Query re status of line in Croatia

[LNW-GW Joint]

A book -- from long ago now, but reckonably still illuminating and full of interest -- in my opinion, worth recommending: Black Lamb and Grey Falcon, by Rebecca West -- a pretty lengthy tome, being the author's findings from extensive travels which she made in Yugoslavia in the late 1930s. I'd reckon it highly readable, and covering numerous topics and aspects re the country (plainly then as ever, politically and ethnically a dysfunctional one). I read it long ago; am not politically-minded, and a lot of the finer points of the political stuff therein, went over my lead and / or are long forgotten -- but I'd reckon the book fascinating on many levels. ("It came to pass" that of the region's varied peoples, the author found herself most in sympathy with the Serbs -- though by no means considering them to be invariably in the right in all things.)

I must find a copy - it's always been out of print when I've looked...

All the states, even Bosnia, can point to a "golden age" when they were masters of the region in the distant past.
Nationalism makes them want to re-establish Greater this or that, and not accept the sovereignty of others.
They also all have a "warrior culture" to resist outside incursions and protect their "narod" (tribe).
Life was more stable when a large multi-ethnic imperium controlled things, but doesn't work so well in a power vacuum.

You can see similar attitudes in places like Ukraine, the Caucasus, and the near east.

But a fascinating region, with all its quirks.
Mostly, over the years the UK has supported the Serbs and Greeks, and also the Ottomans, against the Austro-Hungarian, German and Russian influences.
We also played great-power politics in the area, mainly for imperial reasons.
Sorry, this all sounds all very profound I'm afraid, but history has its consequences!

 

[Calthrop]

I must find a copy - it's always been out of print when I've looked...

Consulting Amazon just now -- seems that they currently offer the book, in very small numbers, for £38 / £39 hardcover, £22 paperback (could find no mention of whether postage was extra) ! ...

 

[oldman]

I found this cartoon in Athens a few years ago, illustrating LNW's point, but I doubt if any of them would accept that they were tribes rather than nations. Nationalism has its consequences. By the way, I believe the big business-man also sells face-paint.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I found this cartoon in Athens a few years ago, illustrating LNW's point, but I doubt if any of them would accept that they were tribes rather than nations. Nationalism has its consequences. By the way, I believe the big business-man also sells face-paint.

Priceless!

 

[Netko123]

I'm in some puzzlement, re a particular stretch of railway in Croatia. Namely, the line from Karlovac to Sisak via Glina. After the break-up of Yugoslavia, this line -- running through an area particularly heavily affected by the horrors attendant on that break-up -- was for many years, out of use. I find nowadays, tantalising hints that it might be functioning again, including for passenger traffic (can derive from Google, no certain indication "one way or the other"). Would be very grateful if anyone knowledgeable about this part of the world, could let me know for sure about this line's current status.

In short, it's not functioning and probably will never be, in existing form.

Slightly longer version:

In Croatia, like many other places, railway infrastructure is owned by state, managed by transportation ministry, controlled by transportation safety agency and operated by state owned operator (in this case HŽ Infrastruktura). And a railroad line is defined not by existing infrastructure, but by being listed in appropriate law. In the last railway act reform in Croatia, few years back, they finally managed to kick that line out of the legislation, so it is not longer listed as railroad line. Or most of it, because they kept part of it till Petrinja station listed in the law (due to local pressure). So in the few last HŽ network reports, only the section Caprag - Petrinja is marked Out of operation.
This remaining part might actually be restored some time in the future, because it's only 10 kilometers long with 2 road crossings as major investments, and local government isn't hostile to it, even changing local zoning so that railroad could lead into Sisak proper without stopping in Caprag and having to change direction.
After that law came into power, operator donated remaining steel structures (mostly few remaining smaller bridges between Petrinja and Topusko) to a local NGO, and they "recycled" them.

Some time before that, there was a war, today we call it World War I. Few years before they finally managed to build railroad line Karlovac-Glina-Sisak. When building it, 2 decisions would determine it's future. First, route that was selected was weird, builders chose not to follow Kupa river. Route selected was as long as mainlines via Zagreb, with higher gradient (up to 1.7 - 1.8%) and tight turns, compared to totally flat and straight mainline routes. Second, they built a line to local, vicinal standards, lower speed, lower load. So line couldn't compete on transit traffic with mainline. And after WW1 ended, local bank and subsequently local economy found itself in dire situation. Between two world wars, it was still fairly used because forest railways and ropeways were tied to it, but lower usage led to lower maintenance which led to even lower usage and so on.

