Question about Stevenage to "London Terminals" season ticket validity to Blackfriars

[Kupo]

Hello all,

For a few years I have been travelling from my home station of Stevenage to King's Cross for work - my workplace was near to King's Cross so I just walked from there. Just over a year ago our office moved to Southbank near Blackfriars train station and our company gave me an allowance which covered all of the extra cost of the added journey.

Essentially, I had my annual season ticket from Stevenage to King's Cross, then when we moved office I bought a second season ticket from St Pancras International to Blackfriars train station, and travelled on the Thameslink train from there. At the time I checked with staff who advised this was what I should do. My two season tickets are out of sync in terms of renewal.

I have just renewed my annual ticket from St Pancras to Blackfriars. However it hasn't escaped my notice that my season ticket from Stevenage to King's Cross allows me entry at the St Pancras Int'l ticket barriers AND at Blackfriars train station. I guess what I'm saying is that the barriers let me go through my whole journey on one ticket, but I'm wondering if it is actually ok to just have that one season ticket (or continue buying both). Obviously I wouldn't want to get in trouble if an inspector came on board, but I also don't want to pay for something needlessly (even though the company covers it). Or if you know another way of getting a cheaper overall ticket (bearing in mind my season tickets have different renewal dates) that'd be much appreciated. I find working out ticket routes quite complicated!

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

Your Stevenage ticket expires at King's Cross (with onward validity to Old Street and Moorgate only). You are not permitted to travel on Thameslink core with that ticket passing through Farringdon.

You could however purchase a Stevenage to London Blackfriars (not London Terminals) ticket routed VIA CITY THAMESL instead, for £98.30 per week (£3932 for 12 months).

 

[Hadders]

I agree with bb21. This often crops up (I think it's the third time in the last 2-3 weeks).

Your Stevenage-London Terminals ticket might open the barriers at St Pancras and at Blackfriars but it doesn't mean it's valid. One day you're likely to come unstuck which as a minimum would cause a large amount of inconvenience sorting out and at worst could result in prosecution. There are supposed to be through services from Stevenage to Blackfriars starting at the end of next year so I would expect more activity from a fares point of view.

 

[gray1404]

Would it work out cheaper for the OP to have one season ticket and do a change over when the next one expires?

 

[Hadders]

Would it work out cheaper for the OP to have one season ticket and do a change over when the next one expires?

I suspect it would. Depends on then the Stevenage-London Terminals ticket expires but I'd be tempted to let this one run out then get a changeover of the St Pancras-Blackfriars to Stevenage-Blackfriars.

 

[Kupo]

Thanks guys,

My Stevenage to King's Cross annual season ticket expires 5th Sep 2018, and my St Pancras International to Blackfriars season ticket expires 30 Oct 2018 (just renewed it).

Based on this, what would you say is the best course of action to save the most money? I haven't specifically heard of a changeover ticket - if I had a combined ticket, could I still travel on the same train from St Pancras as I have been doing (Thameslink through Farringdon)?

 

[Hadders]

Ah, shame you didn’t ask this question last week before you renewed your Blackfriars ticket.

I’ll let others do the maths but it might be best to get a refund on your St Pancras-Blackfriars ticket which if you do it before Monday would cost you the price of a weekly season ticket (£17.20) plus a £10 admin fee.

Then get your Stevenage season ticket changed to a Stevenage-Blackfriars one. It’s important that it’s done as a changeover as the additional fee payable is at a pro-rats rate. The expiry date will remain the same.

As concerns Routeing you can use any train from Stevenage to Kings Cross and any train from St Pancras to Blackfriars. You aren’t allowed to use the Underground with this ticket but you don’t need to use it to make the journey anyway.

 

[bb21]

I don't think there is any difference in validity in your case whether you have two separate tickets or just the one. You possibly lose the validity into Old Street and Moorgate with the through ticket to Blackfriars (because it is not issued to London Terminals) but I am not 100% on that.

For an explanation of a season ticket changeover, have a look at our Fare Guide. Changeovers tend to be better value towards the end of the validity compared to refund and reissues.

