Question for those who sell tickets

[pemma]

How often do you sell someone a different ticket or combination of tickets to which they originally asked for?

I'm just trying to work out how much impact forcing people to use a TVM at an unstaffed station instead of allowing them to buy from the first member of staff they encounter will have.

 

[A Challenge]

Further to the question, presumably the most common will be with no fare defined (that would just confuse people at a TVM) or wrong type (Off Peak Return for someone returning that day, [Super] Off Peak with evening restrictions being sold to return during the evening peak)?

 

[Clip]

How often do you sell someone a different ticket or combination of tickets to which they originally asked for?

I'm just trying to work out how much impact forcing people to use a TVM at an unstaffed station instead of allowing them to buy from the first member of staff they encounter will have.

As to the first question I am unsure what you are asking - is someone comes to the counter and asks for A to B that is what they get sold - this has been covered many MANY times already on here and staff are not obligated to go through the many differing options available to either reduce the price or increase validity.

Now staff I have managed in the past have been happy to do this if they have time and ive been happy for them to do so because it is good customer service but they simply do not have too.

 

[Haywain]

How often do you sell someone a different ticket or combination of tickets to which they originally asked for?

Reasonably often, but I spent most of my ticket selling time at an office where a significant percentage of the customers were overseas tourists. At an office without the tourist trade, less often.

I'm just trying to work out how much impact forcing people to use a TVM at an unstaffed station instead of allowing them to buy from the first member of staff they encounter will have.

Difficult to say, but a much more significant volume of tickets are sold online these days.

presumably the most common will be with no fare defined

Common? These were fairly rare in my experience.

wrong type (Off Peak Return for someone returning that day, [Super] Off Peak with evening restrictions being sold to return during the evening peak)?

These are the most common ticket buying errors, in my experience. However, it is worth bearing in mind that at the vast majority of stations a significant percentage of those travelling are making one of a very small number of journeys and tend to be fairly regular travellers, as a result of which they tend to know the ins and outs of tickets for their journey (speaking from my knowledge of ticket sales at the last TOC I worked for).

 

[Adam0984]

I think from a northern view it would be the duo. 2 returns to XYZ. Ask questions about time etc and they get a duo if that’s okay

 

[pemma]

I think from a northern view it would be the duo. 2 returns to XYZ. Ask questions about time etc and they get a duo if that’s okay

Or even a Duo instead of 2 singles.

 

[Wallsendmag]

It depends how many people in a day ask for a return from their destination.

 

[Haywain]

It depends how many people in a day ask for a return from their destination.

As in:
"I'd like a return please."

"Certainly sir, where to?"

"Here, of course!"

 

[Wallsendmag]

Or more usually at Newcastle “Can I have a return from Durham” when in reality they’re going to Durham

 

[LowLevel]

Depends where I am. On one or two routes there's a ranger ticket cheaper than the walk up fare that I will actively offer people.

On others there are particularly painful Anytime fares for some flows that with very simple splits give access to super off peak fares with a hefty reduction.

I usually save the latter for people who've boarded the wrong train with advances or whatever to save them being hit particularly hard - if they've trundled past the booking office or whatever on to the train then they get the full quoted fare.

I also sell group save and promo tickets to people who weren't expecting them on a regular basis.

 

[DelW]

As an aside, I'm often surprised by how many people appear to prefer using a machine.

As a typical example, on Monday afternoon I arrived at my local station to find around half a dozen people queuing in the rain at the two ticket machines out front (they're under a canopy, but the rain was so heavy it was splashing everywhere). Rather than join the end of the queue and get really wet, I looked inside the ticket office, which was empty (and dry) with a ticket clerk ready to sell me my ticket. Had the others not bothered to look (the door is only a few feet from the TVMs) or did they actually prefer to use them?

I make a point of trying to use the manned window whenever I can, on the use-it-or-lose-it principle.

 

[pemma]

It depends how many people in a day ask for a return from their destination.

