Question about Class 55 locomotive "Deltic"

[GrimShady]

Getting back to the Deltics. I've often wondered if a modern version could be built for Pax workings. A Type 5 with RA5/SEPEX (other modern version)/125mph and high ETH value should be possible.

Surely we can build smaller medium speed diesels fitted in pairs with a similar output?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I have a question too...in the late 1960's (or 1970), I caught the first train of the day from St. Neot's to Kings Cross with my father, it may have been the occasion we went to the Barry scrapyard. I paid little attention to diesels, but I couldn't help but notice that it was a Deltic (rather than a Brush type 2) that appeared (on the up slow) hauling a rake of non-corridor suburban stock, probably no more than six. i recall that we sat in a compartment in the first coach, and I couldn't help but marvel at the sound and the feeling of power, it seemed to be toying with such a meagre load! Question....why would it have been on this train? (I think it was all stations Peterborough -Hitchin then non-stop) Surely it was not a regular turn, or had it somehow ended up in Peterborough and it was a convenient way of returning it to Finsbury Park depot?

 

[pdeaves]

Question....why would it have been on this train? (I think it was all stations Peterborough -Hitchin then non-stop) Surely it was not a regular turn, or had it somehow ended up in Peterborough and it was a convenient way of returning it to Finsbury Park depot?

Possibly the return portion of a running in turn? Some local trains around Swindon had some weird and wonderful wacky locos (compared to the 'proper' booked stock) sent out from the works for running in/testing.

 

[Cowley]

Possibly the return portion of a running in turn? Some local trains around Swindon had some weird and wonderful wacky locos (compared to the 'proper' booked stock) sent out from the works for running in/testing.

I wondered if it was a short notice replacement for the usual 31?
Whatever the cause was, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a photo of a Deltic on suburban stock.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It would have probably been a repaired failure working off Peterborough SP on it’s way back to London, either for traffic or FP depot or it would have been a restricted loco (one engine, no boiler, etc, etc) being used on Local only turns. Bit desperate to use them on a class 2 stopper though.

Doncaster running in turns were usually undertaken on northbound trains and Finsbury Park usually used the Cambridge workings as their loaded daytime test runs for locos. If a loco had to ridden LE, it would usually go out either to Peterborough or Cambridge. I went to Peterborough a few times with the Divisional Technical Inspector to “help” fix a few locos.

Hitchin used to go out to Cambridge on test with the baby Deltics (they did up to C exams on them) but harvest time was best avoided if you had to open them up after being idle for some days. The Hitchin fitters used to go on about having to creep back up road through the fire that they had caused on the down working, hoping both the local farmer and the fire brigade wouldn’t notice them!

 

[43096]

Getting back to the Deltics. I've often wondered if a modern version could be built for Pax workings. A Type 5 with RA5/SEPEX (other modern version)/125mph and high ETH value should be possible.

Surely we can build smaller medium speed diesels fitted in pairs with a similar output?

Class 68 is the closest you'll get - Stadler will do you a 125mph version if you ask nicely.

 

[Cowley]

It would have probably been a repaired failure working off Peterborough SP on it’s way back to London, either for traffic or FP depot or it would have been a restricted loco (one engine, no boiler, etc, etc) being used on Local only turns. Bit desperate to use them on a class 2 stopper though.

Doncaster running in turns were usually undertaken on northbound trains and Finsbury Park usually used the Cambridge workings as their loaded daytime test runs for locos. If a loco had to ridden LE, it would usually go out either to Peterborough or Cambridge. I went to Peterborough a few times with the Divisional Technical Inspector to “help” fix a few locos.

Hitchin used to go out to Cambridge on test with the baby Deltics (they did up to C exams on them) but harvest time was best avoided if you had to open them up after being idle for some days. The Hitchin fitters used to go on about having to creep back up road through the fire that they had caused on the down working, hoping both the local farmer and the fire brigade wouldn’t notice them!

O/T alert...
I think I missed your post last Wednesday but I just had a good chuckle reading that last bit... Did those Baby Deltics settle down a bit though before being withdrawn as a non standard class in the end?
Some of them made it into BR blue and one was even retained by the RTC into the Seventies, so had they (Finsbury Park?) managed to get a tune out of them before BR gave up on them?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Their reliability and availability improved dramatically after rebuilding. Having them centred around Hitchin depot for operations also helped. 34G was a Depot that “knew” Deltics well.

The blue one was D5909 and it nearly didn’t make it out of Doncaster as the order to withdraw the class came at that time and therefore authorising the repair became protracted. D5906 and D5907 were withdrawn when overhauls/periodic engine changes became due and D5900/3/4/8 went when they required replacement engines.

D5901 went to the RTC at Derby in 1969, D5902 was almost through a C exam at Hitchin in late 1969 but was found to have loose tyres and the loco was immediately withdrawn. D5905/9 lasted until early 1971 when they were withdrawn with minor faults, part of the 1971 cull of classes.

