Query about red bus drivers in London

[GMT]

Hi guys, I was wondering whether driving buses in London and living outside it is something feasible, whether bus companies consider applications from people like me living 30 miles away from the capital. Is any of you one of them or do you know anyone commuting to London (either by car or train) who does that job. I heard that there are three types of shifts: dawn, midday and dusk, so to speak.

Any advice is much appreciated.

 

[Lrd]

Why waste time and money commuting into London? To then sit in London traffic for a meagre wage.

Just go with your local company, the smaller the better as you'll have better work.

 

[CatfordCat]

Yes, there are quite a few 'red bus' drivers who live some distance outside London - SE London garages have a number of drivers who live in the medway towns and round Maidstone, for example. i am aware of one or two who live on the south coast.

Whether companies will take on new drivers who live that far away, or whether they are drivers who originally lived closer to garage and then moved house, I couldn't say.

All I can suggest is contact whatever company/ies you're thinking about and ask them.

TFL 'day' routes can start around 0400 and finish around 0200. The first and last journeys on 'night' routes can be done by day duties (the exact definition of what a night shift is may vary between operators but in some cases it's defined by one that works across 0300)

There are shifts starting all through the day - there is a second phase of early-ish shifts from 0800 or 0900 to start off meal reliefs for the earliest of early shifts, some middle turns starting late morning to lunch time, and late shifts starting any time between early afternoon and 5 or 6 pm. The exact pattern will vary from one garage, and even one route, to another.

You also get 'spreadover' shifts which mean a longish break in the middle - potentially anything up to a 12 hour day (in a few cases longer). I guess these may not be much fun if you're too far away to go home for the middle bit.

Night shifts tend to be done by regular night drivers, although this varies, as there are more night buses out Friday and Saturday nights.

Different operators have different agreements on 'flexible rostering' - i.e. whether you're on the same duty all week or different (there are legal limits about how short the gap between one day's duty and the next can be - but it's not all that generous - something else to bear in mind if you have a long travel to work.)

Some operators do have separate early / middle / late rotas, although getting on to them can be a case of waiting for a vacancy on them (and seniority to get on them) - in some cases they will give priority to people who have child / family care needs. When you start, you're going to be 'spare' and not have a lot of choice in what shifts you get.

You'll need to think about how you're going to get to work, even in poor weather in winter. Most garages don't have enough car parking space for all their drivers (and the older 'red brick' garages may not have staff parking at all, as they were built in an age where busmen (and i use the term intentionally) didn't run cars.)

Whether all of these factors make it worth the wages on offer in London, only you can decide...

 

[GMT]

@CatfordCat

Thank you very much for your detailed feedback. Very helpful and useful. Food for thought.


@ Lrd

I understand your point of view. But often the local company may be more difficult to enter because locally there are less opportunities; consequently lots of people apply. And in any case I have already applied long ago to the local depot but with no joy, so far. Moreover, unlike London, locally you have to issue tickets (it's a business unit, as they call it). And there is always the passenger saying that doesn't have any money but wants to travel all the same. And if you let him/her in and then the inspector finds out, you are in trouble. And I was also told that the depot is a bit 'pressurised'.

Don't get me wrong, I know that driving in London would have its own negative points (even about customers), but...something to be weighed up anyway.

 

[Statto]

I'd be baulk at the idea of commuting 30 miles[60 mile round trip] then driving for what could be 8-12 hours with regulated breaks, plus most London bus garages operate 24/7 so shifts can start anytime of the day/night, as Catford Cat mentions, most day routes start around 4am so your shift could start 3-3.30am, the time it takes to check the bus for faults ecc, then driving it from garage to starting point for the route your driving, then you have to factor in how long your commute is going to be.

 

[CatfordCat]

And there is always the passenger saying that doesn't have any money but wants to travel all the same. And if you let him/her in and then the inspector finds out, you are in trouble. And I was also told that the depot is a bit 'pressurised'.

In London, you get arguments instead with people who don't have oyster cards, or don't have enough credit even for one more journey, visitors to London who don't know that you can't pay cash.

And there are more revenue inspections than outside London (albeit by TFL staff not bus operators), then there's TFL's 'mystery shoppers' and covert driving standards assessors.