At Northern stations people do buy a return from another station as they often have had no opportunity to buy a ticket until arriving at their destination and the RPIs just point them to the ticket office window.

 

[pemma]

As a typical example, on Monday afternoon I arrived at my local station to find around half a dozen people queuing in the rain at the two ticket machines out front (they're under a canopy, but the rain was so heavy it was splashing everywhere). Rather than join the end of the queue and get really wet, I looked inside the ticket office, which was empty (and dry) with a ticket clerk ready to sell me my ticket. Had the others not bothered to look (the door is only a few feet from the TVMs) or did they actually prefer to use them?

I make a point of trying to use the manned window whenever I can, on the use-it-or-lose-it principle.

Passengers collecting TOD are instructed to use the machine over the ticket office and at many stations those in the ticket office will only do TOD if there's no functional TVMs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

At Northern stations people do buy a return from another station as they often have had no opportunity to buy a ticket until arriving at their destination and the RPIs just point them to the ticket office window.

I am aware of that but we have a gateline and X/S fare machines. These people genuinely ask for a return from their destination.

 

[dcbwhaley]

As an aside, I'm often surprised by how many people appear to prefer using a machine.

As a typical example, on Monday afternoon I arrived at my local station to find around half a dozen people queuing in the rain at the two ticket machines out front (they're under a canopy, but the rain was so heavy it was splashing everywhere). Rather than join the end of the queue and get really wet, I looked inside the ticket office, which was empty (and dry) with a ticket clerk ready to sell me my ticket. Had the others not bothered to look (the door is only a few feet from the TVMs) or did they actually prefer to use them?

I make a point of trying to use the manned window whenever I can, on the use-it-or-lose-it principle.

I find the same at my bank: people queuing to use the ATMs whilst two clerks sit at the counter trying to look busy. In the smart phone/computer era interaction with other humans is becoming increasingly scary.

 

[pemma]

I find the same at my bank: people queuing to use the ATMs whilst two clerks sit at the counter trying to look busy. In the smart phone/computer era interaction with other humans is becoming increasingly scary.

With banks there's a general trend of people wanting to take cash out use ATMs and people wanting other things use the counters. Although, with most people being paid by BACS and being able to set up direct debits and payments in online banking that usually doesn't leave many people using counters.

 

[Merseysider]

As an aside, I'm often surprised by how many people appear to prefer using a machine.

Machines don’t argue with me about whether the combination of tickets I want to buy will be valid or not.

 

[Bantamzen]

I find the same at my bank: people queuing to use the ATMs whilst two clerks sit at the counter trying to look busy. In the smart phone/computer era interaction with other humans is becoming increasingly scary.

A lot of banks have drastically scaled back the numbers of clerks to a level where they may actually prefer customers to use ATMs over the clerks, so that the clerks are only involved in more complex transactions & queries. (That is the banks that aren't shutting down many branches so that there are no facilities in many towns now). After a while people just simply get used to using the machines over counters, which might go someway to explain this phenomena both in banks and at stations. I'll readily admit that if I'm at a major station I will instinctively head for an ATM before a ticket office, regardless of queue sizes.

 

[pemma]

Machines don’t argue with me about whether the combination of tickets I want to buy will be valid or not.

Indeed. At one Northern managed ticket office if you ask for a ticket from x to y one clerk will advise you there's an alternative cheaper option involving multiple tickets. If you ask one of the other clerks for that combination of tickets he reacts like you just insulted him.

 

[pemma]

A lot of banks have drastically scaled back the numbers of clerks to a level where they may actually prefer customers to use ATMs over the clerks.

As someone pointed out in a news report recently people choose ATMs as they are faster and less likely to make an error than a cashier but the same can't be said about self service checkouts in supermarkets.

 

[dcbwhaley]

With banks there's a general trend of people wanting to take cash out use ATMs and people wanting other things use the counters. Although, with most people being paid by BACS and being able to set up direct debits and payments in online banking that usually doesn't leave many people using counters.

