Query on Victorian era rail services from Stalybridge to Stockport, via Ashton-under-Lyne.

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Has anyone any knowledge of Victorian era rail services that would have taken such a route?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Presumably it would have been a very busy freight route, serving from Guide Bridge as a continuation of the Woodhead route from Yorkshire. There must be a reason that part of the formation is/was wide enough for 4 track.

 

[edwin_m]

Well into the second half of the 20th century there were trains from Stockport for the likes of Oldham and Huddersfield, including portions of London trains. I wouldn't like to say which route they took through the tangle of lines around Guide Bridge.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Presumably it would have been a very busy freight route, serving from Guide Bridge as a continuation of the Woodhead route from Yorkshire. There must be a reason that part of the formation is/was wide enough for 4 track.

It was indeed 4 track between Denton and Heaton Norris Junction. The Up/Down slow lines were taken out of use during 1970 or 71 from memory; they initially remained operational between Reddish South and Ash Bridge for the purpose of access to/from the Standard Railway Wagon Co. site, beyond Ash Bridge Junction the Up slow line line remains in use to this day as a freight loop whilst the former slow lines now derelict island platforms are still in situ at Denton & Reddish South stations.

 

[Revaulx]

It was indeed 4 track between Denton and Heaton Norris Junction. The Up/Down slow lines were taken out of use during 1970 or 71 from memory; they initially remained operational between Reddish South and Ash Bridge for the purpose of access to/from the Standard Railway Wagon Co. site, beyond Ash Bridge Junction the Up slow line line remains in use to this day as a freight loop whilst the former slow lines now derelict island platforms are still in situ at Denton & Reddish South stations.

4 track to Denton Junction, which remarkably still exists, then a three way split: left to Droylsden and Ashton Moss (latter still open), middle to Guide Bridge (ditto), right direct to Stalyvegas vía Hooley Hill.

Even in the late 70s, when a lot of these lines had disappeared and nearly all of the heavy industry in East Manchester had disappeared, Guide Bridge was still really busy with freight.

 

[30907]

Well into the second half of the 20th century there were trains from Stockport for the likes of Oldham and Huddersfield, including portions of London trains. I wouldn't like to say which route they took through the tangle of lines around Guide Bridge.

The preferred route would have avoided Guide Bridge unless there was a booked stop, surely? My earliest timetable is the 1910 Bradshaw reprint, is that of any use?

 

[billh]

Not Victorian but the Stalybridge- Stockport service used that route for several weeks in 1984 when Guide Bridge was being rationalized and 25kV'd. I think this called at Ashton instead of Guide Bridge and was the last time the OAGB Junction to Ashton Moss South line was used.
Was there a Huddersfield/Greenfield- Stockport LNWR service prior to 1890 ,before the Hooley Hill Line opened? LNWR trains would not have been welcome at Guide Bridge!
Sorry , not really answered your question.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Many thanks to all those who have replied to this thread.

 

[Springs Branch]

The LNWR must have operated substantial through goods traffic via Stalybridge, given the way the company kept expanding its infrastructure there in the late Victorian period.

The development of the web of different companies' lines around Ashton-under-Lyne, Guide Bridge and Stalybridge is quite interesting historically (RCH map attached).

In summary:

• Between the LNWR's predecessor companies first arriving in Stalybridge around 1845-1849, and 1873, all LNWR traffic would need to go through Guide Bridge and the MS&LR's line to Stalybridge.
• From 1873 to 1893, as well as the Guide Bridge route, through trains could be sent via the LNWR's newly-constructed connection from Denton Jct to Crowthorne Jct (on the existing OA&GB line from Guide Bridge) then on to Ashton-under-Lyne and Stalybridge that way.
• In 1893 the Stalybridge Junction Line was opened between Denton Junction and Stalybridge via Hooley Hill. This avoided both Guide Bridge & the MS&LR's connecting line, and the alternative of having to run over the L&Y's line through Ashton-under-Lyne.
• Finally, in 1894 the LNWR opened the Micklehurst loop - a totally separate double-track railway along the eastern side of the River Tame valley and an extra double-track tunnel at Standedge. No doubt this helped accommodate heavy, unfitted goods trains slogging up to Standedge, or conversely gingerly making their way downhill trying not to run away on the gradients.

