Q re: Penalty Fare in NT area?

[350401]

Hi,

I had a bit of a nightmare this morning. I was going from Chelford (unmanned station) into Manchester. No ticket guard selling tickets on the train due to a broken ticket machine. Thus there was a huge queue at the barrier to buy tickets, and wanting to not miss my lecture which was starting 10 minutes later, on the spur of the moment, went the 'back route' at Picc station (up platform stairs). Got stopped at door on way out and asked a ticket. When I didn't have one, I was asked for name/address by revenue inspectors.

They say that I had 'intended to not pay the fare' and so will be sending me 'proceedings' in the post. Apparantly, if I just pay the fine, there is no criminal record. But if I challenge it there is.

I'm worried that it will count as a dishonesty crime and appear on a record? Will this be the case if I just pay up. Is it in the same realm as parking fines/speeding fines etc. And anyone know how much the fine is? I read £20 somewhere.

I know it was wrong, I'm a regular commuter and I've never done it before (and won't since). I've learnt my lesson as it were - being on time for lectures isn't worth the risk I just want to know whats likely to happen now. Thanks for any info provided.

 

[First class]

You're going to wish you had been late.

You won't receive a penalty fare for definite. 100% fact. Northern do not operate penalty fares.

You will be summoned to attend court to face a charge of fraudulent travel - a serious offence- that will in all probability give you a criminal record and a large fine.

I know you're going to try and argue the queue was too big etc... but the fact of the matter is, you avoided paying the fare when there was an oppertunity, (alebeit a long wait for one), to purchase a ticket for your journey.


You were probably 'PACE'd by the inspectors, where you are cautioned and have your name/address taken. That is the Police & Criminal Evidence Act, which means anything you say/did can, and no doubt will, be used as evidence against you.

Other possible offences they could use:

1. Obtaining services by deception. (fraud)
2. Failing to follow reasonable instructions from railway staff (byelaw) - if they told everybody to go a certain way out and you failed to comply.
3. Trespass (if you went a way that was not a public area)

You cant just pay up, it's too late.

 

[350401]

You're going to wish you had been late.

You won't receive a penalty fare for definite. 100% fact. Northern do not operate penalty fares.

You will be summoned to attend court to face a charge of fraudulent travel - a serious offence- that will in all probability give you a criminal record and a large fine.

I know you're going to try and argue the queue was too big etc... but the fact of the matter is, you avoided paying the fare when there was an oppertunity, (alebeit a long wait for one), to purchase a ticket for your journey.


You were probably 'PACE'd by the inspectors, where you are cautioned and have your name/address taken. That is the Police & Criminal Evidence Act, which means anything you say/did can, and no doubt will, be used as evidence against you.

Other possible offences they could use:

1. Obtaining services by deception. (fraud)
2. Failing to follow reasonable instructions from railway staff (byelaw) - if they told everybody to go a certain way out and you failed to comply.
3. Trespass (if you went a way that was not a public area)

You cant just pay up, it's too late.

Oh dear. When I was visibly panicking I was reassured by the officer that if I followed the instructions in the letter sent that it would be a fine only. No criminal record would result. Such a result would only happen if I challenged it in court. I really hope that is the case.

 

[Ben]

I think what is meant is its a criminal record if you unsuccessfully challenge it rather than just for challenging it.

 

[Mojo]

Does Chelford have any sort of working Permit to Travel machine or Self-service ticket machine (if it does, ignore what I've said below).

When/if you actually get anything in the post then speak to your solicitor. Do not make any form of payment (unless all they ask for is the original fare), confession or go to any sort of court without having first obtained legal advice. There is no way that I can think of that a court would uphold a conviction if you've had no sort of way of paying.

It wouldn't be a Penalty Fare - according to NRES no TOCs operate a Penalty Fare scheme at Manchester Piccadilly nor is the station a Compulsory Ticket Area.

In no way have you done anything wrong - as far as I can tell you used an authorised exit (unless you sneaked through a fire exit or something) so you should have nothing to worry about. The only advice I can give you is to get proper legal advice from a professional rather than on a forum.

 

[350401]

If it is a fixed-penalty notice, I've no intention of challenging it. I'm hoping I can just pay the fine and be done with it. I admitted to the Revenue Protection Officer that I knew I shouldn't have done it and was sorry. Seeing my panic, he stated to not worry, pay the fine and no criminal record results. The record and £1000 fine only results if it is challenged unsuccessfully. Thus I'm asking for clarification on this point - how much is the fine that I can pay off if I don't challenge. And what record, if any, then results. Thanks

 

[Mojo]

If it is a fixed-penalty notice, I've no intention of challenging it. I'm hoping I can just pay the fine and be done with it. I admitted to the Revenue Protection Officer that I knew I shouldn't have done it and was sorry. Seeing my panic, he stated to not worry, pay the fine and no criminal record results. The record and £1000 fine only results if it is challenged unsuccessfully. Thus I'm asking for clarification on this point - how much is the fine that I can pay off if I don't challenge. And what record, if any, then results. Thanks

I personally wouldn't have said that - it sounds like you were bullied into making some sort of confession - a solicitor will provide you with better information. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't believe any sort of penalty notice exists for this purpose - the BTP can issue them for "disorder," but that's about it. Magistrates/Judges are the only people who can issue 'fines,' but Northern might be able to write you a letter asking for the fare plus some sort of admin fee.

