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Question for train drivers regarding stop car markers.

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lparris

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Hi All,

Quick HYPOTHETICAL question.

Say if a driver coming into a platform and my stop car marker is beyond the signal which is at danger, what is the correct protocol for this? Would you wait ouside of the station until it clears? Or Draw up to the signal and wait (however, this then brings the issue of passengers interfering with the PTI)

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: Hypothetical Question so changed wording accordingly.
 
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Ianno87

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Not a driver here, but would you not proceed past the previous signal until it had suitably stepped up?
 

Sheridan

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Are you talking about a location with a mid-platform signal? Or some other layout?
 

theironroad

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Hi All,

Quick question.

Say if I'm coming into a platform and my stop car marker is beyond the signal which is at danger, what is the correct protocol for this? Would you wait ouside of the station until it clears? Or Draw up to the signal and wait (however, this then brings the issue of passengers interfering with the PTI)

Thanks in advance!

Not sure if you're quoting a hypothetical or actual situation.

The ops standards of the relevant toc must have assessed it, as it's unworkable in real life unless a special procedure has been laid out.

There might be an arrangement where the previous signal to enter the platform (home) won't be cleared unless the platform starter will also be clear.

Otherwise, unless it's a short formation platform with either msdo or addi in place, then I can't see how it would work because as you imply there's a risk of people using egresses to leave the train which isn't fully accommodated.

Please tell me it's a dream rather than reality :)
 

theironroad

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If it's approach controlled (which seems possible in the scenario you're describing) you'll be a waiting a very long time for it to clear

What's happens if it's not going to clear because it's faulty and needs talking past or the train has to be held at the station due to something going on ahead?
 

PupCuff

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There's almost certainly going to be differing procedures for each train company (and possibly different stock at that train company too), but consideration can be given to:
Why is the signal at danger? If it's for a train in the section ahead then slowing down and rolling in slowly could be a valid option but if it's red because of a fault or because the box wants you to call them then no matter how slow you come in it still isn't going to clear. If it's approach controlled if you're not close enough to activate it likewise it won't clear.
How long is your train? The car stop marker might be past the signal but - whilst operationally inconvenient - that doesn't necessarily mean that your train won't fit in the platform length available. Of course if you're DOO then position of monitors or mirrors becomes a consideration too, or in conventional operation are there restrictions on where the conductor needs to be on the platform?
What type of train are you driving? Is it fitted with one of these new-fangled systems that will throw a wobbly if you try to put up a door release in the wrong place on the platform? Is it slam door, in which case you really don't want to end up in a position where people are trying doors if you're then drawing forwards to the correct stopping point.

A combination of route knowledge, company procedures, and also professional experience will come into play with situations like this. If there's a particular location where this is a common problem, as was touched on before, there will be specific instructions about it (eg midplatform signals at Leeds, some TOCs allow the trains to be dispatched against a yellow - so the end platform signal is red - whilst some insist that the end platform signal is clear before dispatch begins)
 

lparris

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Sorry, I should have made it clear that it's a HYPOTHETICAl situation. I can only think of a couple of instances where it would happen, Thameslink stations in the 'core' have halfway signals, although I know a lot of drivers wait for a single yellow before entereing (thus answering my question)
But (I think) there were a few places on the Western Region where the platforms were too short for the 2+8 HST's hence the stop car marker being off the platform, it was more in this scenario I was wondering about if there was a home signal between the end of the platform and marker, what would or the rule book (say) do?

Signal replacement or platform lengthening would obviously mitigate this scenario. It was just a random thought that popped into my head.
 

Class2ldn

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We have it on TL in the core, generally we wait until we have 2 yellows so we know the mid platform signal is clear and we can pull in completely.
If you do get caught out then plenty of announcements can go a long way to reducing issues with passengers pulling egresses etc
 

TSG

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What's happens if it's not going to clear because it's faulty and needs talking past or the train has to be held at the station due to something going on ahead?
Well, quite, I agree with your earlier post that this is potentially unworkable. I would imagine if it was for something like reduced overlap the signal would need to be ready to clear before you could get a proceed towards it, but I grant that doesn't guarantee that it will. Either that or something like Lime Street control to ensure that the train is short enough to fit the part of the platform its already allowed in to
 

iphone76

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We have this at Maryland on the down main platform if in the up direction, driving an 8 car train.

It would be very very rare. (Hasn't happened to me as yet).
 

8J

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St Helens Central Station on the up has the starting signal midway along the platform (I assume to accommodate the overlap for crossover that is there). It has never been an issue as a 4 car train fits and that is as long as anything that used to run down there is.

As trains are becoming longer on this route (5 car Class 397s and 6 car 331s) it is becoming more and more of a pain in the backside. I expect when the line is resignalled, they will look into this. Surely double blocking with the existing infrastructure would be a solution?
 

Ianno87

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St Helens Central Station on the up has the starting signal midway along the platform (I assume to accommodate the overlap for crossover that is there). It has never been an issue as a 4 car train fits and that is as long as anything that used to run down there is.

As trains are becoming longer on this route (5 car Class 397s and 6 car 331s) it is becoming more and more of a pain in the backside. I expect when the line is resignalled, they will look into this. Surely double blocking with the existing infrastructure would be a solution?

