Question: North London Line freight to/from WCML - via Primrose Hill or Kensal rise ?

[Chris Butler]

Lots of freight from the WCML(especially to Felixstowe) uses the North London Lin . The thing is that between Willesden and Camden Rd, it can take either of two routes. The first, via Primrose Hill, involves crossing the NLL and so blocking that line in both directions. The second, via Kensal Rise, follows the NLL for a longer distance, but does not require any crossover.

Since the Overground service stops at all stations, its average speed is pretty low (I'd guess 20mph-30mph) and so freight does not 'slow down' the passenger services. I had therefore assumed that the Kensal Rise route would be the preferred route because it would impact the capacity of the NLL less. In fact, when I check (today) on RTT, both routes are used, but the Primrose Hill route is used more.

What am I missing ? Does it surprise other than the flat junction is preferred ?

 

[zwk500]

via Kensal rise has to fit between all the NLL trains, and a freight needs an 8 minute gap (more or less) between them to avoid delays. Also there's freight from the Gospel Oak-Barking line that joins at Gospel Oak. If the gap works at Camden Junction, you can release a path for ex-Barking (Ripple Lane, Tilbury, London Gateway) as the ex-Stratford freight goes via the WCML slows. The gap is not too hard to manage at Camden - time the train to cross when an Up train is coming off the DC line and you'll usually be pretty good for a margin as it;s grade-separated.

Also in the mix is the flat junctions around Willesden Jn HL station, the slow speed through the yard lines and the flat junctions at Wembley Central to get out onto the WCML.

Pre-Covid capacity on the NLL was extremely scarce. It may not be such a problem now, but it'll be more fuss to change everything over so as long as the original plan works, no need to fix it!

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the point is that on these routes it’s the passenger service that tends to slow down the freight, rather than the freight slowing the passenger. I know there’s been previous discussions about TfL only gradually increasing NLL services because th3 freight had first dibs...

 

[GB]

Lots of freight from the WCML(especially to Felixstowe) uses the North London Lin . The thing is that between Willesden and Camden Rd, it can take either of two routes. The first, via Primrose Hill, involves crossing the NLL and so blocking that line in both directions. The second, via Kensal Rise, follows the NLL for a longer distance, but does not require any crossover.

Simply put there are not enough paths to have every freight train go via Kensal Rise. Its used a lot for trains to Gateway, stone traffic to the WAML and GEML. Trains for the WCML would still need to crossover at Kensal Rise anyway.

 

[Bald Rick]

Lots of freight from the WCML(especially to Felixstowe) uses the North London Lin . The thing is that between Willesden and Camden Rd, it can take either of two routes. The first, via Primrose Hill, involves crossing the NLL and so blocking that line in both directions. The second, via Kensal Rise, follows the NLL for a longer distance, but does not require any crossover.

And going the other way ?

Other reasons:

1) going via Camden means that the freight can be lined up to be pushed through the Camden Road complex quickly, and onto the freight lines there. If going via Hampstead it’s a long way behind a stopper

2) there’s more capacity via Camden, as stuff heading for the Thameside ports goes via Hampstead and turns left at Gospel Oak

3) going via Hampstead usually means stopping on the City Lines incline, which means starting a heavy train on it too. That can (and does) take a long time. There’s a neutral section and 10mph restriction there too.

4) it’s quicker via Camden

5) via Hampstead also means using the short single lead / single line section at the Harlesden end, at 15mph.

 

[Chris Butler]

Simply put there are not enough paths to have every freight train go via Kensal Rise. Its used a lot for trains to Gateway, stone traffic to the WAML and GEML. Trains for the WCML would still need to crossover at Kensal Rise anyway.

Traffic to the WAML and GEML goes via Camden Rd doesn't it ? If so, it has the same pathing conflict with the WCML traffic regardless of which route is taken.

What you say is true for other GOBLIN freight though (e.g. to/from Gateway). There's actually more freight on that line than I thought. So, that is a factor, however, conflict is only avoided if both trains (one coming from the WCML via Primrose Hill and one going to a GOBLIN route) could use the same path on the NLL. That means the WCML train has to arrive at the NLL about six minutes after the GOBLIN train left the NLL at Gospel Oak.