 

[350401]

Does Chelford have any sort of working Permit to Travel machine or Self-service ticket machine (if it does, ignore what I've said below).

When/if you actually get anything in the post then speak to your solicitor. Do not make any form of payment (unless all they ask for is the original fare), confession or go to any sort of court without having first obtained legal advice. There is no way that I can think of that a court would uphold a conviction if you've had no sort of way of paying.

It wouldn't be a Penalty Fare - according to NRES no TOCs operate a Penalty Fare scheme at Manchester Piccadilly nor is the station a Compulsory Ticket Area.

In no way have you done anything wrong - as far as I can tell you used an authorised exit (unless you sneaked through a fire exit or something) so you should have nothing to worry about. The only advice I can give you is to get proper legal advice from a professional rather than on a forum.

Chelford doesn't have a PTT or Ticket Machine and no guard was selling on the train. My only opportunity was to pay to the G4S people at one end of the platform - 'the barrier'. I did leave via an authorised exit - up the stairs at the other end of the platform and out that way. What I did wrong was to not go through the G4S barrier and pay there, or buy a ticket retrospectively at a machine. I got 'done' for having got off a train and left the station with no valid ticket. I know I'm culpable in some way. I'm just hoping that I can pay a fine and have no criminal record. I wasn't trying to avoid paying the £4.55 fare. I was simply in a hurry to make my lecture and didn't want to queue. No excuse, but I hope not worthy of a criminal record.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: Has Brantastic actually been issued with a "Notice of Breach of Railway Byelaws", which I understand is a fixed penalty notice, non payment of which is dealt with in a magistrate's court, and liable to a "level three" fine (i.e up to £1,000)?

 

[350401]

:roll: Has Brantastic actually been issued with a "Notice of Breach of Railway Byelaws", which I understand is a fixed penalty notice, non payment of which is dealt with in a magistrate's court, and liable to a "level three" fine (i.e up to £1,000)?

Done some digging and think that this is the case - SE Rail have a copy of the railway byelaw's available - http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/main.php?page_id=119 - looking at it, 18.1 and 18.2 apply to my situation -

18 (1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

18 (2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

Then describing enforcement, fits my situation exactly -

23 (1) - Any person reasonably suspected by an authorised person of breaching or attempting to breach any of these Byelaws shall give his name and address when asked by an authorised person.

23 (2) Any person who breaches any of these Byelaws commits an offence and, with the exception of Byelaw 17, may be liable for each such offence to a penalty not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

So liable for a fixed-penalty notice. EEK. Well I've sure learned my lesson. Always queue. Its even more galling as I consider myself a railway enthusiast, so to get done for an offense on the railways makes me feel really bad.

 

[yorkie]

I don't understand why they didn't sell you a ticket.

If it's a valid exit from the station, surely they are there to sell tickets to people exiting/entering the station anyway?

 

[First class]

I think the point is he had no intention of paying the fare when he chose to use the alternative route, where he thought no inspectors/officials would be. He thought he could 'get away with it' by going a different way.

 

[me123]

I don't understand why they didn't sell you a ticket.

If it's a valid exit from the station, surely they are there to sell tickets to people exiting/entering the station anyway?

That's what I'm thinking. At Queen Street Station, all exits will sell you tickets, except North Hanover Street, but this is clearly marked. I've never heard of anyone being put in this position when leaving a station.

I know some barriers won't sell tickets. The auto ones at North Hanover Street (as I've mentioned) are unmanned for a lot of the time. And barrier staff at Central won't let you on to the platform without having purchased a ticket, but are of course permitted to sell when you're leaving.

He could well be in breach of Byelaw 18, but I think it's crazy that they have staff there who cannot sell a ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I think the point is he had no intention of paying the fare when he chose to use the alternative route, where he thought no inspectors/officials would be. He thought he could 'get away with it' by going a different way.

Is it advertised that you have to go a certain way to be sold a ticket and that if you go another way you are breaking some law?

Equally, are passengers entering the station not allowed to enter at that point if they don't already have a ticket?

 

[Mintona]

Ouch, unlucky. I would suspect you should be able to get away with just paying the £4.55 fare. Was it a Northern RPI or G4S bod who stopped you and took your details? If it was a Northern person, I know them all at South Manchester and may be able to have a word on your behalf with them.

If it does go further, state the truth. Just say you went that way as you had a lecture and hoped to see someone up there to sell a ticket with a shorter queue as you didn't have time in the main queue.

Another argument for the re-opening of Chelford (and Goostrey) ticket offices.

 

[350401]

Ouch, unlucky. I would suspect you should be able to get away with just paying the £4.55 fare. Was it a Northern RPI or G4S bod who stopped you and took your details? If it was a Northern person, I know them all at South Manchester and may be able to have a word on your behalf with them.

If it does go further, state the truth. Just say you went that way as you had a lecture and hoped to see someone up there to sell a ticket with a shorter queue as you didn't have time in the main queue.