And there's a fair amount of pressure in London to cover mileage and 'maintain headway' - in London, routes that are 'frequent' (i.e. every 12 minutes or more frequent) have their performance measured on 'excess waiting time' or how even the service is, rather than measuring whether bus running number X is running at the exact time it's supposed to (from the passenger point of view it really doesn't matter if every single bus is an hour late if they are still providing a regular service)

If things are going wrong, controllers will (for example, on a five minute interval service) try and keep buses running every 6 minutes rather than have one bus running late, the one behind on time but right up the previous one's tail lights, the next one missing leading to a ten minute gap, and so on.

So you get the control room on the radio at fairly frequent intervals, and the "this bus is being held back to regulate the service" situation (I still struggle to cope with the idea of improving the service by making buses run late) - while this may make the performance figures look better, it doesn't half annoy the passengers already on the bus. especially if you get it a couple of stops before the major interchange where most passengers want to get off.

There is a book "The Maintenance of Headway" by Magnus Mills which I'd recommend a read of.

The official version is this (TFL website) about how they measure performance.

Broadly speaking, traffic is worse, and worse for much longer periods of the day, in London. (obviously depends where you are - local services in somewhere like Orpington are more like provincial towns than central London) and if you do end up doing routes in to central London, you're going to get diversions / curtailments / delays because of things like big events, demonstrations and such.

One option if there's few opportunities close to home may be to stick it out in London a couple of years (I'm assuming you'd be going in without a PCV licence - most operators will expect you to pay training costs back if you quit within 2 years) then see if you can get a job closer to home as an existing PCV licence holder.

 

[GMT]

One option if there's few opportunities close to home may be to stick it out in London a couple of years (I'm assuming you'd be going in without a PCV licence - most operators will expect you to pay training costs back if you quit within 2 years) then see if you can get a job closer to home as an existing PCV licence holder.

Thanks again. You are giving me a very good insight into the bus driving environment.

I'm aware of the £2000 to be returned if you quit within 2 years. It's fair enough, they are investing on you after all.

 

[Lrd]

If you really want to drive in London then can I recommend National Express (or one of their operators)? The customers are much nicer, you rarely sell tickets and the work is pretty good as you'd be on EU rules rather than domestic which means you're​ entitled to longer rest periods and do less driving.

 

[CatfordCat]

Not sure there's much Nat Ex work going in the north kent region. There's NX routes through Kent, but think most of the coaches (and therefore drivers) are based on the coast (e.g. Stagecoach East Kent at Dover)

Not sure how many operators have London based drivers for NX work even if the coaches are based at the far end of the route.

Having said that, most coach operators tend to want people who've already got a PCV licence and a bit of experience (the same can be said for the London sightseeing tour operators - and they are mostly the wrong side of London for someone in Kent - Original Tour are at Wandsworth, Big Bus at Earlsfield, Golden Tours are somewhere more north-west) - although there are some coach operators who will take on trainee drivers - asking won't do any harm.

Round Heathrow, NX run a 'Hotel Hopper' network which is outwith the TFL set up. This (as the name suggests) is a network of shuttle routes with (last time I saw them) Dennis Dart size buses - between the Heathrow terminals and various hotels - these get out as far out as Langley (edge of Slough) - may be something similar based on Gatwick, but fairly sure NX have an operating base near Gatwick.

There will probably be an assortment of car park shuttle bus type operations as well.

Not sure how close Gatwick is to OP's bit of Kent, or how many of these operators would recruit trainee drivers - although may be worth some research.

 

[Antman]

Not sure there's much Nat Ex work going in the north kent region. There's NX routes through Kent, but think most of the coaches (and therefore drivers) are based on the coast (e.g. Stagecoach East Kent at Dover)

Not sure how many operators have London based drivers for NX work even if the coaches are based at the far end of the route.

Having said that, most coach operators tend to want people who've already got a PCV licence and a bit of experience (the same can be said for the London sightseeing tour operators - and they are mostly the wrong side of London for someone in Kent - Original Tour are at Wandsworth, Big Bus at Earlsfield, Golden Tours are somewhere more north-west) - although there are some coach operators who will take on trainee drivers - asking won't do any harm.

Round Heathrow, NX run a 'Hotel Hopper' network which is outwith the TFL set up. This (as the name suggests) is a network of shuttle routes with (last time I saw them) Dennis Dart size buses - between the Heathrow terminals and various hotels - these get out as far out as Langley (edge of Slough) - may be something similar based on Gatwick, but fairly sure NX have an operating base near Gatwick.

There will probably be an assortment of car park shuttle bus type operations as well.

Not sure how close Gatwick is to OP's bit of Kent, or how many of these operators would recruit trainee drivers - although may be worth some research.