It would have been cut in 1960s, when first round of rail lines in Yugoslavia where being cut, had it not been army and it's bases on both ends of the lines. That made it "strategic" asset, but still no investments have been made in maintenance. So by the 80's, speed was limited from 5 to 40 km/h, minimal services, limited to 12-14 tons per axle, etc. If a couple of accidents didn't happen when delivering military equipment, it would stay that way before closure. But they did, so in the late 80s they overhauled section from Karlovac to army bases in Utinja, some 17 km or so of new track, ties, rails... When the war started next year, first thing on that line that got blown up, was a bridge over Kupa, longest on the line. It was located some 14-15 km from Karlovac, on the overhauled section. So some time after, being left with an unusable stub, Croatian railways lifted that remaining track and reused it elsewhere.
When the war ended on one side was a 15km gap, and the rest of the track was in terrible shape. Majority of rails were original ones, 100 years old... There was an attempt to clean up a line from Sisak up to Glina but with nonelectrifed line that goes to nowhere, and with so many other places needing money at the same time, and not the most competent management in charge, it was doomed to fail.

Given HZ have closed a few more minor bits and pieces to save money on maintenance I don't think it will re-open, at least not anytime soon.

The Croatian section of the Sarajevo-Ploče line is now closed on the Croatian side despite the Croatians having upgraded their side of the line not long before the Bosnians did! Now swish Talgos out of Sarajevo run no further than the border station of Capljina.

Metković - Ploče section is open and freight does run on it. Only HŽPP (passenger part of Croatian railways) stopped running trains on that part of network. Which, given that is isolated from rest of its network and that it only serves 2 places with less than 20K population combined, isn't that surprising.

 

[hexagon789]

Metković - Ploče section is open and freight does run on it. Only HŽPP (passenger part of Croatian railways) stopped running trains on that part of network. Which, given that is isolated from rest of its network and that it only serves 2 places with less than 20K population combined, isn't that surprising.

My mistake, I thought the whole section was closed. Was it upgraded for freight then rather than passenger traffic?

 

[Calthrop]

@Netko123: thank you for your "slightly longer version" -- read with great interest; very illuminating, though saddening.

It would have been cut in 1960s, when first round of rail lines in Yugoslavia where being cut, had it not been army and it's bases on both ends of the lines. That made it "strategic" asset, but still no investments have been made in maintenance.

Thoughts prompted in me by the above, from a more general perspective than re this particular line only: around the 1960s, and later, there was a general perception by those of us on the western side of Europe: to the effect that on the whole, Europe's socialist / Communist countries clung more tenaciously to the lesser lines of their rail networks, and continued to make greater use of them, than had come to be the case further west. I remember some four / five decades ago getting the impression, from what could be picked up from maps, timetables, etc., that at that time Yugoslavia appeared to have closed, at least for passenger traffic, more of its most marginal and rural standard-gauge branches, than the Soviet satellite nations had done. (The former and the latter were, after all, different entities; with different approaches to various things.) We were also aware in the later 1960s, that the Yugoslav narrow gauge looked to be definitely on the way out: long n/g routes with an important role, being scheduled for replacement by standard gauge; lesser n/g lines simply losing their passenger services or being abandoned altogether -- somehow, no matter what is the part of the world focused on, or its form of government, narrow gauge lines "getting the chop" tends to be found unsurprising (however saddening from the railway-enthusiast sentimental point of view).

 

[Cloud Strife]

With respect to Yugoslavia, I suspect the far greater levels of car ownership and individual wealth contributed to the decline of the railways there, combined with the immense post-war push to build a reasonable network of roads throughout the country. I wish I could find it now, but I have a copy of a map somewhere that shows just how poor the road network was after the war, something that almost certainly helped the Partisan cause during the war.

 

[70014IronDuke]

...

All the states, even Bosnia, can point to a "golden age" when they were masters of the region in the distant past.
Nationalism makes them want to re-establish Greater this or that, and not accept the sovereignty of others.
They also all have a "warrior culture" to resist outside incursions and protect their "narod" (tribe).
....

I don't think you can say that applies to Slovenia.