The engines (and other parts) were removed from D5905/9 after withdrawal at Stratford DRS and it is the ex-D5905 power unit, no 388, that is now in the “new” D5910 at Barrow Hill.

 

[Cowley]

Their reliability and availability improved dramatically after rebuilding. Having them centred around Hitchin depot for operations also helped. 34G was a Depot that “knew” Deltics well.

The blue one was D5909 and it nearly didn’t make it out of Doncaster as the order to withdraw the class came at that time and therefore authorising the repair became protracted. D5906 and D5907 were withdrawn when overhauls/periodic engine changes became due and D5900/3/4/8 went when they required replacement engines.

D5901 went to the RTC at Derby in 1969, D5902 was almost through a C exam at Hitchin in late 1969 but was found to have loose tyres and the loco was immediately withdrawn. D5905/9 lasted until early 1971 when they were withdrawn with minor faults, part of the 1971 cull of classes.

The engines (and other parts) were removed from D5905/9 after withdrawal at Stratford DRS and it is the ex-D5905 power unit, no 388, that is now in the “new” D5910 at Barrow Hill.

Very interesting thanks Clarence Yard.

 

[crosscity]

Their reliability and availability improved dramatically after rebuilding. Having them centred around Hitchin depot for operations also helped. 34G was a Depot that “knew” Deltics well.

The blue one was D5909 and it nearly didn’t make it out of Doncaster as the order to withdraw the class came at that time and therefore authorising the repair became protracted. D5906 and D5907 were withdrawn when overhauls/periodic engine changes became due and D5900/3/4/8 went when they required replacement engines.

D5901 went to the RTC at Derby in 1969, D5902 was almost through a C exam at Hitchin in late 1969 but was found to have loose tyres and the loco was immediately withdrawn. D5905/9 lasted until early 1971 when they were withdrawn with minor faults, part of the 1971 cull of classes.

The engines (and other parts) were removed from D5905/9 after withdrawal at Stratford DRS and it is the ex-D5905 power unit, no 388, that is now in the “new” D5910 at Barrow Hill.

I saw the two at Stratford in 1973 and didn't realise they had been there so long. Why did Stratford hold on to them?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Probably for other spares for D5901 until ER wanted rid of them.

 

[crosscity]

Probably for other spares for D5901 until ER wanted rid of them.

Sounds reasonable. Just to brighten your day, here is the photo:

17Apr73. Stratford. Baby Deltic D5909. [Slide_0149] by Ray, on Flickr

 

[Fleetwood Boy]

Sounds reasonable. Just to brighten your day, here is the photo:

17Apr73. Stratford. Baby Deltic D5909. [Slide_0149] by Ray, on Flickr

That photo reminds me of something I’ve pondered about the full fat Deltic. Why didn’t they have the standard EE cab design? 40s, 37s and Baby Deltics all have basically the same cab, and I believe EE offered BR a good price on the 37s if they continued the same design. Yet 55s were different.

 

[randyrippley]

That photo reminds me of something I’ve pondered about the full fat Deltic. Why didn’t they have the standard EE cab design? 40s, 37s and Baby Deltics all have basically the same cab, and I believe EE offered BR a good price on the 37s if they continued the same design. Yet 55s were different.

The Deltic cab predated the class 40. DELTIC appeared in 1955, before the class 40 was designed. It looks like it was actually based on the Victorian Railways L class of 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_L_class - which I believe was based on American copyrights.
Subsequent EE export designs showed progressively less American influence with the aggressive styling removed. You can see a transition from the big brash American styling to the class 40 via for instance
Queensland 1200 class of 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensland_Railways_1200_class
New Zealand DF class of 1954 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NZR_DF_class_(1954)
New Zealand DG/DF of 1955 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_DG_and_DH_class_locomotive
there was even a later model with a class 20 body and a single class 40 cab

My view is that during the 1950s EE simply deAmericanised the styling with each design, hitting a standard with the class 40

==edit==
Of course you have to understand that the eventual standard EE cab was arguably not an EE design anyway, but was actually EE's take on the Ivatt design of 10000/10001

==edit 2==
Maunsell corrected to Ivatt (see posts below)

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Deltic cab predated the class 40. DELTIC appeared in 1955, before the class 40 was designed. It looks like it was actually based on the Victorian Railways L class of 1953 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Railways_L_class - which I believe was based on American copyrights.

Patents, perhaps?
....

My view is that during the 1950s EE simply deAmericanised the styling with each design, hitting a standard with the class 40

==edit==
Of course you have to understand that the eventual standard EE cab was arguably not an EE design anyway, but was actually EE's take on the Maunsell design of 10000/10001

Wrong railway, wrong era, wrong locomotives, surely? (Well, it was late at night)
If you are thinking of 10200/1/2 you mean Bulleid/Raworth. The LMS diesels were Ivatt, at least nominally. I suspect there was someone a bit more expert than him on diesels actually in charge.