The National Express contracts are passing from Stagecoach to Kings Ferry (part of NX) at Gillingham later this year.

 

[Antman]

Hi guys, I was wondering whether driving buses in London and living outside it is something feasible, whether bus companies consider applications from people like me living 30 miles away from the capital. Is any of you one of them or do you know anyone commuting to London (either by car or train) who does that job. I heard that there are three types of shifts: dawn, midday and dusk, so to speak.

Any advice is much appreciated.

If you're happy to do it I think most operators will be happy to take you.

I know of bus drivers living on the south coast who commute into London, I don't know where you live but garages on the outskirts like Bexleyheath or Potters Bar would be ideal.

 

[Ginga]

The National Express contracts are passing from Stagecoach to Kings Ferry (part of NX) at Gillingham later this year.

The new East Kent drivers are only getting £90 per day. £12:15 per hour for Drivers working out of Victoria. You can get £14 to £15 per hour on Agency work or Temp Rail replacement. Trent Barton Night Drivers on Indigo 24/7 used to get £13 per hour for permanent night's.

 

[Busaholic]

Hi guys, I was wondering whether driving buses in London and living outside it is something feasible, whether bus companies consider applications from people like me living 30 miles away from the capital. Is any of you one of them or do you know anyone commuting to London (either by car or train) who does that job. I heard that there are three types of shifts: dawn, midday and dusk, so to speak.

Any advice is much appreciated.

When you say 'living 30 miles from the capital' do you mean from Charing Cross or the London/Kent border, because that could make a difference to a prospective employer? I read in a bus magazine of a Kentish bus company where some of the drivers lived in S.E. London but preferred the easier life of driving in Kent (admittedly it was Sevenoaks rather than Chatham!). Personally, if I was in your position my first approach would be to Metrobus down at Green St Green near Orpington - a well-regarded company with perhaps less in the way of 'night' work than some others, as things stand.

 

[CatfordCat]

Personally, if I was in your position my first approach would be to Metrobus down at Green St Green near Orpington - a well-regarded company with perhaps less in the way of 'night' work than some others, as things stand.

Now of course part of Go Ahead London, although from what I know, it doesn't have quite the same terms & conditions or culture of the garages that used to be London Transport garages.

This is their recruitment page which includes a phone number.

They don't do any 'night bus' routes (as in running all night) but they do have some fairly early / late duties. 358 for example has first departure from Crystal Palace at 0400 and last arrival there at 0129 - those duties will be out of garage before 0330 and back some time after 0200 (I don't think they have made any night shifts out of the last ones back then the first ones out, if you see what I mean)

Metrobus also have quite a few routes which work quite remotely from the garage (obviously buses start from Green Street Green in the morning and get back there at the end of day) but most meal breaks are remote, and driver changes are done using company cars / mini-buses to / from Lewisham or Eltham or Bromley so less chance to socialise with colleagues in the garage canteen as was traditional and still happens more at the old 'red brick' bus garages.

Choice of what rota you go on to (i.e. which route or which group of routes you work on) is usually based on length of service - every garage will have one or two routes that tend to be less popular so are the first routes you go on when you come off 'the spare', and some routes which are very much the home of the long service drivers, and various points in between.

 

[GMT]

Hi guys, thanks again for the helpful feedback.

I tell you my story, as briefly as I can: I applied for a post of shunter train driver at Gillingham depot in 2015, successfully but since then I received about six emails from SE HR saying that they would let me know once the dates of the assessment are communicated to them. I’m still waiting.

In the meantime, last year I applied more or less at the same time for a post of trainee train driver with Thameslink and for bus driving with Arriva. I passed the assessment and driver manager interview with Thameslink but I failed the last interview (the MMI).

More or less at the same time I passed the assessment of bus driver at Arriva in Wood Green. Then HR at Arriva called me for an interview at Wood Green depot. I had to contact and remind them that my preference was Dartford not Wood Green. I live in Gillingham, now I suppose you understand why I chose Dartford. The depot at Dartford is very small and therefore it’s less hectic than other big ones, but also very desirable. As a matter of fact, at Dartford they weren’t recruiting, but HR sent me over there all the same, perhaps because they messed up by putting me for Wood Green.

