Question about Class 158 and Class 170

[Neptune]

I worked the 158’s for many years on Northern Spirit/ATN services and from what I remember the tables were plastic but with a marble effect in first and wood effect in standard.

The seats were the same original 2+2 seats in both classes but with better cushions. They were a thicker padding in first (red seats) than standard (blue seats) And there was a swing door partition between the classes. There were 32 FC seats on a 3 car unit and 16 FC seats in a 2 car.

From what I remember it was a £3, £6 or £9 upgrade on Trans Pennine services to first depending on the distance you travelled and you got free hot drinks and biscuits. It was declassified on Calder Valley services.

It was a really classy refurb and totally altered the ambiance of the 158‘s.

We also got 4 ex Scotrail units with 15 FC seats in a 2+2 but these were a different type of seat. Also 158750 ex VXC with just 9 FC seats in a 2+1. This unit alone never gained TPE livery. These units remained unrefurbished until first took over and gave the seats the NS TPE style seat covers.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

the 158s were the pre-privatisation 'express sprinter'. they were designed for long distance Cross Country operation with Twin-Plug doors at either end of the coaches feeding vestibules into which automatic doors led to the air-conditioned passenger accommodation. opening hopper windows are provided on both designs. the 158s, having a gangway throughout and a top speed of 90mph was and still is popular with TOCs. the 170s evolved from first the 165/6s, which then evolved into looking back now is the half networker-half turbostar 'Clubman' of which the later builds of these created the familiar 170 front end. the 170s then came about at the turn of the millennium. doors were provided at 1/3 and 2/3 positions to ease station dwell times and they were not designed for long distance, cross country design, however some earlyanglia sets did include a miniature shop/ buffet. they were designed for inter-city, stopping services e.g Birmingham to Nottingham/Derby. no end gangway was provided as it thought the capacity in them was enough for no gangway, and to give a more pleasing, full width driving cab compared to the compressed cab of a 158. no opening hopper windows were provided. these sets must of course NOT be confused with the class 172/0s, as they have a mechanical transmission compared to the hydraulic transmission.

 

[sprinterguy]

they were designed for inter-city, stopping services e.g Birmingham to Nottingham/Derby.

To be fair all the earlier batches of units were ordered to work long distance regional services: London Marylebone - Birmingham, Sheffield/Nottingham - St Pancras stoppers, Cardiff - Nottingham, Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness.

 

[Sprinter107]

the 158s were the pre-privatisation 'express sprinter'. they were designed for long distance Cross Country operation with Twin-Plug doors at either end of the coaches feeding vestibules into which automatic doors led to the air-conditioned passenger accommodation. opening hopper windows are provided on both designs. the 158s, having a gangway throughout and a top speed of 90mph was and still is popular with TOCs. the 170s evolved from first the 165/6s, which then evolved into looking back now is the half networker-half turbostar 'Clubman' of which the later builds of these created the familiar 170 front end. the 170s then came about at the turn of the millennium. doors were provided at 1/3 and 2/3 positions to ease station dwell times and they were not designed for long distance, cross country design, however some earlyanglia sets did include a miniature shop/ buffet. they were designed for inter-city, stopping services e.g Birmingham to Nottingham/Derby. no end gangway was provided as it thought the capacity in them was enough for no gangway, and to give a more pleasing, full width driving cab compared to the compressed cab of a 158. no opening hopper windows were provided. these sets must of course NOT be confused with the class 172/0s, as they have a mechanical transmission compared to the hydraulic transmission.

The Midland Mainline 3 car 170s, had a buffet counter too in the centre car. It was called "Mms Bar" if i remember correctly.

 

[Sprinter107]

The class 159/0s had extra hopper windows added after a short tine in service. They are a slightly different design to the originals, its easy to pick them out from close up. Not sure about the later 159/1s

 

[Neptune]

The class 159/0s had extra hopper windows added after a short tine in service. They are a slightly different design to the originals, its easy to pick them out from close up. Not sure about the later 159/1s

The 159/1’s and 158’s have not had any extra hoppers added sadly.

 

[Sprinter107]

All the fleet shouldve followed the 159/0s really, the extra vents are nost welcome i should think.

 

[PG]

All the fleet shouldve followed the 159/0s really, the extra vents are nost welcome i should think.

AFAIK the hopper windows are fitted in case of air conditioning failure and the 158s were the first DMUs to feature air conditioning.

However BR by that time had several hundred Mk3 coaches (all air conditioned) without any having been fitted with hoppers.

So why the decision to fit the hoppers on the 158s? If any are left open (which can sometimes be the case) it interferes with the correct operation of the air conditioning thus increasing the likelihood of failure.

 

[LowLevel]

AFAIK the hopper windows are fitted in case of air conditioning failure and the 158s were the first DMUs to feature air conditioning.