 

[GoByThameslink]

Also, there is the possibility that "London Thameslink" will come into use for stations to Peterborough & Cambridge in the same way as it has been valid on stations on the Midland Main Line to Bedford for years (decades?). If so, it will be a single price for stations St Pancras to London Bridge / Elephant & Castle (and presumably Kings Cross) inclusive. If this does happen, I guess it will be from the start of through running in May 2018

 

[bb21]

There is no point speculating.

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't think there is any difference in validity in your case whether you have two separate tickets or just the one. You possibly lose the validity into Old Street and Moorgate with the through ticket to Blackfriars (because it is not issued to London Terminals) but I am not 100% on that.

For an explanation of a season ticket changeover, have a look at our Fare Guide. Changeovers tend to be better value towards the end of the validity compared to refund and reissues.

Someone will need to confirm, But Welwyn Garden City - Blackfriars is valid to old street and Moorgate.

It is an acceptable route to go Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate - Farringdon - Blackfriars. It will often be pulled up by journey planners because of the direct trains.

Can’t see if why Stevenage wouldn’t have same routing points.

 

[paul1609]

Also, there is the possibility that "London Thameslink" will come into use for stations to Peterborough & Cambridge in the same way as it has been valid on stations on the Midland Main Line to Bedford for years (decades?). If so, it will be a single price for stations St Pancras to London Bridge / Elephant & Castle (and presumably Kings Cross) inclusive. If this does happen, I guess it will be from the start of through running in May 2018

As I understand it the most likely outcome is that once Thameslink and the Elizabethan line opens you will have a choice of a ticket to Kings X/ St Pancras or London zone 1 or london zones 1 to 6.

 

[Hadders]

As I understand it the most likely outcome is that once Thameslink and the Elizabethan line opens you will have a choice of a ticket to Kings X/ St Pancras or London zone 1 or london zones 1 to 6.

So the status quo then?

What about to Farringdon/City Thameslink/Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle routed ‘not underground’ that are currently available from many GM stations?

 

[Failed Unit]

So the status quo then?

What about to Farringdon/City Thameslink/Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle routed ‘not underground’ that are currently available from many GM stations?

That will be interesting- technically you should be able to break journey there if going to / from Moorgate. But will they amend the Moorgate route to via Highbury and Islington only with more calls at Finsbury Park.

 

[paul1609]

I understand that route not Underground tickets (in the Thameslink context), Thameslink only and Southern Only tickets will go as will London Thameslink and London terminals at least for tickets within the network area.

 

[Hadders]

I understand that route not Underground tickets (in the Thameslink context), Thameslink only and Southern Only tickets will go as will London Thameslink and London terminals at least for tickets within the network area.

Interesting that the fares from Stevenage to Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle are routed ‘via City Thameslink’ with those to Farringdon and City Thameslink remaining ‘not underground’.

It wouldn’t be right for the through fares to Farringdon and City Thameslink to be withdrawn if they remained to Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle.

 

[bb21]

Someone will need to confirm, But Welwyn Garden City - Blackfriars is valid to old street and Moorgate.

It is an acceptable route to go Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate - Farringdon - Blackfriars. It will often be pulled up by journey planners because of the direct trains.

Can’t see if why Stevenage wouldn’t have same routing points.

I don't quite understand. What do you mean by "direct trains"?

 

[Failed Unit]

I don't quite understand. What do you mean by "direct trains"?

When doing the WGC journey the planners will pull up the stopping services to Moorgate (direct) as part of the journey.

 

[Hadders]

When doing the WGC journey the planners will pull up the stopping services to Moorgate (direct) as part of the journey.

So the routeing would be Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate - Farringdon (via Underground) - Blackfriars. This makes sense as it avoids the need to change at Finsbury Park and Kings Cross but I don't think a 'not underground' ticket would be valid as you need to use the Underground between Moorgate and Farringdon (in the not to distant past there were Thameslink services between Moorgate and Farringdon so it would have been okay).

We could argue that the Moorgate - Farringdon section is covered by the inter-available rule but as far as I know the inter-available rule applies to tickets issued to 'London Terminals', and this ticket is issued to 'London Blackfriars'.

 

[Failed Unit]

So the routeing would be Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate - Farringdon (via Underground) - Blackfriars. This makes sense as it avoids the need to change at Finsbury Park and Kings Cross but I don't think a 'not underground' ticket would be valid as you need to use the Underground between Moorgate and Farringdon (in the not to distant past there were Thameslink services between Moorgate and Farringdon so it would have been okay).