Shifting or plain lining the crossover would seem a more logical thing to do, rather than having double blocking affect 95% of the operation.
 

GB

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We have this at Maryland on the down main platform if in the up direction, driving an 8 car train.

It would be very very rare. (Hasn't happened to me as yet).
Isn’t Manningtree on the down similar. Or has it changed with the new trains?
 

221129

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I believe Westbury used to (might still do) have this issue with an up HST on Platform 3. If the signal was off then you could fit the whole train on but if it was on then the TGS and the last 2 coaches were off the end.

I've seen at Bristol a couple of times just after the resignalling when the Mid Platform signals came in drivers brought in long trains assuming the mid signal would clear and then didnt.
 

306024

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Isn’t Manningtree on the down similar. Or has it changed with the new trains?

12 car trains and Mk3 sets used to pass CO197 at the country end of platform 3 to ensure the rear was on the platform. Now class 745s stop with the signal visible and the rear doors do not open. No doubt 720s will be the same, but 12x321 / 12x360 would still need to stop beyond the signal.
 

driver9000

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St Helens Central Station on the up has the starting signal midway along the platform (I assume to accommodate the overlap for crossover that is there). It has never been an issue as a 4 car train fits and that is as long as anything that used to run down there is.

As trains are becoming longer on this route (5 car Class 397s and 6 car 331s) it is becoming more and more of a pain in the backside. I expect when the line is resignalled, they will look into this. Surely double blocking with the existing infrastructure would be a solution?

At St Helens Central the 5 car board was originally beyond the signal and it was pointed out the signal could be at danger one day. As it turns out a 397 fits inside the signal and the marker is now fixed to the wall. As I recall there were plans to move the cross over and rejig the signalling around the station area but this was never done. The crossover was initially left unwired when the line was electrified too.
 

Right Away

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I believe Westbury used to (might still do) have this issue with an up HST on Platform 3. If the signal was off then you could fit the whole train on but if it was on then the TGS and the last 2 coaches were off the end.

I've seen at Bristol a couple of times just after the resignalling when the Mid Platform signals came in drivers brought in long trains assuming the mid signal would clear and then didnt.
At Westbury, platforms 2 and 3 have been lengthened (and the up direction signal on platform 3 has been moved further along) so that both platforms can now accommodate a 10 car IET formation. There was one occasion when an up HST drew past the platform 3 signal in order to accommodate the whole train and then failed, route locking the north end of the station. I recall the 08 from the yard being sent to drag the formation back in clear of the signal.

It used to be common practise at some stations in Cornwall to draw an HST formation beyond the semaphore starting signal in order to accommodate more carriages at the platform. Liskeard in the down direction was one particular example. I am not sure if this method has continued with IET services.
 

43066

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Hi All,

Quick HYPOTHETICAL question.

Say if a driver coming into a platform and my stop car marker is beyond the signal which is at danger, what is the correct protocol for this? Would you wait ouside of the station until it clears? Or Draw up to the signal and wait (however, this then brings the issue of passengers interfering with the PTI)

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: Hypothetical Question so changed wording accordingly.

I used to sign London Bridge which has mid platform signals on every platform. Drivers wouldn’t enter the platform on less than two yellows as it’s asking for trouble otherwise. Mid platform signals are a really terrible idea.
 
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Timpg

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12 car trains and Mk3 sets used to pass CO197 at the country end of platform 3 to ensure the rear was on the platform. Now class 745s stop with the signal visible and the rear doors do not open. No doubt 720s will be the same, but 12x321 / 12x360 would still need to stop beyond the signal.

even with the rear doors locked out in a 745... it’s not a pleasant platform to stop at especially with the gradient pushing you into the station!
sighting the signal whilst departing isn’t great either lol!!
 

Ianno87

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I used to sign London Bridge which has mid platform signals on every platform. Drivers wouldn’t enter the platform on less than two yellows as it’s asking for trouble otherwise. Mid platform signals are a really terrible idea.

Great for headways though.
 

306024

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even with the rear doors locked out in a 745... it’s not a pleasant platform to stop at especially with the gradient pushing you into the station!
sighting the signal whilst departing isn’t great either lol!!

Certainly could give you neck ache :(
Worst case is a 12 car EMU going to Harwich. If the road doesn’t come off on approach to CO197 (perfectly possible if there is a train on the up from Ipswich) I’ve known drivers either creep into the platform very slowly or buzz the guard up to ensure they don’t release the doors. Both times a good PA announcement was made so passengers weren’t wondering why they couldn’t alight.
 

Timpg

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Certainly could give you neck ache :(
Worst case is a 12 car EMU going to Harwich. If the road doesn’t come off on approach to CO197 (perfectly possible if there is a train on the up from Ipswich) I’ve known drivers either creep into the platform very slowly or buzz the guard up to ensure they don’t release the doors. Both times a good PA announcement was made so passengers weren’t wondering why they couldn’t alight.

I suppose luckily for me in a way I’ll only sign stadler and eventually the new 720’s lol!
it certainly is a neck breaker when dispatching yourself with 12 cameras to check and a signal about 40ft above you hahaa!!
 
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