my ticket in the gate, it was accepted, then while walking through the gates decided to trap me. I was a little confused but attempted to nudge my way out, but the gateline attendant assumed I was doubling up with the previous person and started yelling at me. No apology given when I showed him that I actually had a valid ticket.

 

[221129]

Gatelines should never be left unattended and locked. Should that be the case, a legitimate complaint should be lodged with the station operator.

Sometimes gatelines are minitored by CCTV, but in those cases there should be clear instructions to the customer left next to the gateline.

As is exactly the case at Taunton. The Instructions couldn't be made more obvious.
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I see only a couple of posts have also mentioned that there is more than one ticket type out there, something which does cause problems, a recent one from Taunton was a person with a print at home having arrived on a Cross Country service from Birmingham only to find the barriers unstaffed but closed. He eventually decided to vault the barriers, he had a valid ticket but of a type which could not be read by the barriers so he was effectively trapped until someone turned up, how long do you wait for

So did he not follow the instructions to use the help point that are clearly advertised at that station?

 

[XC90]

I'm wondering at what point will customer convenience stop taking second place to revenue protection.


* Yesterday morning at 08:50 I couldn't buy an Offpeak ticket from a Ticket Machine for a off-peak 09:00. So after queuing at the ticket machines, I then had to queue at the manned desk. The lady said it was because there was still a fast (peak) train.


* Ticket barriers - Always fun queuing at them at under-provisioned stations when you're on a busy train. Also being shepparded all the way around the station to go through them rather than use the nearby exit which doesn't have barriers and is thus closed to the public (sometimes excepting peak times) is also fun!


* Queues of 40+ people waiting at what passes for "unpaid fares" (a single guy standing next to the disabled/bike gate with one of those hand-held things).


* Not being able to get out of the gates at 09:25 because your train is earlier than usual and your ticket is off-peak.


* Being woken (or interrupted) by ticket inspectors, sometimes repeatedly if the inspector changes during the journey.

I get that there are people who don't pay fares, but this lot must cost a fortune - not just for the "revenue protection" folks and kit, but also time wasted for the passengers. Given a large chunk of the railways is public subsidy anyway, this seems rather wasteful.

Any other examples of where revenue protection comes first?

It's worthwhile remembering revenue pays wages and if it wasn't for fare dodgers the barriers wouldn't be required. Some people like to think its a free service!

 

[RJ]

Almost certainly controversial but I've always felt that having more barriers is not a bad thing. If there's a problem of queues then I'd argue we simply need more barriers / faster barriers and in places where they won't cause so much of a bottleneck.

To be honest I've always liked how the Oyster system works for PAYG - you tap in at the beginning and the end and the appropriate fare is charged. Little room for abuse as if you don't tap in at the end you get charged a maximum fare which would be more than simply paying the correct fare.

In London people complain when there aren't any barriers, because they'll forget to validate then get charged a maximum fare.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/ange...illions-hit-for-not-touching-out-6553169.html

 

[yorkie]

It's worthwhile remembering revenue pays wages ...

Some train companies are very aware of that and realise that revenue comes from customers and to attract customers, you need to treat them well. If only they all took that view...

 

[jon0844]

One of my gripes is stations such as St Pancras (High Speed), where the majority of barriers could be set in the direction of peak passenger flow when a train arrives, but they're not. It's frustrating to be held up in a crowd of rush hour commuters whilst facing a row of red crosses on the barriers with virtually nobody coming through the other way.

And despite Oyster now working to Stratford, I had trouble getting out yesterday because many gates don't work. I needed the wide gate, and the pad didn't work. The gate was open and the attendant waved people through, and she said I had to tap out at another gate and come back.

As you can imagine, trying to do that with a young child and loads of people alighting from a 12 car train, was not fun. Having to walk sideways (I think it was a few gates over as the others were either entry only or their pads weren't working either), tap out, then walk back with people pushing throughout.

Not fun, but the lady didn't seem bothered and certainly didn't apologise for the problem with the gates. I suspect she just expected me to go through and take the hit financially!

 

[The Ham]

NR stations always seem to have just straight lines of gates, whilst LU seem to be able to provide a staggered line of gates so that there is (say) width for 6 gates and the provide 4 entry gates and a gap for the exit and then further along 4 exit gates with a gap for the entry with a fence between the two gate lines.