However BR by that time had several hundred Mk3 coaches (all air conditioned) without any having been fitted with hoppers.

So why the decision to fit the hoppers on the 158s? If any are left open (which can sometimes be the case) it interferes with the correct operation of the air conditioning thus increasing the likelihood of failure.

Mk3 coaches had droplights and vestibule sliding doors that could be locked open.

The 442 units that had power doors had small emergency windows fitted to the doors for air con failure.

If the 158s and 166s hadn't been so fitted one of two things would have happened - a) they'd not have turned a wheel very often in summer or more likely b) the ROSCOs and TOCs would have been forced into a more effective permanent solution to the air con not working properly. It's only come to a proper head as far as I know once - one TOC during the long 2018 heatwave had pretty much every 158 it had parked up because the drivers and guards refused en masse to work on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Regarding hoppers, Virgin retrofitted their WCML Mk2 sets with hoppers (2 per side I think) because that aircon was so unreliable.

 

[LowLevel]

Regarding hoppers, Virgin retrofitted their WCML Mk2 sets with hoppers (2 per side I think) because that aircon was so unreliable.

They inherited a small number of the older version than their standard Mark 2F coaches - I think these were the ones fitted with hoppers. There weren't very many of them if I remember rightly. Unusual enough to make me go 'oh, it's one of those!' if I saw one while passing Oxley.

Edit - here is a photo of 6179 https://www.flickr.com/photos/68628359@N04/17211333526 which still exists which is actually a Mk2F which blows part of my theory out of the water

I do remember they were very few in number though.

 

[PG]

Thanks all for the replies and link to that photo. I'd never realised that any Mk2f coaches had been fitted with hoppers.

 

[notadriver]

I preferred the 170s to the 185s on the Edinburgh - Glasgow route. They are not as quick but the better seating and big windows made up for it.

I’ve always thought the 185s are superior to 170s in every way but maybe not ?

 

[notadriver]

Delete please

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The 159/1’s and 158’s have not had any extra hoppers added sadly.

All the fleet shouldve followed the 159/0s really, the extra vents are nost welcome i should think.

It's often said on here that the SWR units have more reliable aircon than the rest, yet now it seems that those units are better because they have extra hoppers fitted. Surely both of these things can't be true?

Or is it that the landed gentry of Wiltshire and Dorset get a "belt and braces" approach while the peasants from the shires are stuck in our (sweaty) underpants?

 

[PG]

It's often said on here that the SWR units have more reliable aircon than the rest, yet now it seems that those units are better because they have extra hoppers fitted. Surely both of these things can't be true?

IIRC the ex-SWT fleet had a different aircon fitted at some point after the original refrigerant was no longer available for environmental reasons hence their superior performance (aircon wise).

I'm not sure if the extra hopper windows were fitted prior to the aircon being changed though that would make sense, and having fitted them it made little sense to remove them once the aircon was sorted.

 

[Sprinter107]

If i remember, the 159/0s werent very old when the extra hoppers were fitted. I thought it was a very good idea, as on a 158 on a very warm day with no air con, the 4 four hoppers fitted didnt really give a great air flow, the very reason i suppose that the 159/0s had theirs fitted.

 

[delt1c]

AFAIK the hopper windows are fitted in case of air conditioning failure and the 158s were the first DMUs to feature air conditioning.

However BR by that time had several hundred Mk3 coaches (all air conditioned) without any having been fitted with hoppers.

So why the decision to fit the hoppers on the 158s? If any are left open (which can sometimes be the case) it interferes with the correct operation of the air conditioning thus increasing the likelihood of failure.

Some Mk2f’s were also fitted with emergency opening windows. They were used predominantly on the Euston Birmingham service

 

[hexagon789]

Regarding hoppers, Virgin retrofitted their WCML Mk2 sets with hoppers (2 per side I think) because that aircon was so unreliable.

Which surprised me given that they had the most reliable system of all the air-con Mk2s. The Ds and Es had effectively a pressure-ventilation system with an air-conditioner on top, the Fs had a full air-control system which is believe was the basis for the Mk3 system.

Perhaps the fact they were going to be withdrawn and their age (possibly issues getting parts) meant it was easier to fit emergency hoppers than spend money maintaining the air-con any more so than was needed at a basic level?

I’ve always thought the 185s are superior to 170s in every way but maybe not ?

I assume that was a typo and they meant 385s, given that 185s have never operated the E-G

 

[edwin_m]

It's often said on here that the SWR units have more reliable aircon than the rest, yet now it seems that those units are better because they have extra hoppers fitted. Surely both of these things can't be true?

Or is it that the landed gentry of Wiltshire and Dorset get a "belt and braces" approach while the peasants from the shires are stuck in our (sweaty) underpants?