 

[MarcVD]

With respect to Yugoslavia, I suspect the far greater levels of car ownership and individual wealth contributed to the decline of the railways there, combined with the immense post-war push to build a reasonable network of roads throughout the country. I wish I could find it now, but I have a copy of a map somewhere that shows just how poor the road network was after the war, something that almost certainly helped the Partisan cause during the war.

And also a very strong competition from bus companies, taking advantage of this modern road network.

I was in Croatia two years ago, and we planned to leave the car at the last stop of our journey, in Zadar, and then go back to Zagreb by train. Pure nonsense. First of all, the rail line to Zadar is closed, reason unknown. Croatian railways run a connecting bus to Knin, where a train to Zagreb is available. Total travel time : 7 hours. Nobody uses it. Nobody in Zadar could even tell me where this bus is starting from. But from the bus station, a bus to Zagreb starts almost every hour, total travel time 4 to 5 hours. Those bus are offered by private, profitable companies. In south Croatia, most people say that the train is totally useless.

 

[Jamesrob637]

And also a very strong competition from bus companies, taking advantage of this modern road network.

I was in Croatia two years ago, and we planned to leave the car at the last stop of our journey, in Zadar, and then go back to Zagreb by train. Pure nonsense. First of all, the rail line to Zadar is closed, reason unknown. Croatian railways run a connecting bus to Knin, where a train to Zagreb is available. Total travel time : 7 hours. Nobody uses it. Nobody in Zadar could even tell me where this bus is starting from. But from the bus station, a bus to Zagreb starts almost every hour, total travel time 4 to 5 hours. Those bus are offered by private, profitable companies. In south Croatia, most people say that the train is totally useless.

Zagreb to Zadar took me just 3.5 hours of which only 3 and a few minutes actual driving on a clean and modern Flixbus on which I never felt unsafe at any moment. The motorway was only 2 lanes in each direction but I guess that's sufficient for now. Mind you it was June so maybe traffic levels would be higher now as summer holidays start. A railway would need to be at most 4 hours journey time - most people I know will take the train only if journey times are comparable to road.

 

[Netko123]

@Netko123: thank you for your "slightly longer version" -- read with great interest; very illuminating, though saddening.

Thoughts prompted in me by the above, from a more general perspective than re this particular line only: around the 1960s, and later, there was a general perception by those of us on the western side of Europe: to the effect that on the whole, Europe's socialist / Communist countries clung more tenaciously to the lesser lines of their rail networks, and continued to make greater use of them, than had come to be the case further west. I remember some four / five decades ago getting the impression, from what could be picked up from maps, timetables, etc., that at that time Yugoslavia appeared to have closed, at least for passenger traffic, more of its most marginal and rural standard-gauge branches, than the Soviet satellite nations had done. (The former and the latter were, after all, different entities; with different approaches to various things.) We were also aware in the later 1960s, that the Yugoslav narrow gauge looked to be definitely on the way out: long n/g routes with an important role, being scheduled for replacement by standard gauge; lesser n/g lines simply losing their passenger services or being abandoned altogether -- somehow, no matter what is the part of the world focused on, or its form of government, narrow gauge lines "getting the chop" tends to be found unsurprising (however saddening from the railway-enthusiast sentimental point of view).

I'll try to keep it short and on topic...
Yugoslavia did close a large number of rail lines in 1960s (and few years later) and in general didn't follow path like the rest of eastern Europe in terms of railroads. In Yugoslavia there was one federal corporation JŽ, that acted as a holding corporation of 6/8 member companies, each of 8 republics/regions had it's railroad company on it's territory. And each one had it's own independent management and plans, not necessarily compatible with others, and without strong central ministry or department that could micromanage. Also, unlike the it's neighbors, military didn't have a railroad branch or even railroad units of it's own - drawing on own WW2 lessons - so there was some flexibility even there.
Other thing to remember, while being declarative "socialist" country, in terms of business it was a weird cross between pure capitalism and local protectionism. There wasn't free market per se, a person couldn't start a factory or for large business to be privately owned, but neither was it party directed (with business being "owned and managed" by it's workers) - companies could do what they wanted with whom they wanted as long as everyone got paid and laws weren't broken. Every local county could set up it's own trucking or bus transport company, and that being a good job creator, almost all of them did. Also every existing factory or business could open it's transport department that could compete with everyone else, and since management was locally elected, often they would. Add to that ever growing number of personal cars, numbers of passengers and cargo being transported by rail plummeted. So, unlike Soviet bloc, rail in Yugoslavia had a fierce competition, and soon that led to losses - in itself strange for a nominally communist country.