There is no crossover at Kensal Green junction coming from the WCML is there ?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not getting your point. The pathing conflict for all those routes (Gateway, stone traffic to the WAML and GEML) exists whichever route is taken from the WCML.

The traffic to Gateway / Thameside can *only* go via Hampstead. (Unless it is to cross the whole of the GEML on the flat).

As, indeed, with anything coming from the WLL or Acton - it must go via Hampstead.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The traffic to Gateway / Thameside can *only* go via Hampstead. (Unless it is to cross the whole of the GEML on the flat).

As, indeed, with anything coming from the WLL or Acton - it must go via Hampstead.

I remember in the "good old days", stuff from the likes of Tilbury running with 86s and 90s and making that crossing move, albeit only off-peak or evenings.

I'm sure it's not impossible to path at least once an hour in each direction if you create a half-hourly 4-minute gap at Forest Gate Jn?

 

[Ianno87]

I'm sure it's not impossible to path at least once an hour in each direction if you create a half-hourly 4-minute gap at Forest Gate Jn?

On 4 tracks simultaneously?!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

On 4 tracks simultaneously?!

They did it before to be able to run something eastbound. Arguably you could make it work - it's not impossible.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure it's not impossible to path at least once an hour in each direction if you create a half-hourly 4-minute gap at Forest Gate Jn?

Four minutes? For a 700metre Freightliner at 20mph on green aspects?

You need four separate gaps -

1) to get off the North London Line without conflicting with anything coming out of Stratford P1/2
2) to get on to the GEML at Maryland
3) to cross the GEML Up Main and join the Down Electric at Maryland East or Forest Gate
4) to cross the GEML Up Electric at Forest Gate, and straight onto the T&H at Woodgrange Park.

And those gaps have to line up perfectly with each other, otherwise there nearly half a mile of train blocking the line.

 

[Chris Butler]

I think the point is that on these routes it’s the passenger service that tends to slow down the freight, rather than the freight slowing the passenger. I know there’s been previous discussions about TfL only gradually increasing NLL services because th3 freight had first dibs...

The traffic to Gateway / Thameside can *only* go via Hampstead. (Unless it is to cross the whole of the GEML on the flat).

As, indeed, with anything coming from the WLL or Acton - it must go via Hampstead.

Ignore my Reply. I pressed too early. I've amended it since.

via Kensal rise has to fit between all the NLL trains, and a freight needs an 8 minute gap (more or less) between them to avoid delays. Also there's freight from the Gospel Oak-Barking line that joins at Gospel Oak. If the gap works at Camden Junction, you can release a path for ex-Barking (Ripple Lane, Tilbury, London Gateway) as the ex-Stratford freight goes via the WCML slows. The gap is not too hard to manage at Camden - time the train to cross when an Up train is coming off the DC line and you'll usually be pretty good for a margin as it;s grade-separated.

Also in the mix is the flat junctions around Willesden Jn HL station, the slow speed through the yard lines and the flat junctions at Wembley Central to get out onto the WCML.

Pre-Covid capacity on the NLL was extremely scarce. It may not be such a problem now, but it'll be more fuss to change everything over so as long as the original plan works, no need to fix it!

Nice reply. Thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

They did it before to be able to run something eastbound. Arguably you could make it work - it's not impossible.

Anything is possible within the laws of physics. This would need either the cancellation of trains on one or more of the GEML, NLL or T&H, or large amounts of pathing time in services on those lines which in turn would almost certainly lead to pathing time elsewhere, which would make other parts of the network unworkable (eg Liverpool St, or Crossrail and the GWML, or the NLL)

Pre-Covid capacity on the NLL was extremely scarce. It may not be such a problem now, but it'll be more fuss to change everything over so as long as the original plan works, no need to fix it!

In Covid it’s no different, indeed arguably worse. The timetable was rewritten in December to improve reliability, which has increased some margins, meaning some trains had to come out. They were all passenger trains, but it does mean there’s no space for any extra trains at all.

 

[Chris Butler]

I think the point is that on these routes it’s the passenger service that tends to slow down the freight, rather than the freight slowing the passenger. I know there’s been previous discussions about TfL only gradually increasing NLL services because th3 freight had first dibs...