Paying in coinage - which a lot of business still has to do - is the main thing that forces the use of the counter.
Nat West have a wonderful machine: you pour the cash into a hopper and it counts it and gives you a voucher for the amount: a voucher which, ironically, is not accepted by the ATMs so you still have the twenty minute queue at the counter.

Sorry: topic drift

 

[Bantamzen]

As someone pointed out in a news report recently people choose ATMs as they are faster and less likely to make an error than a cashier but the same can't be said about self service checkouts in supermarkets.

I'd say a TVM is way closer to an ATM transaction that a self-service checkout!

 

[pemma]

As to the first question I am unsure what you are asking - is someone comes to the counter and asks for A to B that is what they get sold - this has been covered many MANY times already on here and staff are not obligated to go through the many differing options available to either reduce the price or increase validity.

Now staff I have managed in the past have been happy to do this if they have time and ive been happy for them to do so because it is good customer service but they simply do not have too.

I'll give you a black and white example then. At 10:15am at Northwich ticket office one person might say "2 returns to Manchester please." As anyone manning that ticket office would be aware that Duo tickets exist to Manchester the response would almost certainly not be "That'll be £23" and would be "Are you going to be travelling back together?" If the answer is no then the following response would be "That'll be £23" and if the answer is yes the response will be "In that case you can buy a Duo which'll be £17.20" and the ticket clerk has then told the passenger exactly what they need to ask for next time.

Personally I think your 'issue whatever they ask for and don't ask questions or suggest alternative' approach is the main reason for arguments between ticket sellers and passengers. If a passenger was told on a previous occasion there's no off-peak day return available they might ask for an anytime return, even at an off-peak time. If the staff just continue selling anytime returns without pointing out off-peak returns have been introduced they are less useful to a passenger than a TVM which might explain why the scenario described by @DelW is happening at some stations.

 

[RJ]

At my rural outpost most of my sales are inboundary Travelcards. Many people ask for a day return to London, but they get a Travelcard because it is cheaper than a London Terminals or U Zones day return.

A lot of people pay a premium to avoid the ticket office as TVM sales of SDRs to and from London persist despite them being more expensive than a Travelcard. Many people do not know how to buy a ticket covering the Underground from the TVM so end up buying a set of tickets that cost a lot more than they need to pay.

Most children don't actually need a Travelcard so after asking the standard questions to establish the journey being made, I will issue a better value ticket.

A lot of people ask for an anytime Travelcard - I never work in the ticket office on weekdays before 0930.

I offer the market price for fares, but there are some situations where I'll suggest an alternative fare arrangements. There are a few cases where it makes sense to advise people to use Oyster or CPC to London and getting a ticket starting from there. On lines with competitive pricing like the WCML and on the GWR where the long distance fares policy out of Paddington creates major pricing discrepancies. There are also some situations where we are instructed to offer split tickets, such as if the customer holds a discount pass that entitles them to a reduction for part of the journey they are making.

I would say that more often than not, customers phrase their request in a way that if taken literally, would result in them unnecessarily paying more than required. Every station is very, very different though.

 

[yorkie]

I'll give you a black and white example then. At 10:15am at Northwich ticket office one person might say "2 returns to Manchester please." As anyone manning that ticket office would be aware that Duo tickets exist to Manchester the response would almost certainly not be "That'll be £23" and would be "Are you going to be travelling back together?" If the answer is no then the following response would be "That'll be £23" and if the answer is yes the response will be "In that case you can buy a Duo which'll be £17.20" and the ticket clerk has then told the passenger exactly what they need to ask for next time.

I wouldn't have worded your opening post like this...

How often do you sell someone a different ticket or combination of tickets to which they originally asked for?

... as I think that if someone asked for "two returns to Manchester" they are not asking for a specific ticket type/product, and so questions need to be asked to determine the best fare to ask.