In the past SWT has shown much better reliability for many of their fleets than other operators, particularly the 159/158s, and this continues to some extent under SWR. This may be partly because they seemed to give fleet maintenance particular attention but also because the 159s are maintained at a dedicated depot, which they pass every few hours and it's usually possible to take a faulty unit out of service next time it goes through Salisbury. Being to a large extent a commuter route there are also units free during the day under maintenance, or able to go into service to swap out a faulty unit. Most other operators' 158s spend all day in traffic bouncing around an extended network so don't get that sort of TLC.

The 168/170 started a completely different approach to aircon, with most of the complicated stuff being in a roof-mounted "pod" which can be swapped out bodily if necessary. Even if one fails, there is a second one in each coach so although it's then noticeably warmer towards one end the temperature doesn't become intolerable.

 

[43096]

IIRC the ex-SWT fleet had a different aircon fitted at some point after the original refrigerant was no longer available for environmental reasons hence their superior performance (aircon wise).

The majority of the 158s have had their aircon replaced with the Liebherr system over the years. Like any other system aircon system it needs to be maintained and it seems many TOCs didn't bother; essentially it needs an annual service which is best done in spring. SWT did and I think had someone at Salisbury dedicated to HVAC (heating, ventilation, aircon) work who did the maintenance on the aircon in the spring and heating in the autumn. In between would be attending to faults and failures. That's how it should be done, but I doubt the other TOCs bothered.

 

[PG]

The majority of the 158s have had their aircon replaced with the Liebherr system over the years. Like any other system aircon system it needs to be maintained and it seems many TOCs didn't bother; essentially it needs an annual service which is best done in spring. SWT did and I think had someone at Salisbury dedicated to HVAC (heating, ventilation, aircon) work who did the maintenance on the aircon in the spring and heating in the autumn. In between would be attending to faults and failures. That's how it should be done, but I doubt the other TOCs bothered.

Presumably someone in SWT (Graham Eccles? or Tim Shoveller?) must have decided that it was something (HVAC) that had a benefit (for the company) in being kept in proper working order even if it meant employing someone at Salisbury to do it.
As you suggest it seems likely that other TOCs did not see a benefit so didn't bother.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably someone in SWT (Graham Eccles? or Tim Shoveller?) must have decided that it was something (HVAC) that had a benefit (for the company) in being kept in proper working order even if it meant employing someone at Salisbury to do it.
As you suggest it seems likely that other TOCs did not see a benefit so didn't bother.

I imagine the MD of TOC X genuinely believes they should provide trains with working aircon. I think it's more about expecting the fleet to be run to a budget that doesn't allow for such things as dedicated staff or doesn't allow the trains to be on depot long enough to receive specialist attention, not an actual policy of neglect.

 

[LowLevel]

I imagine the MD of TOC X genuinely believes they should provide trains with working aircon. I think it's more about expecting the fleet to be run to a budget that doesn't allow for such things as dedicated staff or doesn't allow the trains to be on depot long enough to receive specialist attention, not an actual policy of neglect.

Most other outlets disagree with you alas - it has been said numerous times over the years that if you were to remove the hopper windows on the 158 fleets the TOCs and ROSCOs would have to treat it as a priority rather than sort it as and when convenient.

On fleets without emergency windows it is treated the same as if the engine had gone bang - it might be nursed back to depot that day but then it doesn't move until it's fixed.

The other year I was on units that had failed air con for months on end until the contractor repaired them.

Traincrew are invariably told it is better to provide a 158 with no air con than no train at all.

It all came to a head one day at one TOC during the heatwave in 2018 when at least one driver collapsed with heat exhaustion en route and the drivers and guards started invoking Worksafe and refusing to board the train. On one afternoon it got to about 1700 hours and there were mass cancellations because nearly if not every 158 was parked up refused by the traincrew.

After that there was a big push to supply bottled water and provide a running update on which units required attention and when it would be.

The TOCs and ROSCOs have had 30 years to sort them out and settled for running them around as they are as it is cheaper. Liebherr systems are better but still won't cope with a busy train on a warm day.

I've had to instruct the driver to stop out of course before so I could move passengers who had collapsed into fresh air to revive them.

They're hateful things in the summer and they either need a full bottom end rebuild or scrapping.

 

[Mikey C]

Most other outlets disagree with you alas - it has been said numerous times over the years that if you were to remove the hopper windows on the 158 fleets the TOCs and ROSCOs would have to treat it as a priority rather than sort it as and when convenient.

On fleets without emergency windows it is treated the same as if the engine had gone bang - it might be nursed back to depot that day but then it doesn't move until it's fixed.

That makes sense logically

It's like my car where the aircon isn't working at the moment (the gas needs repumping) but (leaving aside the current lockdown situation) isn't a priority as I still have normal fresh air ventilation and can open the window, so I'll wait for its next service in June. If the aircon was the ONLY fresh air I could get inside, I would get it sorted straight away