The Overground is slower than freight. I think that's true. However, the time taken by freight via both routes is only one minute different (Wembley Yard to Camden Rd.) and it's actually the Primrose Hill route that is slower. (That's all based on a check on a couple of scheduled daytime timings). I'm not sure overall journey time ('speed') is a factor in determining the route.

And going the other way ?

Yes, it's a one-direction-only issue.

1) going via Camden means that the freight can be lined up to be pushed through the Camden Road complex quickly, and onto the freight lines there. If going via Hampstead it’s a long way behind a stopper

Is that right ? The freight can keep up with a stopping passenger, but maybe the frequent stops means what you say is true in practice ?

2) there’s more capacity via Camden, as stuff heading for the Thameside ports goes via Hampstead and turns left at Gospel Oak

Yes. Of course the two trains (one turning left at Gospel Oak and one coming via Primrose Hill) have to be able to use the same path which requires neat choreography, but it's definitely valid.

4) it’s quicker via Camden

I checked a couple of schedules and the the two routes seem to be the same. In fact the Primrose Hill route seemed a minute slower. Did I pick untypical examples ?

*** UPDATE *** It looks like I did. It does seem to be 10 mins quicker.

5) via Hampstead also means using the short single lead / single line section at the Harlesden end, at 15mph.

Ahhh. I see. I assumed that the dual-track junction at Willesden (Kensal Green Jnc) was 'fed' by a dual-track route through Wembley Yard from the WCML. Now I see it doesn't. Thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

The Overground is slower than freight. I think that's true. However, the time taken by freight via both routes is only one minute different (Wembley Yard to Camden Rd.) and it's actually the Primrose Hill route that is slower. (That's all based on a check on a couple of scheduled daytime timings). I'm not sure overall journey time ('speed') is a factor in determining the route.

Hmm. It might be better to check Harlesden Jn to Camden Road Jn, as these are the two junctions either end of the alternative routes. All the examples I can find are significantly slower via Hampstead, because of pathing time.

Via Hampstead (the only two daytime I could find on this date) - typically 24 mins

Realtime Trains - 4L02 0427 Hams Hall Gbrf to Felixstowe South Gbrf

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1753 Db Cargo Fan A And B Sdgs to Bow East (Db Cargo)

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Via Primrose Hill (2 picked at random of dozens) - typically 14 mins

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0615 Trafford Park F.L.T. to Felixstowe North F.L.T.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1257 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Felixstowe North F.L.T.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Chris Butler]

Hmm. It might be better to check Harlesden Jn to Camden Road Jn, as these are the two junctions either end of the alternative routes. All the examples I can find are significantly slower via Hampstead, because of pathing time.

Via Hampstead (the only two daytime I could find on this date) - typically 24 mins

Realtime Trains - 4L02 0427 Hams Hall Gbrf to Felixstowe South Gbrf

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1753 Db Cargo Fan A And B Sdgs to Bow East (Db Cargo)

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Via Primrose Hill (2 picked at random of dozens) - typically 14 mins

Realtime Trains - FRGT 0615 Trafford Park F.L.T. to Felixstowe North F.L.T.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1257 Birch Coppice Freightliner to Felixstowe North F.L.T.

Realtime Trains provides live realtime running information for the Great British railway network using open data.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Ahhh. Maybe I just got it wrong. I can't recall which trains I looked at. Thanks.

 

[Hadrian]

Back in the day - late seventies - when both routes kept me rather fully employed - freight and passengers trains worked fine together between Kensal Green Junction and Gospel Oak and vice versa. Then, the daylong passenger service was rather less frequent and there were many more freights. There was considerably less freight between Gospel Oak and Camden Road than between Kensal Green Junction and Gospel Oak. Freight trains required the opposite line to be blocked through the tunnel between Finchley Road and Hampstead Heath due to the restricted loading guage.