There must have been some lucrative traffic to justify all this.

Regarding train services, it seems the Denton - Crowthorne Jct - Ashton line was used by goods trains, plus regular Stockport - Ashton - Oldham passenger trains (which did not serve Stalybridge).

Some of the LNWR's regular Stockport - Stalybridge local trains went via the direct Hooley Hill & Dukinfield line when that opened throughout in 1893, though those two stations seem to have been quite marginal and presumably a good fraction of trains still went via Guide Bridge.

Once the Hooley Hill & Dukinfield line was open, it would make most sense for the LNWR to send all their through trains, goods and passenger, over their own line, rather than the L&Y and OA&GB route via Ashton-under-Lyne.

In the BR era (presumably after the Hooley Hill line had closed in 1968) the nightly York - Shrewsbury/Aberystwyth postal/passenger train was booked in both directions for Stalybridge - Ashton - Crowthorne Jct - Ashton Moss Jct - Denton Jct - Stockport, avoiding Guide Bridge. Regular Stockport/Stalybridge "Paytrain" DMUs, of course, went via Guide Bridge (engineering diversions excepted).

File:Ashton, Ashton Moss, Crothorn, Droylsden, Guide Bridge, Hyde, Oldham & Stalybridge RJD 32.jpg - Wikimedia Commons

commons.wikimedia.org

 

[edwin_m]

The preferred route would have avoided Guide Bridge unless there was a booked stop, surely? My earliest timetable is the 1910 Bradshaw reprint, is that of any use?

Probably so, especially as the trains would presumably have been LNWR and Guide Bridge itself was Great Central.

The OP mentioned stops in Ashton. The LNWR could have run a train entire on its own metals via the Hooley Hill line, which according to Rail Map Online had a station at Dukinfield & Ashton. They could also have made use of their participation in the OA&GB joint line and their running powers over the L&Y to run one via Ashton (Charlestown), the stations surviving today. If the Bradshaw mentions either than that defines the route, at least in 1910.

 

[Bevan Price]

The LNWR 1891 (Jan. & Feb.) timetable includes Hooley Hill station. It shows 16 trains each way between Stockport & Stalybridge, 2 of which were non-stop. Most of the others ran via Hooley Hill, but 5 eastbound and 3 westbound called at Guide Bridge (MS&LR as it then was.)
Trains from Hooley Hill would have used the original connection to the GCR line just before Dukinfield (GCR) station; the Dukinfield station service was very sparse - just 2 each way, all in the morning - but most called at nearby Ashton Park Parade.

There were 8 trains each way between Stockport and Oldham (Clegg St. or Glodwick Road), one each way conveying a London Euston / Rochdale portion.

By the LNWR October 1921 timetable (reprint), all the stopping trains called at Hooley Hill, with none booked to stop at Guide Bridge (GCR). Instead, they used the newer (1893 ?) LNWR's own line to Stalybridge via Dukinfield & Ashton station, where most of the stopping trains called.

 

[Springs Branch]

Prompted by the OP's question and thinking of the likely situation in the 1880s, when the volume of trans-Pennine goods traffic was forcing the LNWR to plan building its separate Denton Jct - Stalybridge line and the Micklehurst Loop, I wonder how much of the LNWR through goods traffic heading to/from Standedge Tunnel could have gone via the OA&GB line to Oldham Glodwick Road, then the LNWR's line between Oldham and Greenfield?

This would avoid all the congestion and running on other companies' lines around Guide Bridge and Stalybridge. The OA&GB line was jointly owned by the LNWR and MS&LR (later GC).