We could argue that the Moorgate - Farringdon section is covered by the inter-available rule but as far as I know the inter-available rule applies to tickets issued to 'London Terminals', and this ticket is issued to 'London Blackfriars'.

Just put in a journey planner Stevenage-Blackfriars avoid London Kings cross. 1200 service tomorrow.

It has returned. Stevenage- Moorgate via Hertford.
Underground to Farringdon
Thameslink to Blackfriars.

Next option 1207 change at Finsbury Park and Moorgate

So that would suggest it is. Similar results happen from WgC

 

[alistairlees]

When doing the WGC journey the planners will pull up the stopping services to Moorgate (direct) as part of the journey.

Is the £12.20 SDS from WGC to BFR route City Thameslink intended to be valid via Moorgate / Farringdon (i.e. with a leg on the underground)? On the Worldline journey planner (aka webTIS) it doesn't show as valid for that route. It only shows as valid for a journey to Kings Cross, walk to St Pancras, then onward travel from there to Blackfriars. Which gives deeply unattractive journey times because of the 31 minute minimum interchange between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

 

[Failed Unit]

Is the £12.20 SDS from WGC to BFR route City Thameslink intended to be valid via Moorgate / Farringdon (i.e. with a leg on the underground)? On the Worldline journey planner (aka webTIS) it doesn't show as valid for that route. It only shows as valid for a journey to Kings Cross, walk to St Pancras, then onward travel from there to Blackfriars. Which gives deeply unattractive journey times because of the 31 minute minimum interchange between Kings Cross and St Pancras.

I don’t think it is intended to route Moorgate, I think the change time between kings cross and st. Pancras routes it that way on certain journeys. As you know reality is the change can be done in 10 mins, it is high frequency. So it is just delay repay claims that will cause an issue.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Just put in a journey planner Stevenage-Blackfriars avoid London Kings cross. 1200 service tomorrow.

It has returned. Stevenage- Moorgate via Hertford.
Underground to Farringdon
Thameslink to Blackfriars

Which journey planner are you using and which fare is it offering? The ones I've tried (Southern and Trainline) only offer either a Travelcard or a single to Zone U12, the latter being valid Farringdon to Blackfriars on Thameslink due to interavailability rules. I can't see how this is valid on a fare Stevenage to Blackfriars route VIA CITY THAMESL as the Underground journey from Moorgate to Farringdon is not an interavailable stretch (although it really should be in my opinion).

 

[alistairlees]

Which journey planner are you using and which fare is it offering? The ones I've tried (Southern and Trainline) only offer either a Travelcard or a single to Zone U12, the latter being valid Farringdon to Blackfriars on Thameslink due to interavailability rules. I can't see how this is valid on a fare Stevenage to Blackfriars route VIA CITY THAMESL as the Underground journey from Moorgate to Farringdon is not an interavailable stretch (although it really should be in my opinion).

Try Chiltern Railways (or any other Worldline one, like GWR). Unless you start fiddling around with the "via" options you can't get it to show a valid itinerary for the £12.20 SDS via City Thameslink though.

As you say, Trainline erroneously only offers an £11.20 SDS to Kings Cross plus a £3.00 single to Zone U12, combined to make a single ticket for £14.20.

 

[Hadders]

Stevenage - Blackfriars is routed 'via City Thameslink' rather than 'not underground' although it doesn't have a maltese cross.

When Crossrail opens it would potentially valid to travel Moorgate - Crossrail to Farringdon - Blackfriars (there will be an entrance to Crossrail's Liverpool Street station at Moorgate) as this avoids the Underground.....

 

[Failed Unit]

Which journey planner are you using and which fare is it offering? The ones I've tried (Southern and Trainline) only offer either a Travelcard or a single to Zone U12, the latter being valid Farringdon to Blackfriars on Thameslink due to interavailability rules. I can't see how this is valid on a fare Stevenage to Blackfriars route VIA CITY THAMESL as the Underground journey from Moorgate to Farringdon is not an interavailable stretch (although it really should be in my opinion).

The east coast one, £12.20 single offer. Route “not kings cross”. However distracting from original point most Stevenage people will travel via Kings Cross.

