Question about freight train with steam locomotive

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pcrail

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Dear all,
anybody an idea about this picture?
There is a freight train with a steam locomotive passing a signal box.
Anybody an idea about the steam locomotive, the railway company and the location?

1625430735682.png
 
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6Gman

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Looks a bit London & North Western Railway (LNWR) to me. They had a liking for weird and wonderful 0-8-0 locos!

They also liked compounding, which might explain the two "lumps" on the front.
 

6Gman

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The oval numberplate should have told me it wasn't LNWR ! ;)
 

Gloster

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Could it be a Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway design? The signal box behind also looks like a L&Y type?

EDIT: Could it be an Aspinall Q1? They had the unusual cab front windows.

I think the Caledonian’s 600 class had uneven wheel spacing, with the gap between the front two pairs being wider.
 
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etr221

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I think it is an L&YR Q2 Class 30 (Hughes compound) 4-cylinder compound 0-8-0 - there were only 11, all gone by 1927, so rather obscure - the images I've quickly found are both broadside, which makes comparison difficult, but everything seems to fit.

(The CR 600 class were 2 inside cylinders, so not one of them)
 

DerekC

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That seems to have nailed the loco (a new one on me) and the railway, but the location is really hard. The only clues are the distant hills on the right of the photo and the parallel lines in front of them - they look like hedges.
 

Lloyds siding

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It so flat, it looks like the sea (as in Morecambe Bay), with low earth or rubble walls alongside ditches to make estuarine grazing. It's a small signal box, I'm guessing it may be Meathop signal box in what is now Cumbria.
 

Gloster

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It certainly could be Meathop as it fits details on the only other photo I can find and the NLS maps. The only things that make me hedge my bets a bit is the overhang of the roof and the lack of signal box nameplate on the roof.
 

etr221

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While I don't know, I doubt muchly it being Meathop - which was Furness Railway, not where I would expect to see an L&Y loco (did they work along there?); nor does it like right to me.

For a flat area on the L&Y, I would like at either the east (towards Goole, etc) or west (beyond Wigan) ends of the system. But I've no idea...
 

Gloster

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It could always be in early LMS days or there could be other explanations.

If it is acceptable to the OP and the mods I could try asking through the Cumbrian Railways Association.
 

zwk500

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Can anybody identify the consist? The tall signal post suggests a bridge or some other sighting issue behind the camera, although I suspect the track layout doesn't exactly give many clues. The telegraph wires appear to be perpendicular to the tracks, though instead of the more normal parallel alignment. It will probably need somebody with very specific local knowledge to put it all together.
 

30907

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I am having second thoughts about Meathop.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/125824977
The siding in the foreground faces the wrong way, and there should be a siding behind the train - I don't think the signal is far enough away. The map shows a small quarry on the opposite side to the box, which doesn't fit too well with the telegraph wires noted by zwk500. Lastly, Arnside Knott should be in the background - memory says that's more of a lump than the hills shown.

On the other hand, I can't locate it anywhere else! Not on the Lancashire coast (Hest Bank, Preston-Southport...) or near Goole - or the Dee Estuary....

As to the stock, is it a milk or perishables train? And does that help?
 
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Gloster

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The track layout at Meathop changed over the years, although it was never complicated. On the signalbox.org there are signalling layouts for both 1886 and 1950; the former has the siding rejoining the running lines through a single-slip at the nearest end of the layout.
 

30907

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The track layout at Meathop changed over the years, although it was never complicated. On the signalbox.org there are signalling layouts for both 1886 and 1950; the former has the siding rejoining the running lines through a single-slip at the nearest end of the layout.
The 1886 layout diagram shows the tall signal posts too.
 

pcrail

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It could always be in early LMS days or there could be other explanations.

If it is acceptable to the OP and the mods I could try asking through the Cumbrian Railways Association.
Yes, please, go ahead to ask the Cumbrian Railways Association if you wouldn't mind. This would be really great support.

Anyway, thanks a lot, to all commenters for this great community support.
 

WesternLancer

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Does anyone have any ideas what the low block structure next to the loading gauge might be?
 

Bevan Price

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Two photos of similar locos in Barry Lane's book on L&YR confirm it is one of the Hughes Class 30 variant running as a 4 cylinder compound. One loco converted from a 2 cylinder loco (built 1904), 10 new locos, built 1907, all withdrawn in 1926/27.