Official reason for closures is rather prosaic, in beginning of 1960s inflation was in double digits (20-30%) and in 1966 they made a deal with IMF/WB. One requirement of the deal was rationalization of loss making railways. What got cut was a result of "compromise" between federal government, rail companies, military, republican and local government... And in complex arena of intraYugoslav politics and economics, things that were doomed were not always the ones that deserved to be. Easiest to cut were trunks of former cross border local lines, and then smaller local lines and narrow gauge, at time considered outdated. So that got cut, similar to Beeching cuts in the UK at the same time.
Now, there were numerous narrow gauge lines in Yugoslavia, and relatively large networks of 1000mm, 760mm and 600mm lines. 760mm network was specially large, spanning 4 republics, extensively modernized just before closure (both track and rolling stock), and would have probably survived just for the sheer size of network, except... Well, I personally blame NATO . In 1948 Yugoslavia split with the Stalin and the rest of eastern bloc, and made some secret mutual defense deals with NATO and most of it's members. That resulted in change of defense plans, with the strategy called "Bastion" being implemented. Recognizing that lowlands of Pannonia were vulnerable to massive Soviet armor invasion, plan was made that active defense of country should start south of river Sava. Large number of armaments factories was transferred to Bosnia and western part of Serbia, large military bases were constructed, etc. Plan was to defend until allied (NATO) reinforcements landed on Adriatic coast or came from Italy.
Alas, modern armor got heavier and wider after WW2 and 760mm lines couldn't support transport of such equipment. So a new standard gauge line Šamac-Ploče was hastily constructed, mostly parallel to existing n/g line, with general intent on keeping both operational. Even new stretches of narrow gauge were constructed to bypass new dams. But IMF deal ruined that, and once narrow gauge network was cut in the middle and separated from sea ports, with transloading costs being higher than direct truck haulage, fast demise of the rest of the network followed. Paradoxically, same IMF/WB financed purchase of new diesel locos and DMUs for the same 760mm network just a couple of years earlier.

 

[70014IronDuke]

I'll try to keep it short and on topic...

Not at all. Mods, please grant Netko a "Rambler's License" - Long Version

Yugoslavia did close a large number of rail lines in 1960s (and few years later) and in general didn't follow path like the rest of eastern Europe in terms of railroads. In Yugoslavia there was one federal corporation JŽ, that acted as a holding corporation of 6/8 member companies, each of 8 republics/regions had it's railroad company on it's territory. And each one had it's own independent management and plans, not necessarily compatible with others, and without strong central ministry or department that could micromanage. Also, unlike the it's neighbors, military didn't have a railroad branch or even railroad units of it's own - drawing on own WW2 lessons - so there was some flexibility even there. ...

Fascinating stuff. Especially the lack of military involvement with the national railway. This would never have been the case had Moscow been in control.

Now, there were numerous narrow gauge lines in Yugoslavia, and relatively large networks of 1000mm, 760mm and 600mm lines. 760mm network was specially large, spanning 4 republics, extensively modernized just before closure (both track and rolling stock), and would have probably survived just for the sheer size of network, except... Well, I personally blame NATO . In 1948 Yugoslavia split with the Stalin and the rest of eastern bloc, and made some secret mutual defense deals with NATO and most of it's members.

Did it? I mean yes, we know about the split with Stalin - but actual defence agreements, signed and all?
Obviously the West, US in particular, was trying to keep Yugo out of Soviet clutches - eg aid with GE diesel locomotives - but actual defence pacts?

That resulted in change of defense plans, with the strategy called "Bastion" being implemented. Recognizing that lowlands of Pannonia were vulnerable to massive Soviet armor invasion, plan was made that active defense of country should start south of river Sava.

Tough luck on Subotica, Sombor and Sbobran (love that name) then. Surely Novi Sad was not to be so readily sacrificed?

Large number of armaments factories was transferred to Bosnia and western part of Serbia, large military bases were constructed, etc. .....

So that's why they were so touchy around Banja Luka with foreigners.