Questions about the fuel for DMUs

Elecman

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Oh absolutely. I know there's been spates of it in the past. It's a case of if you can get something cheaper, people will. The fact there's no way to detect it, other than dipping the tank, makes it all the more viable to do, I reckon. If it made your car emit red smoke, then it'd be less likely to happen!
It also stains the fuel filters so can be detected that way
 
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td97

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Yikes! I suppose that sounds bad on the face of it, but when you consider how many people you can move in a train, versus the equivalent number of cars, it's probably pretty good.
It's about miles per gallon per passenger.
Example: Boeing 737800 has an efficiency of 0.63 MPG. But it carries 162 passengers, which equates to 102 MPG per passenger. So actually much more efficient than a road vehicle. And there are more efficient aircraft.
Based on the aforementioned figure of 4500L tank with 1100 miles covered (1.11 MPG - not sure how the figure of 1.8 MPG was calculated - I did 1100/[4500/4.54]), on a 9-coach rake (as in VTEC), with approximately 550 passengers, then this is 610 MPG per passenger. Pretty good I think
 

hexagon789

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It's about miles per gallon per passenger.
Example: Boeing 737800 has an efficiency of 0.63 MPG. But it carries 162 passengers, which equates to 102 MPG per passenger. So actually much more efficient than a road vehicle. And there are more efficient aircraft.
Based on the aforementioned figure of 4500L tank with 1100 miles covered (1.11 MPG - not sure how the figure of 1.8 MPG was calculated - I did 1100/[4500/4.54]), on a 9-coach rake (as in VTEC), with approximately 550 passengers, then this is 610 MPG per passenger. Pretty good I think
Oh it's definitely better than a car. There's 9000 litres per set though, two power cars. Even at that I don't think I've calculated it correctly, I can't seem to get 1.8 again! :lol:
 

apk55

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Fuel consumption per passenger mile is a lot more involved. For a start not all trains are 100% full, most are only running part full most of the time. Take for example a typical suburban train, it may be overcrowded at the city center, but by the time it gets to to the outer station it is only 25% full. Then it returns to the city center with say only 25% loading. Then there is off peak operation where the load factor may only be 20% so the overall load factor on a suburban service service may be typically 30%. Intercity trains probably achieve a higher load factor but i doubt it would be much higher than 50%. Aircraft in contrast probably achieve a higher load factor.

With quoted range I would expect to see a good safety factor built in and a unit returning to a depot with less than 30% fuel remaining would be cause for concern - after all running out of fuel on line would be a disaster. Therefore fuel consumption would probably be better than that quoted.

And the figures for cars are quoted for single occupancy. Carry a passenger or 2 or 3 and fuel consumption can easily exceed 100 passenger miles per gallon. In addition a car journey may be shorter than the equivalent train journey. A typical example of this was a journey I did a lot of in the past was from Altrincham to Hall Green Birmingham. I would have to start the journey by train by going in the opposite direction, so the journey was 25% longer by train.
 

DarloRich

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Sorry meant diesel obviously not petrol
I hoped for dilithium crystals ;)

Oh absolutely. I know there's been spates of it in the past. It's a case of if you can get something cheaper, people will. The fact there's no way to detect it, other than dipping the tank, makes it all the more viable to do, I reckon. If it made your car emit red smoke, then it'd be less likely to happen!
It happens more often than you would think in countryside areas. VOSA (?) run check point operations to catch people
 

Llanigraham

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It happens more often than you would think in countryside areas. VOSA (?) run check point operations to catch people
Indeed. Very common to see them within 5 miles of the Cattle/Sheep markets dipping tanks and weighing vehicles, and I am told by one of their Inspectors that they invariably catch several people every time. The fines can be very high and can even lead to the loss of the vehicles as well.

And it is now more than a dye added, with a chemical trace element added which tells them who the manufacturer was. That is what they now test for, and is used as evidence, with the dye solely as an indicator. There are supposedly several methods of removing the dye, none of which are 100% effective, but the trace cannot be removed.
 

furnessvale

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Red diesel as used on the railway USED to be a slightly lower grade than the diesel sold for cars.
These days it is exactly the same apart from the red dye added to it.

Red diesel may be lawfully used for almost any purpose, except for vehicles used on the public roads. Examples include trains, agricultural machines, boats, ships, generators, and oil burning heating.
There are a number of minor exceptions, for example a tractor used primarily on a farm may be fuelled with red diesel even when using public roads to move from one field to another.
Refrigerated trucks can use red diesel in the separate engine that powers the cooling, but like any other truck must use white diesel in the road engine.
AFAIK the rules only apply to internal combustion engine powered vehicles. So if you have an oil burning steam vehicle, red diesel may be used in it, even on public roads.