To me, it does not look like a seaside location, just a rather flat landscape, as found in parts of West Lancashire.
 

SouthernR

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There is a small photo of Meathop available to all on the CRA website - BRO035. It's very similar.
I'm still puzzled by the field boundaries (which is what I think they are) on the right. The Kent estuary is almost entirely mud here, with some natural salt marsh.
I think Arnside Knott would be out of shot to the right. It doesn't feature in the CRA photo.
 

WesternLancer

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There is a small photo of Meathop available to all on the CRA website - BRO035. It's very similar.
I'm still puzzled by the field boundaries (which is what I think they are) on the right. The Kent estuary is almost entirely mud here, with some natural salt marsh.
I think Arnside Knott would be out of shot to the right. It doesn't feature in the CRA photo.
I can't seem to get their site to generate that image either via the code you posted or via the search tool on their picture library site using the code or 'Meathop' - any chance of a link?

Ballast bin? Coal supply for the signal box, although usually they weren’t that generous?
Thanks - I guess that could be it, but indeed hard to tell for sure!

I guess if the location gets worked out more may become clear...
 

WesternLancer

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To access CRA photo -
SEARCH BY KEYWORDS (cumbrianrailways.org.uk) Enter 2 keywords "Meathop" and "signalbox", then click on Search.
OR
SEARCH BY REFERENCE (cumbrianrailways.org.uk) Enter Image Reference "BRO035", then click on Search.
I get "Your search for BRO035 has not found a matching record." - I also tried with the O changed to a zero just in case
same for any words I use as well

But I also note this at the top of the page so something their end or mine probably not working

"Warning: array_key_exists() expects parameter 2 to be array, null given in /homepages/24/d381338895/htdocs/sbir.php on line 12"

This is more promising (at least has some images!) but nothing arises from my efforts to use the search tool (probably my skill failings)

Having said that, I'm very impressed by the CRA's photo album in the featured galleries section on that page towards the bottom.
 

Whisky Papa

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Is the lower quadrant design of the signal of any relevance in confirming the Furness Railway location (rather than L&Y)? The signalbox itself certainly doesn't match my expectations of L&Y design - the local ones (Halifax, Hebden Bridge etc) don't have hipped roofs, but of course are rather large structures than the one seen here.
 

Gloster

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Most signals were lower quadrant until the grouping. Regarding my comment above about the signal box nameplate: it is possible that the FR affixed them further down on the ends and they were moved up to roof level in LMS days. It is just the upper windows on the box that don’t look quite right for Meathop, otherwise just about everything else (near enough) fits. There is a very similar photo to the CRA one on the Internet: google Meathop signal box and go to images.
 

zwk500

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Most signals were lower quadrant until the grouping. Regarding my comment above about the signal box nameplate: it is possible that the FR affixed them further down on the ends and they were moved up to roof level in LMS days. It is just the upper windows on the box that don’t look quite right for Meathop, otherwise just about everything else (near enough) fits. There is a very similar photo to the CRA one on the Internet: google Meathop signal box and go to images.
The only photos of Meathop that come up when I search have a chimney attachment and cantilevered Bracket Upper-Quadrant signal, which makes comparison difficult but there's a number of things about the roof and it's relation to the window structures that look off to me. The box itself looks to be the wrong height, the roof in the picture in OP's post has a bracket just about visible, whereas Meathop does not. The roof seems to be taller in OP's photo than those of Meathop as well. And the straight lines on the flat land in the background of OP's photos do not match with the mudflat estuary of the photos of Meathop, and isn't something that would change between eras.

I might be very, very wrong of course.
 

WesternLancer

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Most signals were lower quadrant until the grouping. Regarding my comment above about the signal box nameplate: it is possible that the FR affixed them further down on the ends and they were moved up to roof level in LMS days. It is just the upper windows on the box that don’t look quite right for Meathop, otherwise just about everything else (near enough) fits. There is a very similar photo to the CRA one on the Internet: google Meathop signal box and go to images.
Image here:

Line of hills has similarities, but no hedges (if that is what they are), which must call it into question.

Chimney on box would have had to have been rebuilt, but that is plausible. Foreground siding in a different position I think, but again could have been relaid I suppose.
 

zwk500

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The change to bracket is supported by the 1950 plan on this site, but the 1886 plan suggests the signal for the near running line is too close to the box, although it is possible it changed slightly before the photo was taken.

 
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