I'm not sure of the geography of the OA&GB route, or the LNWR Oldham - Greenfield branch. Did they have steep gradients and sharp curvature making them unsuitable for heavy goods trains? Could the LNWR have had an alternative route via Oldham for trans-Pennine trains?

 

[Bevan Price]

Prompted by the OP's question and thinking of the likely situation in the 1880s, when the volume of trans-Pennine goods traffic was forcing the LNWR to plan building its separate Denton Jct - Stalybridge line and the Micklehurst Loop, I wonder how much of the LNWR through goods traffic heading to/from Standedge Tunnel could have gone via the OA&GB line to Oldham Glodwick Road, then the LNWR's line between Oldham and Greenfield?

This would avoid all the congestion and running on other companies' lines around Guide Bridge and Stalybridge. The OA&GB line was jointly owned by the LNWR and MS&LR (later GC).

I'm not sure of the geography of the OA&GB route, or the LNWR Oldham - Greenfield branch. Did they have steep gradients and sharp curvature making them unsuitable for heavy goods trains? Could the LNWR have had an alternative route via Oldham for trans-Pennine trains?

Not sure about freight, but until the early years of BR, there were a handful of booked local / stopping passenger services between Oldham Clegg Street and Huddersfield or Leeds. Oldham is quite a large town, and to me it seems odd that no attempt was made to run some fast services from Manchester via Oldham & Huddersfield to Leeds. Instead, it mostly had to rely on connections at Greenfield.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Was there ever a route discussed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway that on approaching Rochdale from the Littleborough direction, would have taken a chord that would have joined the Shaw and Crompton line to allow access into the Oldham area without the need for a reversal in Rochdale?

 

[Revaulx]

Not sure about freight, but until the early years of BR, there were a handful of booked local / stopping passenger services between Oldham Clegg Street and Huddersfield or Leeds. Oldham is quite a large town, and to me it seems odd that no attempt was made to run some fast services from Manchester via Oldham & Huddersfield to Leeds. Instead, it mostly had to rely on connections at Greenfield.

Well they'd have stopped being fast services if they'd had to go via Oldham!

Also I don't think Oldham's status as a bit of a railway backwater was helped by its having a multiplicity of grotty little stations, none of which was really well situated for the town centre.

Most of all though, the LMS never really succeeded in getting its separate constituents to work together properly; even LNW and L&Y, whose relations were good immediately prior to the Grouping. Look at Colne: it remained a Midland branch from Skipton and an L&Y one from Burnley until well into BR days.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well they'd have stopped being fast services if they'd had to go via Oldham! Also I don't think Oldham's status as a bit of a railway backwater was helped by its having a multiplicity of grotty little stations, none of which was really well situated for the town centre.

Would you not have thought that Oldham Central railway station was well situated for Oldham town centre?

 

[edwin_m]

Would you not have thought that Oldham Central railway station was well situated for Oldham town centre?

Maybe 400yd from the Town Hall, somewhat uphill, and further from the Market. I'm too young to remember Oldham before the destruction in the 70s but the land north of Central had been truly part of the town centre it wouldn't have been bulldozed to make the bypass. Certainly after that happened the remaining station at Mumps (same distance or slightly further from most of the centre) felt incredibly distant through a horrible subway.

 

[Springs Branch]

Was there ever a route discussed by the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway that on approaching Rochdale from the Littleborough direction, would have taken a chord that would have joined the Shaw and Crompton line to allow access into the Oldham area without the need for a reversal in Rochdale?

That's a quite plausible question. The L&Y seemed to be keen on building triangular junctions at similar locations. For example south of Rochdale at Castleton, or with both the Blackburn and Bury lines at Bolton, or with the Copy Pit line at Todmorden. This is understandable, given the L&Y would need to shuttle local goods trains around between all the various industrial towns in Lancashire in Victorian times.

It looks like the north-to-east chord with the line to Shaw & Crompton was never actually built at Rochdale, but this does not answer the question whether it was ever considered or formally proposed.