Things got a little interesting when the number of freights appearing resulted in three being put between passenger trains from Kensal Green Junction or from Gospel Oak (instead of the usual two). Then it was generally not possible to avoid delaying the second passenger train. Regulation of freights from the Southern (via Kew), Western (via Acton) and from the several routes from the Eastern, across Regional boundaries onto the North London Line (LM) was a lost cause. All those sources needed to be rid of freights which, if held, would be delaying passenger services. There were very few places where a freight could be held between junctions clear of passenger services. The freight loops were frequently left unused because of the inevitable delays to other trains which resulted from the slow entrance and exit speeds. Issues of traincrew route knowledge and route clearance (for freightliners) could make any change of route between Willesden and Camden Road difficult unless planned well in advance. So freight trains were almost always sent their timetable routes even when running well out of course or when signalling failures or track defects reuslted in significant delays. The passenger trains were a different story. Significant disruption could be reduced by sending the odd train from Broad Street to Willesden Low Level bay from Camden Road via Primrose Hill or vice versa. Disruption often affected only one direction between Kensal Green Juction and Gospel Oak/Camden Road so reversing a train at Willesden Low Level bay permitted the service to be maintained or restored more quickly in one direction if previous trains were trapped en route in the other direction. Oh happy days.

 

[Alfie1014]

Four minutes? For a 700metre Freightliner at 20mph on green aspects?

You need four separate gaps -

1) to get off the North London Line without conflicting with anything coming out of Stratford P1/2
2) to get on to the GEML at Maryland
3) to cross the GEML Up Main and join the Down Electric at Maryland East or Forest Gate
4) to cross the GEML Up Electric at Forest Gate, and straight onto the T&H at Woodgrange Park.

And those gaps have to line up perfectly with each other, otherwise there nearly half a mile of train blocking the line.

Indeed when the T&H was closed due to the derailment at Wanstead Park and all the LTS freights had to cross the on the flat performance was noticeably worse on the GE and that was before the TfL Rail service ramped up to 8 tph off peak last December.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Back in the day - late seventies - when both routes kept me rather fully employed - freight and passengers trains worked fine together between Kensal Green Junction and Gospel Oak and vice versa. Then, the daylong passenger service was rather less frequent and there were many more freights. There was considerably less freight between Gospel Oak and Camden Road than between Kensal Green Junction and Gospel Oak. Freight trains required the opposite line to be blocked through the tunnel between Finchley Road and Hampstead Heath due to the restricted loading guage.

<SNIP>

Wonderful nostalgic post. I well remember when I was a trainee in the 1970s being 'left to get on with it' by the signaller at Kensall Green Junction. By failing to check with signallers further south (many of whom seemed to speak almost unintelligible English over the 'circuit' telephone) I managed to get four freights between two of the 20-minute interval EMUs. These comprised one from Kew, one from Acton, one from the West London Line and one from Harlesden. This procession then came to a complete stop because of a proper out-of-gauge load coming through Hampstead Tunnel in the opposite direction. At that point the Divisional Signalling Inspector happened to come in, took one glance at the train register, and cheerily asked, "So how's it going [Dr Hoo]?"

I learnt a lot that day.

 

[Bald Rick]

Wonderful nostalgic post. I well remember when I was a trainee in the 1970s being 'left to get on with it' by the signaller at Kensall Green Junction. By failing to check with signallers further south (many of whom seemed to speak almost unintelligible English over the 'circuit' telephone) I managed to get four freights between two of the 20-minute interval EMUs. These comprised one from Kew, one from Acton, one from the West London Line and one from Harlesden. This procession then came to a complete stop because of a proper out-of-gauge load coming through Hampstead Tunnel in the opposite direction. At that point the Divisional Signalling Inspector happened to come in, took one glance at the train register, and cheerily asked, "So how's it going [Dr Hoo]?"

I learnt a lot that day.

Brilliant! I bet the Gospel Oak man had a shock.

 

[GB]

Traffic to the WAML and GEML goes via Camden Rd doesn't it ? If so, it has the same pathing conflict with the WCML traffic regardless of which route is taken.

What you say is true for other GOBLIN freight though (e.g. to/from Gateway). There's actually more freight on that line than I thought. So, that is a factor, however, conflict is only avoided if both trains (one coming from the WCML via Primrose Hill and one going to a GOBLIN route) could use the same path on the NLL. That means the WCML train has to arrive at the NLL about six minutes after the GOBLIN train left the NLL at Gospel Oak.

There is no crossover at Kensal Green junction coming from the WCML is there ?