I know it wouldn't work everywhere there are not enough gates for the station, but it's got to help at some stations.

 

[DelayRepay]

I understand why we need barriers but it annoys me when there is major disruption so you're late anyway, then you have to waste another 10 minutes queuing to get through the barrier.

For example, at St Albans the week before last, Thameslink had major delays due to bad weather and lightening strikes. My train along with others had been waiting outside the station for about 25 minutes (and was already late). When we did arrive it was at the same time as another train so there were 2 trainloads of people trying to get out.

Those who know St Albans will know that anyone heading to the town centre will use the exit on Platform 4. There was a huge queue, such that the whole platform was blocked and people wanting to get to the footbridge were having to walk on the wrong side of the yellow line. Yet staff did not open the barriers. At the other exit there was the same problem, people were queuing onto the footbridge due to crowds going through the barriers. This exit leads to the bus station so the delay could have caused people to miss their next bus.

When I contacted Thameslink they said the barriers can't be left open as they are used for crowd control. I think they misunderstood as it is completely illogical to keep a crowd on a platform where fast trains are passing, when the crowd could easily disperse into the streets. They also seem quite happy to leave the barriers open when there is a staff shortage or late in the evening.

So I believe barriers are ok, but in times of disruption they should be left open. The barrier staff could then be re-directed to handing out delay repay claim forms and helping people who had missed their bus etc.
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They were – from the ticket office, who could advise of the restrictions. Operators are not required to make any particular type of tickets available from ticket vending machines.

But what if there is no ticket office, or if the ticket office is closed?

 

[infobleep]

At Reading once there was a review check at the Gatwick / Waterloo platform. Then I had to use the barrier as well. So two checks at one station.

I assume the revenue block was to stop people getting on Intercity services without a valid ticket. It wasn't a very well organised queue or anything like that of course.

Anorher time I got held at the barrier whilst a member of staff checked my Young Persons rail card. Person behind complained to me and a member of staff politely explained to him why he had to be patient.

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Yes, but the TOCs want it every way:

- won't sell you a ticket before the deadline by machine and insufficient or no staffing resource
- yet a train on which it would be valid may leave exactly at or soon after the deadline
- won't let you on the platform without a ticket or, possibly worse,
- let you on but then "fine" you a full undiscounted fare for not pre-purchasing or NIP you at the exit for a penalty etc.

Something needs to give a little......surely!

Why does something need to give. If it's not illegal then they could just say there will always be winners and losers or some other fob off. If there's no law requiring then to change and they don't want to, isn't it a case of tough luck for the passengers or am I being too cynical.

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[gswindale]

I always assumed the blocks on the Southern platforms at Reading were to catch ticket less travellers passing through.

I know that a number of stations on the Waterloo line are ungated and I believe that some other ones nearby such as Reading West are as well.

The last time I went through one of those it wasn't too bad although I did note one guy hop back on the train he had just got off - presumably to go back to Earley and buy a cheap ticket rather than the full ticket he should have had from Bracknell/ Martins Heron (I'd previously seen him jump the fence at Bracknell to avoid the ticket office!)

 

[jon0844]

When I contacted Thameslink they said the barriers can't be left open as they are used for crowd control. I think they misunderstood as it is completely illogical to keep a crowd on a platform where fast trains are passing, when the crowd could easily disperse into the streets. They also seem quite happy to leave the barriers open when there is a staff shortage or late in the evening.

So I believe barriers are ok, but in times of disruption they should be left open. The barrier staff could then be re-directed to handing out delay repay claim forms and helping people who had missed their bus etc.

At stations like Welwyn Garden City, the TOC must open the gates at busy times for safety reasons and that's precisely to keep platforms clear. I'm surprised Thameslink would say the opposite, but I assume they're thinking how gates can control flow ON to platforms.

If things were that crowded they should have opened the gates, or maybe a passenger should have done so!

 

[PeterC]

At Reading once there was a review check at the Gatwick / Waterloo platform. Then I had to use the barrier as well. So two checks at one station.

When I worked on in Southwark that was a common event at Waterloo between the Bakerloo / Northern and Jubilee.

If there weren't so many fare dodging scrotes around it wouldn't be necessary.