Another argument for the re-opening of Chelford (and Goostrey) ticket offices.

It was actually a TPE RPO that stopped me and took my details. One of them was very serious and one was very friendly and tried to stop me from having a coronary when I was stopped, by telling me it is not a criminal offense unless the fine is unsuccessfully challenged. Thanks for your offer of assistance however, its much appreciated. What do you reckon I will receive in the post? Fixed penalty for breach of bye-laws? Demand for payment of fare plus maybe an admin charge? According to the RPO, it wont be court summons, that much I'm sure.

I've stated the truth the whole time and have mentioned that it was simply due to my hurry to attend a lecture in my official interview. I was 'PACED' but I think/hope this is a formality, as RPOs are there to enforce the railway bye-laws? It wasn't the British Transport Police. That means its less serious?

Also I note 18 (3) of the bye-laws - No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:
(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey; or

That applies to Chelford. Not much of a defense perhaps, but maybe backs up my hope it'll be fixed-penalty notice and not anything resulting in a record.

Mintona raises a good point re: ticket offices/machines. If there was a ticket machine at Chelford, I'd buy a ticket every day before I traveled. When I catch the 07.51, I have to queue for ages at Oxford Road to buy a ticket to exit the barrier, as the guard rarely reaches me due to how busy the train is. Thats major inconvenience. User numbers at Chelford have halved since the Dec 08 timetable according to RUG figures. This is probably one reason why.

 

[me123]

As far as I can see, you're not in breach of byelaws 17 or 18, but I still just find it odd that they're not manning every exit. As I've said before, every station I've been to with multiple exits and ticket barriers is well covered to ensure that you can buy a ticket at any barrier point. It's just weird that there's people down there who are there to stop people escaping, whilst it's a good chance IMO to arm them with machines and cut the queues at the main exits.

 

[metrocammel]

I think it may be due to the 'geography' at Manchester Piccadilly. Since about 2004, they closed the 'rear' entrance onto Fairfield St. If that wasn't closed, it would be perfectly feasible to walk 'back', away from the barriers, up the stairs & onto Fairfield St (though you would then have to pass G4S barriers on the 'link bridge'). The only real argument you could have used would be if you were making your way to the lift from the 'satelite lounge' to the short-stay car park. If you were apprehended at the the bottom of the travelator, it does seem rather clear that you have attempted to 'evade' the fare as you have effectively arrived back to where you would have been if you'd gone through the platform end barriers.

I had a similar 'problem' here once. I left a 5-car TPE (back in the days of 158s!) and I was near the footbridge. As I knew the Securicor ticket barrier manager on the Link Bridge, I decided to wander over the bridge and see if he was on duty- as I couldn't see him, I assumed he wasn't on duty, so I carried on down the travelator. I was nearly off the second 'flat' travelator when a BTP officer came running down shouting 'oi, you stop'. At first I thought he was was chasing someone, but he came up to me and read out my rights, and told me I was under suspicion of evading the fare(!) I let him carry on with this spiel, then he produced his notebook, and asked me where I'd travelled from. I replied 'Stalybridge, oh, and here's my season ticket' (!) He was unbelievably withered!! He stuttered a bit and then asked me why I'd 'avoided' the barriers. He was then even more withered when I explained that, on the contrary, I was seeing if the Securicor manager, Norman, was on duty! I then just said, 'I'll be late for school if you hold me any longer, am I free to go', and that was that!

What a fool he must have felt, but it's obvious that they must watch out for people trying to avoid the barriers like that - as I say, that 'incident' was in 2004 / 2005- so in that time, surely they could have but some people barriers in strategic points on the bridge?

Also, on the subject of Northern RPIs, I was also unaware that they had these. I know TPE have what's know as 'Revenue Protection Officers', but these are basically TTIs, and have no powers to give cautions etc- like the chaps/ chappesses at Huddersfield station, and ocassionally on the Lime St trains between Picc & Lime St.

 

[yorkie]

It was actually a TPE RPO that stopped me and took my details. .

Hmm... I wonder if TPE have the right to do this to a NT customer? I heard reports before that TPE complained when NT were interfearing with TPE customers, and NT were forced to withdraw.

As for the post by metrocammel, that proves that some people on the railway have a guilty until proven innocent attitude. They also think that they are mindreaders, so if you avoided a queue that means you do not want to pay - when all it may mean is that you wanted to find a smaller queue at another exit.

It's great to hear a story about one of these mindreaders being absolutely withered, I just hope they change their rotten ways.

It's changed now, but I remember at King's Cross there used to always be people queuing for cash machines, when there was no queue at little-used machines nearby. If the same logic were applied to this, anyone leaving the large queue could be accused of wanting to avoid buying things that day and have intent to steal as they changed their mind about withdrawing money. Of course, that would be nonsense, but that is the danger of attempting to mind read plus assuming guilt.

The railway must be the worst industry for assuming guilt and treating customers like terrorists/thieves.

 

[Railjet]

The railway must be the worst industry for assuming guilt and treating customers like terrorists/thieves.

Good thing or not ..... Ken Livingstone agrees with you!