Stone traffic for WAML/GEML does pass Camden Rd but travels along the corridor you are talking about from Acton Wells Junction...thus using up paths. As regards to crossings its swings and roundabouts, which ever route they take they will either have to cross the entire NLL tracks (going to the WCML at Kensal Rise or going to NLL from Primrose Hill) or cross one line (Coming from WCML at Kensal Rise or going too the WCML at Primrose Hill)

With the amount of passenger and freight running it makes no logical sense to send all trains via one route.

 

[Chris Butler]

Stone traffic for WAML/GEML does pass Camden Rd but travels along the corridor you are talking about from Acton Wells Junction...thus using up paths.

I think we are talking a bit past each other. Stone traffic for WAML/GEML does use up paths, but my point was that it conflicts with traffic from the WCML regardless of which route is taken by the WCML trains. As a result it seems unlikely to (in general) be a factor in determining which route is best for the WCML traffic.

As regards to crossings its swings and roundabouts, which ever route they take they will either have to cross the entire NLL tracks (going to the WCML at Kensal Rise or going to NLL from Primrose Hill) or cross one line (Coming from WCML at Kensal Rise or going too the WCML at Primrose Hill)

Yes, but I was talking about one direction only From the WCML onto the NLL the Kensal Rise route doesn't cross the entire NLL but the Primrose Hill route does. In the other direction (to the WCML) the reverse is true ... the Kensal Rise route requires crossing the entire NLL but the Primrose Hill route doesn't. From that perspective, the best route is different in each direction.

Anyway, everyone's answers have been helpful because:-

• I hadn't realised how much freight there is on the GOBLIN and the Primrose Hill route avoids a conflict with that,
  
  
• I thought (wrongly) that the two routes were the same journey time (more or less) while, in reality, the difference is 10 mins +
  
  
• I didn't realise that there is a single track section (Harlesden Junction) that traffic via Kensal Rise has to negotiate on its way to/from the WCML.

Thanks to all.

By the way, I also noticed that there is at least one booked turn from Felixstowe that goes through Stratford then (via High Meads Jnc) onto the Goblin rather than via Camden Road.

 

[martin2345uk]

• I didn't realise that there is a single track section (Neasden Junction) that traffic via Kensal Rise has to negotiate on its way to/from the WCML.

I don't think it's Neasden Junction is it? I sign the route via Kensal Rise but Neasden Junction I am not familiar with?

 

[Bald Rick]

By the way, I also noticed that there is at least one booked turn from Felixstowe that goes through Stratford then (via High Meads Jnc) onto the Goblin rather than via Camden Road.

Not sure if that is for pathing or route retention. Probably the latter, as it is a very long way round, and Tottenham South Jn is 10mph - takes about 4 mins to clear it with a long Freightliner.

 

[Chris Butler]

I don't think it's Neasden Junction is it? I sign the route via Kensal Rise but Neasden Junction I am not familiar with?

Correct. Harlesden, not Neasden ! Thanks.

Not sure if that is for pathing or route retention. Probably the latter, as it is a very long way round, and Tottenham South Jn is 10mph - takes about 4 mins to clear it with a long Freightliner.

I am guessing route retention, but I don't know. As you say, it's definitely a long way round.

 

[InOban]

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/London-Rail-Freight-Strategy-Summary-Report.pdf

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this link, or if it has already been posted elsewhere, moderators please move. I'm 500 miles away, I'm sure there are others who can sensibly comment.

 

[Class 170101]

The traffic to Gateway / Thameside can *only* go via Hampstead. (Unless it is to cross the whole of the GEML on the flat).

As, indeed, with anything coming from the WLL or Acton - it must go via Hampstead.

I remember in the "good old days", stuff from the likes of Tilbury running with 86s and 90s and making that crossing move, albeit only off-peak or evenings.

I'm sure it's not impossible to path at least once an hour in each direction if you create a half-hourly 4-minute gap at Forest Gate Jn?

On 4 tracks simultaneously?!

Hadn't seen this (until now) but it is actually possible to get one path (and the GEML timetable requires it) per hour between Stratford Platforms 10/10A and Barking in both directions around xx23 to xx27 mins past the hour.