John Marshall's volumes on The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway are usually a reliable source for this sort of info, but he makes no mention.

There were two Acts of Parliament involved in authorisation of the Oldham - Rochdale line:-

• Oldham Alliance Railway Act, 1847 (10 & 11 Vict. cap. ccxxxii) 22/7/1847
• Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Rochdale and Royton Branches) Act, 1859 (22 & 23 Vict. cap. cxxix) 13/8/1859

Shortage of capital post-Railway Mania prevented start of any work authorised by the first Act, but the subsequent one did result in the Oldham Mumps - Rochdale section being constructed and opened.

Inspection of these Acts would show whether the north-to-east chord was ever authorised, even though it was never built. Unfortunately these Local Acts are not available on-line, although the Parliamentary Archive does say that hard copy compilations should be accessible via larger reference libraries, plus the copyright libraries (British Library, National Library of Wales, Bodleian at Oxford and the UL at Cambridge).

 

[Senex]

That's a quite plausible question. The L&Y seemed to be keen on building triangular junctions at similar locations. For example south of Rochdale at Castleton, or with both the Blackburn and Bury lines at Bolton, or with the Copy Pit line at Todmorden. This is understandable, given the L&Y would need to shuttle local goods trains around between all the various industrial towns in Lancashire in Victorian times.

It looks like the north-to-east chord with the line to Shaw & Crompton was never actually built at Rochdale, but this does not answer the question whether it was ever considered or formally proposed.

John Marshall's volumes on The Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway are usually a reliable source for this sort of info, but he makes no mention.

There were two Acts of Parliament involved in authorisation of the Oldham - Rochdale line:-

• Oldham Alliance Railway Act, 1847 (10 & 11 Vict. cap. ccxxxii) 22/7/1847
• Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Rochdale and Royton Branches) Act, 1859 (22 & 23 Vict. cap. cxxix) 13/8/1859

Shortage of capital post-Railway Mania prevented start of any work authorised by the first Act, but the subsequent one did result in the Oldham Mumps - Rochdale section being constructed and opened.

Inspection of these Acts would show whether the north-to-east chord was ever authorised, even though it was never built. Unfortunately these Local Acts are not available on-line, although the Parliamentary Archive does say that hard copy compilations should be accessible via larger reference libraries, plus the copyright libraries (British Library, National Library of Wales, Bodleian at Oxford and the UL at Cambridge).

The L&Y official list of its parliamentary powers (including those granted but not exercised) makes no mention of any north-to-east curve. It might be interesting to know if there was any talk at an earlier stage about such a curve, and whether such a link possibly even made it as far as the Bill but was then dropped for some reason. I've only seen a summary of the 1847 Act, but that refers just to a junction with the M&L at Rochdale 10 chains north-east of the station.

 

[Taunton]

The Stockport-Stalybridge line had a decent, normally hourly, service until quite recent times (1980s?), as it was the only passenger link between the networks north and south of Manchester until more recent alterations, it was needed for journeys like Crewe to Leeds. I think the Manchester tram between the stations was the justification for its ending. In addition, there were various longer distance services which used it, the best known being the longstanding York to Swansea (later just Shrewsbury) overnight TPO. Until the 1966 electrification a couple of Euston services per day detached carriages at Stockport for Manchester Victoria.

The LNWR route Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds was one of those oddball lines which had a short stretch of a different company line in the middle - from Manchester Vic to Stalybridge was L&Y, who did the local service. Obviously swept away with the 1923 grouping, or actually not, because right to the mid-1960s the through services only served Exchange in Manchester, while the stoppers went from Victoria. I think probably more than half the substantial freight coming from Leeds over Standedge turned south at Stalybridge and went to by this line Crewe etc rather than continue to Manchester.