Overseas rules differ, in the UK ALL boats and ships may use red diesel, but in parts of Europe only working boats and ships may use red diesel, pleasure craft must the more costly road fuel. British boat owners visiting such places must be able to prove that any red diesel on board was purchased in the UK.

Red or railway diesel will work just fine in a diesel car, but such use is a serious criminal offence.
White or road diesel is entirely suitable for a train, but such use would be very exceptional due to the cost.
Thank you for clearing that up, a very clear informative explanation.
Very informative but, as a boat owner I have to say slightly inaccurate post.

Alone amongst all the off road users of red diesel, pleasure boat owners in the UK have been singled out as having to use full rate excise duty diesel for propulsion purposes. Red diesel is still permitted for heating as it is in house boilers.
 

Llanigraham

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Around here the Checkpoints are run by DVSA, but they may have many other Agencies present, including HMRC, Immigration, Police, Animal Inspectors, etc.
 

hexagon789

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Very informative but, as a boat owner I have to say slightly inaccurate post.

Alone amongst all the off road users of red diesel, pleasure boat owners in the UK have been singled out as having to use full rate excise duty diesel for propulsion purposes. Red diesel is still permitted for heating as it is in house boilers.
I take it that public ferries can use Red Diesel though?
 

Bald Rick

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It's about miles per gallon per passenger.
Example: Boeing 737800 has an efficiency of 0.63 MPG. But it carries 162 passengers, which equates to 102 MPG per passenger. So actually much more efficient than a road vehicle. And there are more efficient aircraft.
Based on the aforementioned figure of 4500L tank with 1100 miles covered (1.11 MPG - not sure how the figure of 1.8 MPG was calculated - I did 1100/[4500/4.54]), on a 9-coach rake (as in VTEC), with approximately 550 passengers, then this is 610 MPG per passenger. Pretty good I think
That 1100 Miles is for runs with infrequent station stops (such as on the ECML) you wouldn't get that on, say, a cross country run or the GW.

Also, as others have said, the average load per train is nowhere near capacity. Even on the EC, the average is something like 160 people per train need to end. Whilst there are some busy trains for parts of the journey, there’s plenty that aren’t busy, and some that are frankly empty. Put thasltogether, and the average MPG per passenger will be around 150-200. Sounds good. However it’s about the same as the average MPG per passenger as my VW Golf (it normally has 3 people in it).
 

Thatcham Xing

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Boeing 737 800 has an efficiency of 0.63 MPG. But it carries 162 passengers
Slight point of order - Europe's biggest operator (by far) of the 738, Ryanair (with over 400 in service) operate them all in an identical 189 seat fit.
 

johnnychips

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Slight point of order - Europe's biggest operator (by far) of the 738, Ryanair (with over 400 in service) operate them all in an identical 189 seat fit.
And Ryanair’s average load factor is, I think, about 90%. Planes run on kerosene; I don’t know if that’s taxed in the U.K.
 

furnessvale

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And Ryanair’s average load factor is, I think, about 90%. Planes run on kerosene; I don’t know if that’s taxed in the U.K.
Thanks to international agreements, airlines pay zero fuel duty.

Even railways pay more than 10 pence per litre duty. What price a green taxation policy?
 

swt_passenger

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Yes. Any commercial boat can use red diesel. Only private boaters have to use full duty diesel.
I reckon we were lucky to get the ability to self declare the ratio of heating/generation to propulsion. The suggestion for inland waterways was that 40%/60% was typical, but I believe people can still claim differently if they can justify it. AIUI the stuff that comes out the pumps at inland waterway sources is still normal marked ‘red’ diesel though, to save them having to install two tanks.
 

furnessvale

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I reckon we were lucky to get the ability to self declare the ratio of heating/generation to propulsion. The suggestion for inland waterways was that 40%/60% was typical, but I believe people can still claim differently if they can justify it. AIUI the stuff that comes out the pumps at inland waterway sources is still normal marked ‘red’ diesel though, to save them having to install two tanks.
Indeed, a rare example of the UK government accepting EU mandated regulations but then implementing the law as the French would do, VERY pragmatically!

Of course the EU hates us for this and is trying to make us toe the line. Hopefully we will be out before the EU kangaroo court forces the issue.
 

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