For example recently York station asked a series of questions to determine the best ticket to sell for a customer travelling from York to Hull, which then determined the most appropriate fare out of the numerous options (ticket types are SHR, SVR, SDR and CDR not including the Duo, with a choice of route Not via Doncaster and Any Permitted), the whole process only took a few seconds.

A "different ticket to which they originally asked for" is a very different matter altogether, so I think your opening post was asking for something different to what you thought you were asking, which may explain why the responses were not what you expected.

 

[pemma]

I wouldn't have worded your opening post like this...

... as I think that if someone asked for "two returns to Manchester" they are not asking for a specific ticket type/product, and so questions need to be asked to determine the best fare to ask.

For example recently York station asked a series of questions to determine the best ticket to sell for a customer travelling from York to Hull, which then determined the most appropriate fare out of the numerous options (ticket types are SHR, SVR, SDR and CDR not including the Duo, with a choice of route Not via Doncaster and Any Permitted), the whole process only took a few seconds.

A "different ticket to which they originally asked for" is a very different matter altogether, so I think your opening post was asking for something different to what you thought you were asking, which may explain why the responses were not what you expected.

If it hadn't already been stated that a Duo (2 x returns but only valid if both passengers travel back together) can be cheaper than 2 x singles I would have gone a stage further in my most recent post to point that out.

There's also instances where a TfGM Wayfarer can be cheaper than an off-peak day return but they get a bit more complicated. For instance, for a pensioner with a Senior railcard it might be cheapest to buy an ordinary return while for one without a railcard it may be cheapest to buy a Wayfarer. One way one ticket office clerk dealt with that (with the old scratch off versions) was to tell a passenger who appeared to be well over the minimum age for Senior Wayfarer but hadn't mentioned having a railcard about a 'special blue ticket.'

 

[cactustwirly]

As an aside, I'm often surprised by how many people appear to prefer using a machine.

As a typical example, on Monday afternoon I arrived at my local station to find around half a dozen people queuing in the rain at the two ticket machines out front (they're under a canopy, but the rain was so heavy it was splashing everywhere). Rather than join the end of the queue and get really wet, I looked inside the ticket office, which was empty (and dry) with a ticket clerk ready to sell me my ticket. Had the others not bothered to look (the door is only a few feet from the TVMs) or did they actually prefer to use them?

I make a point of trying to use the manned window whenever I can, on the use-it-or-lose-it principle.

Tbf the ticket machine will give you the ticket you ask for, whereas the ticket clerk could refuse, make up rules etc.

 

[Taunton]

As to the first question I am unsure what you are asking - is someone comes to the counter and asks for A to B that is what they get sold - this has been covered many MANY times already on here and staff are not obligated to go through the many differing options available to either reduce the price or increase validity.

Well it was certainly the case back in BR days when staff were REQUIRED to sell passengers the cheapest ticket which met their requirements, asking questions such as responding to a request for a return with "when are you coming back" if there was a choice of ticket types. It was in the ticket staff training on day one.

When did this requirement get cancelled?

And it's invalid to say "if they have time" because a clerk asking such is going to be far quicker than a passenger at a self-service TVM who has to absorb and understand all the options, which sometimes are nonsenses, such as the (then) LM machine at Worcester Shrub Hill trying by default to sell me a ticket to London only valid on LM via Birmingham, not even displaying on page 1 one to Paddington, which direct train I had turned up for.

 

[PeterC]

As an aside, if there are a range of alternatives do you experience passengers getting stroppy about being quized?

 

[yorkie]

Well it was certainly the case back in BR days when staff were REQUIRED to sell passengers the cheapest ticket which met their requirements, asking questions such as responding to a request for a return with "when are you coming back" if there was a choice of ticket types. It was in the ticket staff training on day one.

When did this requirement get cancelled?

It's still a requirement of impartial retailing, it's just that several TOCs flout this requirement at many locations on numerous occasions and there is no evidence of any enforcement action being taken by any relevant body. I think DfT see it as ORR's job and vice-versa.