 

[randyrippley]

Patents, perhaps?

US vs UK terminology.
What we would regard as a copyrighted design the Americans would describe as a patent. However there may well have been genuine patents involved in the metal bending and shape forming process

Wrong railway, wrong era, wrong locomotives, surely? (Well, it was late at night)
If you are thinking of 10200/1/2 you mean Bulleid/Raworth. The LMS diesels were Ivatt, at least nominally. I suspect there was someone a bit more expert than him on diesels actually in charge.

You're right I meant Ivatt..........bit of a memory slip there. (too much gin) I'll correct it
Of course the class 40 design does owe a heck of a lot to the Southern trio, 10203 especially - but not the cabs

 

[Steamysandy]

These fabled workings from Edinburgh to Oban and back in fact ran on just two occasions, Sundays 2nd and 23rd August 1981, with the title "Festival Express". Although by this time farewell railtours had started to be organised these trains were never advertised for Deltic haulage as the decision to use a Deltic was only taken on 30th July! As such they didn't receive much enthusiast attention though the second trip did better in that respect than the first. The train was made up of a strengthened Mk3 push-pull set which included a Mk1 buffet and was worked on both days very aptly by 55021, "Argyll and Sutherland Highlander". No 37s or ETHELs had anything to do with these workings.

Much later (2008 for example) 55022 was used on a number of Railtours to Oban and Mallaig made up of Mk1 stock and tailed with a class37. I was on the Mallaig tour which started from North Berwick.Fondly remembered

 

[Gcambo]

The class 55 was designed in the 1950s. The Valenta didn't come into production until the 1970s, so no possibility of fitting it to a 55.
The Valenta was roughly based on the Ventura, as used in the class 29 and one class 42, but which by the early 1960s was only developing 1350 bhp out of a V12. So you'd need two V12 units to equal the power of a Peak or 47. Besides which Paxman engines had an awful reliability record especially in earlier use in the various modernisation plan type 1 locos.
Based on previous form, putting a Paxman engine into the HST was a heck of a gamble, whoever took the decision to do it was brave.

Don’t I know it, I was involved with the commissioning of the HST’s on the ECML in 1977 and worked with them until my retirement in 2007, the Valenta was prone to loosing coolant & high water temperature that would return the engine to idling speed until it had cooled down.
The loss of coolant was generally resolved when we changed all the aluminium exhaust box’s and othe pipe work for cast iron, cylinder head coolant transition bushes were another major problem.
The Valenta was designed for marine applications where they would run at a constant speed for long periods unlike rail where the engine speed would
fluctuate between minimum and maximum for hours on end.

 

[402OorWullie]

These fabled workings from Edinburgh to Oban and back in fact ran on just two occasions, Sundays 2nd and 23rd August 1981, with the title "Festival Express". Although by this time farewell railtours had started to be organised these trains were never advertised for Deltic haulage as the decision to use a Deltic was only taken on 30th July! As such they didn't receive much enthusiast attention though the second trip did better in that respect than the first. The train was made up of a strengthened Mk3 push-pull set which included a Mk1 buffet and was worked on both days very aptly by 55021, "Argyll and Sutherland Highlander". No 37s or ETHELs had anything to do with these workings.

According to 'Diesels In Scotland : W.J. Verden Anderson, a Tribute' by Keith Verden Anderson and Brian Stephenson, the class 55 was used last minute as there had been a last minute change from mk1 stock to a spare mk3 push-pull set. The Ethels were yet to be converted so 37s could not be used, and class 47s were too heavy for the line. I have seen a photo on Flickr with 37264 and an Ethel with the push-pull set in 1984. The photo in the book shows the train on its second excursion in 1981 on the return leg, formed of loco + DBSO + Mk3a FO + Mk3a TSO + Mk1 RMB + a few Mk3a TSOs behind. The photo on Flickr has the buffet coach (cannot tell if RBR or RMB) adjacent to the FO.

 

[hexagon789]

According to 'Diesels In Scotland : W.J. Verden Anderson, a Tribute' by Keith Verden Anderson and Brian Stephenson, the class 55 was used last minute as there had been a last minute change from mk1 stock to a spare mk3 push-pull set. The Ethels were yet to be converted so 37s could not be used, and class 47s were too heavy for the line. I have seen a photo on Flickr with 37264 and an Ethel with the push-pull set in 1984. The photo in the book shows the train on its second excursion in 1981 on the return leg, formed of loco + DBSO + Mk3a FO + Mk3a TSO + Mk1 RMB + a few Mk3a TSOs behind. The photo on Flickr has the buffet coach (cannot tell if RBR or RMB) adjacent to the FO.

Probably an RMB, the Aberdeen push-pull set used one until the Mk2d TSOT were converted