The experience with Arriva at Dartford wasn’t that great. I passed the initial informal interview with a manager who wasn’t meant to be my interviewer, as nobody was available to interview me. Nice chap though. Amongst other things, they left me to wait in the kitchen for an hour, with Jeremy Kyle on the screen for the entire length of my waiting. They had literally forgotten about me. I was stinking so much of fried food…I don’t even know why I bothered to wear a suit. Anyway, off I went for the driving test after my interview. I failed. The instructor told me that I didn’t use the mirrors enough. I thought I had though. He said ‘you can drive, mind you, but…’ I just wondered, if I’m applying for a trainee post, surely I can’t be flawless. That would have been something to be addressed during the training perhaps…I had applied for Arriva Gillingham depot, too, but in the end I chose Dartford. Well, it didn’t go well. Perhaps it wasn’t meant to be. I won’t reapply for Dartford.

So now, all I want to do is trying my second attempt as train driver. If I fail a second time, I’m done with trains and can focus on bus driving. I don’t want to apply right now for bus driving because I don’t want to give back 2000k, should I be successful in my chase for the train driver job. Basically I want a change of career, as I’ve been working in an office environment (in London) for the past 18 years. I know bus driving or train driving is not a relaxing environment. Certainly a relaxing environment is at the Canary Islands or in Barbados, but I haven’t yet put aside enough money to live the rest of my life over there. Therefore I still need a job, also a change of career; I like driving and I feel that those two options are the best ones for me.

I had thought of Bromley depot, but I hadn’t thought of Orpington. I’ll surely look into that.

 

[Statto]

You could try Stagecoach, Plumstead, Catford or, Bromley garage, or Go Ahead London Central, Bexleyheath garage as well, however these garages operate 24/7, Plumstead or Bexleyheath probably be the nearest garages

 

[Antman]

Hi guys, thanks again for the helpful feedback.

I tell you my story, as briefly as I can: I applied for a post of shunter train driver at Gillingham depot in 2015, successfully but since then I received about six emails from SE HR saying that they would let me know once the dates of the assessment are communicated to them. I’m still waiting.

In the meantime, last year I applied more or less at the same time for a post of trainee train driver with Thameslink and for bus driving with Arriva. I passed the assessment and driver manager interview with Thameslink but I failed the last interview (the MMI).

More or less at the same time I passed the assessment of bus driver at Arriva in Wood Green. Then HR at Arriva called me for an interview at Wood Green depot. I had to contact and remind them that my preference was Dartford not Wood Green. I live in Gillingham, now I suppose you understand why I chose Dartford. The depot at Dartford is very small and therefore it’s less hectic than other big ones, but also very desirable. As a matter of fact, at Dartford they weren’t recruiting, but HR sent me over there all the same, perhaps because they messed up by putting me for Wood Green.

The experience with Arriva at Dartford wasn’t that great. I passed the initial informal interview with a manager who wasn’t meant to be my interviewer, as nobody was available to interview me. Nice chap though. Amongst other things, they left me to wait in the kitchen for an hour, with Jeremy Kyle on the screen for the entire length of my waiting. They had literally forgotten about me. I was stinking so much of fried food…I don’t even know why I bothered to wear a suit. Anyway, off I went for the driving test after my interview. I failed. The instructor told me that I didn’t use the mirrors enough. I thought I had though. He said ‘you can drive, mind you, but…’ I just wondered, if I’m applying for a trainee post, surely I can’t be flawless. That would have been something to be addressed during the training perhaps…I had applied for Arriva Gillingham depot, too, but in the end I chose Dartford. Well, it didn’t go well. Perhaps it wasn’t meant to be. I won’t reapply for Dartford.

So now, all I want to do is trying my second attempt as train driver. If I fail a second time, I’m done with trains and can focus on bus driving. I don’t want to apply right now for bus driving because I don’t want to give back 2000k, should I be successful in my chase for the train driver job. Basically I want a change of career, as I’ve been working in an office environment (in London) for the past 18 years. I know bus driving or train driving is not a relaxing environment. Certainly a relaxing environment is at the Canary Islands or in Barbados, but I haven’t yet put aside enough money to live the rest of my life over there. Therefore I still need a job, also a change of career; I like driving and I feel that those two options are the best ones for me.

I had thought of Bromley depot, but I hadn’t thought of Orpington. I’ll surely look into that.

What you've said about Dartford doesn't surprise me at all, my brother in law used to work there and it's not exactly the most professionally run garage in the world.

Stagecoach at Bromley or Plumstead or Go Ahead at either Bexleyheath or Green Street Green might be a better option if you're still interested in becoming a bus driver although vacancies after often at the inner London garages.