Have boarded at old street. Was asked how I got from Blackfriars. Responded with the truth - walked. They were happy enough so maybe even break of journey is ok. The question was about a season ticket after all.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I'm a bit confused as I can't reproduce the prices quoted by alistairlees nor Failed Unit on any booking engine. I'd like to have a go at explaining the anomalies, but I think we need full details of the exact itineraries and fares offered, maybe including a screenshot.

For what it's worth I've attempted to reproduce the itinerary quoted by Failed Unit in Post 20 (Stevenage to Blackfriars departing at 12:00 tomorrow, changing at Moorgate and Farringdon and arriving at 13:35). The attachments show my results: Trainline and Chiltern WebTIS offer a U-zone single at £17.20, Southern OrTIS and NRE offer a Travelcard at £24.60, and TrainGenius and VTEC couldn't find any fares at all for this itinerary.

 

[paul1609]

Stevenage - Blackfriars is routed 'via City Thameslink' rather than 'not underground' although it doesn't have a maltese cross.

When Crossrail opens it would potentially valid to travel Moorgate - Crossrail to Farringdon - Blackfriars (there will be an entrance to Crossrail's Liverpool Street station at Moorgate) as this avoids the Underground.....

Understa

Interesting that the fares from Stevenage to Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle are routed ‘via City Thameslink’ with those to Farringdon and City Thameslink remaining ‘not underground’.

It wouldn’t be right for the through fares to Farringdon and City Thameslink to be withdrawn if they remained to Blackfriars/London Bridge/Elephant & Castle.

Understand that anything beyond beyond St Pancras/Kings Cross will need zone 1. Anything beyond Blackfriars will be Zone 1 coming from the South. Note that its zone 1 not zone U1. Many point to point tickets will be withdrawn. Apparently some paper tickets will be at a premium to Key/Oyster. Its seen as a major fares rejig for the Southeast because a number of flows are expected to alter in a big way quite a long way out. For instance the GWR north downs services are expected to loose most of their Gatwick traffic that now connects at Reading to people travelling via Farringdon because of journey time/ frequency.

 

[Hadders]

Understa


Understand that anything beyond beyond St Pancras/Kings Cross will need zone 1. Anything beyond Blackfriars will be Zone 1 coming from the South. Note that its zone 1 not zone U1. Many point to point tickets will be withdrawn. Apparently some paper tickets will be at a premium to Key/Oyster. Its seen as a major fares rejig for the Southeast because a number of flows are expected to alter in a big way quite a long way out. For instance the GWR north downs services are expected to loose most of their Gatwick traffic that now connects at Reading to people travelling via Farringdon because of journey time/ frequency.

Details need to be published very soon as services are due to start running through the core from next year and people will need to make decisions about season tickets etc.

If there is an aspiration to alter flows then this needs to be considered in the price. For example:

Let’s say it’s £10 to travel from Stevenage to St Pancras but £12 to go to Zone 1 (eg Farringdon). Most people will say I’ll go to St Pancras and walk - this won’t alter the passenger flows and we’ll end up with a seriously overcrowded St Pancras that won’t be able to cope.

I really hope that putting services through the core works but I have serious reservations about whether it’s all going to work. Not just the train service but also the fares side of things. I await the Daily Hate articles about people with London Terminals tickets at Farringdon being Penalty Fared.

 

[alistairlees]

I'm a bit confused as I can't reproduce the prices quoted by alistairlees nor Failed Unit on any booking engine. I'd like to have a go at explaining the anomalies, but I think we need full details of the exact itineraries and fares offered, maybe including a screenshot.

For what it's worth I've attempted to reproduce the itinerary quoted by Failed Unit in Post 20 (Stevenage to Blackfriars departing at 12:00 tomorrow, changing at Moorgate and Farringdon and arriving at 13:35). The attachments show my results: Trainline and Chiltern WebTIS offer a U-zone single at £17.20, Southern OrTIS and NRE offer a Travelcard at £24.60, and TrainGenius and VTEC couldn't find any fares at all for this itinerary.

Here's a screenshot of a search for tomorrow from Welwyn Garden City to London Blackfriars, departing at 12.00 and without any via / avoid. It offers two options for travel for £12.20. Both involve the walk from Kings Cross to St Pancras.