 

[edwin_m]

The Stockport-Stalybridge line had a decent, normally hourly, service until quite recent times (1980s?), as it was the only passenger link between the networks north and south of Manchester until more recent alterations, it was needed for journeys like Crewe to Leeds. I think the Manchester tram between the stations was the justification for its ending. In addition, there were various longer distance services which used it, the best known being the longstanding York to Swansea (later just Shrewsbury) overnight TPO. Until the 1966 electrification a couple of Euston services per day detached carriages at Stockport for Manchester Victoria.

I'm pretty sure it was part of the big changes triggered by the Windsor Link and the Castlefield Corridor improvements in the late 1980s, which introduced hourly or better services from Stockport to Liverpool and Blackpool and in particular from Piccadilly to Leeds. Hence there was no need to change at Stalybridge. Metrolink enabled these changes by removing the frequent Altrincham service from the Castlefield Corridor.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Vaguely remember attempting to catch a weekday 4.00 p.m. (ish) Stockport->Stalybridge service (calling at Reddish South) in the late 1980s, but missing the connection and so having to get a bus to Reddish South instead.

If, I rightly recall, the service provision from Stockport at the time, was slightly more than once a week.

Without (hopefully) dragging this thread too far off topic, is anyone able to summarise the service provision over the years between Stockport and Guide Bridge / Stalybridge (or indeed, vice-versa)?

 

[Bevan Price]

Vaguely remember attempting to catch a weekday 4.00 p.m. (ish) Stockport->Stalybridge service (calling at Reddish South) in the late 1980s, but missing the connection and so having to get a bus to Reddish South instead.

If, I rightly recall, the service provision from Stockport at the time, was slightly more than once a week.

Without (hopefully) dragging this thread too far off topic, is anyone able to summarise the service provision over the years between Stockport and Guide Bridge / Stalybridge (or indeed, vice-versa)?

The Stockport - Stalybridge service was only cut to "bare minimum" levels when the Trans Pennine services were diverted via Warrington Central & Manchester Piccadilly in the mid to late 1980s. "They" decided the service was not really necessary because passengers from Stockport (& South thereof) for Stalybridge (& beyond) could make connections at Manchester Piccadilly, instead of having to cross to Manchester Victoria.

 

[edwin_m]

The Stockport - Stalybridge service was only cut to "bare minimum" levels when the Trans Pennine services were diverted via Warrington Central & Manchester Piccadilly in the mid to late 1980s. "They" decided the service was not really necessary because passengers from Stockport (& South thereof) for Stalybridge (& beyond) could make connections at Manchester Piccadilly, instead of having to cross to Manchester Victoria.

I think it was always more about passengers from south of Stockport to north/east of Stalybridge, replacing the through journeys that had operated since LNWR days but, as various posters have mentioned, gradually reduced to nothing by the mid-60s. Continuing one stop to Piccadilly and one change to board the onward service one stop sooner would nearly always be quicker than two changes separated by a local service making multiple stops.

I recall frequently being driven to Stalybridge as a child from where we lived in Saddleworth, to meet or see off my grandmother who came on the train from Watford and changed at Stockport. I remember the gas lamps being lit at Stalybridge, which had a full set of buildings on the island platform at the time, and the platform staff advising us on whether the Stockport would use the bay as normal or run into the main platform depending on whether the "express" was running early or late (presumably a Manchester-Leeds). Later I did the journey myself with various relatives. This would have been from about 1970 to 1975, after which it was decided the change was a bit much for her and we drove to Piccadilly instead.

 

[Revaulx]

Maybe 400yd from the Town Hall, somewhat uphill, and further from the Market. I'm too young to remember Oldham before the destruction in the 70s but the land north of Central had been truly part of the town centre it wouldn't have been bulldozed to make the bypass. Certainly after that happened the remaining station at Mumps (same distance or slightly further from most of the centre) felt incredibly distant through a horrible subway.

Thanks for this. I’ve only been familiar with the geography since moving to Saddleworth in the 90s. Was Oldham Central closed because its site was needed for the by-pass, or did Mumps benefit from better passenger numbers?