 

[infobleep]

In London people complain when there aren't any barriers, because they'll forget to validate then get charged a maximum fare.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/ange...illions-hit-for-not-touching-out-6553169.html

I've had that happen to me. Also has fit where I'd accidentally taken my train ticket out of my wallet. Barriers unstaffed so didn't take my ticket out and didn't know I was missing it.

Also once missed my train stop because I was engrossed in reading something and this particular train didn't make announcements.

When you get use to something, your brain starts to expect it every time.

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If the barrier has displayed a "seek assistance" message and you instead push through, that would be an offence of passing through a ticket gate otherwise than in the proper manner.

Whether something is or is not "moral" or "reasonable" is not relevant to the law. Or at least, not to this one.

If it says seek assistance after you tap and Oyster card and you then tap again and go through because it worked, does the law technically allow for this, even if in practice they wouldn't care as your making a valid journey and you didn't need staff help.

You are using it in a proper manner but you didn't follow the advice given. But is the proper manner to tap twice.

I know this is semantics and a very minor point. Just interested.

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[Taunton]

To be honest I've always liked how the Oyster system works for PAYG - you tap in at the beginning and the end and the appropriate fare is charged.

If you are not familiar with London you may therefore wonder how this happens :

In London people complain when there aren't any barriers, because they'll forget to validate then get charged a maximum fare.

I have had many foreign visitors who I give Oyster cards to who I find have been hit for maximum fares, particularly on the DLR where the one reader can be up at the platform, down at ground level, round a corner, wherever. There are no barriers on the DLR and the readers have apparently been sited just "wherever there was a convenient electricity supply". particularly bad are stations where the lift puts you out some way from the steps and the sole reader for touching out.

The station at London City Airport is a classic for foreign visitors not seeing where to touch out on the inconspicuous reader to one side there, as each knot of passengers descends from the train.

Waterloo station exit on the W&C for some reason is the same.

Likewise I got hit for a maximum fare myself when exiting Marble Arch where the fire alarms had gone off, which opens all gates. I tried later (once I realised) to get an explanation from ticket office staff when trying to reclaim a refund of what you were meant to do in this circumstance, but just got blank looks.

 

[geoffk]

Worth making the point that gates only protect the minimum fare. To get on to the platform at Leeds, all I need is a single to Burley Park or Bramley. It's still up to on-train staff to ensure I get on the correct train.

Then there is the matter of "break of journey". As there are no retail units inside the gates at Manchester Vic, someone with 20 minutes to spare between trains and wanting a coffee has to go through the gates and back again. This constitues a break of journey, but not all tickets allow this. So what happens?

 

[route:oxford]

Then there is the matter of "break of journey".

That's always fun... When I travel from Edinburgh Park to Stirling, I always buy a Shawfair to Stirling return ticket in advance (bright minded will know why).

It does cause a bit of a faff at Edinburgh Park as the staff are often on the wrong platform to manually review the tickets.

 

[sheff1]

But sometimes passengers with non-standard or unusual tickets need to wait.

What exactly is a non-standard/unusual ticket ?

A ticket is either valid to travel to or via a particular station or it is not. Why should someone with a valid ticket, freely sold by a TOC or an agent, "need" to wait ?

 

[greaterwest]

What exactly is a non-standard/unusual ticket ?

A ticket is either valid to travel to or via a particular station or it is not. Why should someone with a valid ticket, freely sold by a TOC or an agent, "need" to wait ?

X/S fare tickets are rejected by SWT barriers with a 106 (always to be rejected) and many tickets printed by advantix machines are rejected with an 09 anyway (corrupt magstripe)

Many long distance tickets are rejected with a 105 "invalid ticket type" as well in SWT land.

 

[infobleep]

X/S fare tickets are rejected by SWT barriers with a 106 (always to be rejected) and many tickets printed by advantix machines are rejected with an 09 anyway (corrupt magstripe)

Many long distance tickets are rejected with a 105 "invalid ticket type" as well in SWT land.

Of course long distance ticket types are not unusual in my opinion. Obviously a lot less in number than local tickets though.

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[greaterwest]

Of course long distance ticket types are not unusual in my opinion. Obviously a lot less in number than local tickets though.

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There also those with broken season tickets/gold cards which are rejected with an 09, or "AAA" gold cards that don't work through some barriers.