My normal reaction to seeing photos of long-closed stations, even unglamorous ones, is “What a shame I never got to visit it then”. With the Oldham stations it’s “What a dump”

 

[Revaulx]

The LNWR route Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds was one of those oddball lines which had a short stretch of a different company line in the middle - from Manchester Vic to Stalybridge was L&Y, who did the local service. Obviously swept away with the 1923 grouping, or actually not, because right to the mid-1960s the through services only served Exchange in Manchester, while the stoppers went from Victoria. I think probably more than half the substantial freight coming from Leeds over Standedge turned south at Stalybridge and went to by this line Crewe etc rather than continue to Manchester.

Heaton Lodge to Ravensthorpe through Mirfield was L&Y as well. Part of the original Calder Valley main line.

As you say, the 1923 grouping swept hardy anything away, particularly in the LMS. Compare that with the SER/LCD coming together (not even a merger) in 1899, where the building of the Chislehurst connections was used as an opportunity to utilise their London terminals in a much more rational way.

 

[edwin_m]

Thanks for this. I’ve only been familiar with the geography since moving to Saddleworth in the 90s. Was Oldham Central closed because its site was needed for the by-pass, or did Mumps benefit from better passenger numbers?

My normal reaction to seeing photos of long-closed stations, even unglamorous ones, is “What a shame I never got to visit it then”. With the Oldham stations it’s “What a dump”

Since the tracks remained after the bypass opened, I assume they could have kept at least the platforms at Central with little if any change to the bypass route if they'd wanted to. Had the Ashton or Greenfield lines remained open then that would have been the obvious choice as Clegg Street was close enough to be one station for passenger interchange and operational purposes, but Mumps was less close to Glodwick Road.

Particularly after reading earlier posts I've been trying to understand why Central was closed and Mumps was kept. Possibly because Mumps had a bay platform, which was used for terminating services until removed sometime in the 90s, whereas Central only had two through platforms. The other reason might have been because most of the places within walking distance of Central were also walkable from Mumps or Werneth, but closing Mumps would have taken a larger area out of walking distance from any station.

 

[Revaulx]

Since the tracks remained after the bypass opened, I assume they could have kept at least the platforms at Central with little if any change to the bypass route if they'd wanted to. Had the Ashton or Greenfield lines remained open then that would have been the obvious choice as Clegg Street was close enough to be one station for passenger interchange and operational purposes, but Mumps was less close to Glodwick Road.

Particularly after reading earlier posts I've been trying to understand why Central was closed and Mumps was kept. Possibly because Mumps had a bay platform, which was used for terminating services until removed sometime in the 90s, whereas Central only had two through platforms. The other reason might have been because most of the places within walking distance of Central were also walkable from Mumps or Werneth, but closing Mumps would have taken a larger area out of walking distance from any station.

Interesting. I suppose Mumps’ more generous layout would also have been better for handling parcels traffic, which would still have been significant in the mid/late 60s.

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting. I suppose Mumps’ more generous layout would also have been better for handling parcels traffic, which would still have been significant in the mid/late 60s.

It was so significant that there was a huge parcels depot near Clegg Street. I think it was because many of the cotton mills were re-purposed as mail order warehouses in the 60s.

Excluding personal recollection from when I lived there in the 70s, most of my knowledge of these routes comes from the book "Delph to Oldham and Ashton" by Goddard and Wells, Foxline publications, ISBN 1-870119-82-7.

 

[Bevan Price]

Thanks for this. I’ve only been familiar with the geography since moving to Saddleworth in the 90s. Was Oldham Central closed because its site was needed for the by-pass, or did Mumps benefit from better passenger numbers?

My normal reaction to seeing photos of long-closed stations, even unglamorous ones, is “What a shame I never got to visit it then”. With the Oldham stations it’s “What a dump”

Oldham Central was closed in the 1960s, long before the by-pass came into existence. Presumably someone decided that Oldham did not need 3 stations (Clegg St. & Glodwick Rd. had already closed), but I am not sure why they chose Central instead of Werneth or Mumps.