Questions on Irish Mark 3s

[Speed43125]

Hello all,
I was having a read about Irish Mk.3 operations and the one thing that struck my eye was the control cars they used.
Can someone tell me a little more about them, or point me somewhere that does? Were they akin to Mk.2 DBSOs?
Was the only reason these were never made for use in Britain due to the the limit on passenger carrying leading vehicles to 100 mph?

 

[Midnight Sun]

They used a MK3 body with a new front end, A generator was mounted under the floor of the Control Car, provided electrical power to the coaches. These were used on the suburban rail service out of Dublin, The stock did not have air conditioning and had opening windows instead, the only MK3's to do so. Fitted with the same swing-plug doors as used on the Class 442. One control car (6105) has been preserved and is in store at the West Clare Railway Museum, Moyasta Co. Clare

 

[hexagon789]

Hello all,
I was having a read about Irish Mk.3 operations and the one thing that stuck my eye was the control cars they used.
Can someone tell me a little more about them, or point me somewhere that does? Were they akin to Mk.2 DBSOs?
Was the only reason these were never made for use in Britain due to the the limit on passenger carrying leading vehicles to 100 mph?

Not really, they were effectively fitted out like the GM locos with an 8-notch power handle.

They were also limited to 70mph when propelled but could be hauled later on at 90 after they all were fitted with BT22 bogies, originally the first two had the same bogies as the original DART EMUs which limited speed when hauled to 70mph as well.

So speed wasn't a problem. The non-push pull Irish Mk3s were 100 max anyway.

Formations-wise, there were 5 Driving Brake Generator Standards and 19 Intermediates (these seated 76 by omitting one toilet), this allowed three 6-car and two 3-car sets to be made up originally but formations of anything from two to six cars (the maximum the Driving Trailer's generator could supply). The Limerick-Limerick Junction shuttle was latterly often only two-cars and a 121 loco.

It should be noted the Suburban push-pull and InterCity fleets were not mixed in traffic save for some use of Intermediates with an Electric Generator Van to provide cover for unavailable InterCity Mk3s (such as 5 intermediates and an EGV on a Waterford InterCity in 2007), certainly the Driving Trailers were never used with the IC Mk3 fleet.

BR did consider a First Class Mk3 driving car, there was even a plan in an issue of Modern Railways in the 1980s at about the time the Mk3b order was being placed iirc.

 

[dubscottie]

Here is the drawing for the control cars. (sorry its in 2 pictures).

That will give you an idea of the layout of them.

The interior was much the same as a mainline Mk3 but the floors were lino until about 2003/2004 when carpets were fitted.

Edited to get pics the right way up!

 

[hexagon789]

Here is the drawing for the control cars. (sorry its in 2 pictures).

That will give you an idea of the layout of them.

The interior was much the same as a mainline Mk3 but the floors were lino until about 2003/2004 when carpets were fitted.

Those diagrams are quite official looking. There's a similar thing in an issue of the Irish Railway Record Society Journal as a feature from when the push-pull fleet was introduced but it's just an internal plan.

I don't suppose you have anymore diagrams like that relating to the Irish Mk3 fleet at all? They are pretty much non- existent compared to British ones online.

 

[dubscottie]

I have most but only 2 or 3 are to hand just now. I got them direct from the Inchicore drawing office.
Pics not the best as I had to use my phone and the drawings are quite large.

Mk3 EGV


Mk3 TSO


International TSO

 

[hexagon789]

I have most but only 2 or 3 are to hand just now. I got them direct from the Inchicore drawing office.
Pics not the best as I had to use my phone and the drawings are quite large.

Mk3 EGV
View attachment 81674View attachment 81675

Mk3 TSO
View attachment 81676View attachment 81677

International TSO
View attachment 81678View attachment 81679View attachment 81680View attachment 81681

That's excellent, thank you very much for that. If you do get a chance with any more I'd be very grateful to see them, thanks.

The "TSO" plan nicely shows the original Standard layout with only four full tables.

 

[dubscottie]

That's excellent, thank you very much for that. If you do get a chance with any more I'd be very grateful to see them, thanks.

The "TSO" plan nicely shows the original Standard layout with only four full tables.

You're welcome. I think they may be in the loft of the house I rent out so it will be a while before I can look.
I have a few other plans of other Irish stuff. The biggest is drawings of a class 201 bogie. They have only been opened twice out in the garden as it takes about an hour to fold them back up!

 

[hexagon789]

Your welcome. I think they may be in the loft of the house I rent out so it will be a while before I can look.
I have a few other plans of other Irish stuff. The biggest is drawings of a class 201 bogie. They have only been opened twice out in the garden as it takes about an hour to fold them back up!

No problem, any on coaching stock would be if great interest to myself - particularly the Mk3 and Mk2D fleets. Irish coaching stock is a rather niche subject and source material is limited so anything at all is very welcome. I've literally seen a basic drawing of a push-pull Control Car and one fuzzy scan of a Standard Class diagram and that's been it. I remain hopeful that diagrams of the original First Class conversions (I say conversions because as you may know First Class, or more accurately "Superstandard" as CIÉ called it, in Mk3 sets originally consisted of Standards dressed up as First class until coaches 7107 and 7110 were converted in 1986) exist as they were quite distinct from the later "CityGold" cars.

That bogie diagram must be at quite some scale then!

 

[dubscottie]

No problem, any on coaching stock would be if great interest to myself - particularly the Mk3 and Mk2D fleets. Irish coaching stock is a rather niche subject and source material is limited so anything at all is very welcome. I've literally seen a basic drawing of a push-pull Control Car and one fuzzy scan of a Standard Class diagram and that's been it. I remain hopeful that diagrams of the original First Class conversions (I say conversions because as you may know First Class, or more accurately "Superstandard" as CIÉ called it, in Mk3 sets originally consisted of Standards dressed up as First class until coaches 7107 and 7110 were converted in 1986) exist as they were quite distinct from the later "CityGold" cars.

That bogie diagram must be at quite some scale then!

On the next dry, calm day here I will open those bogie plans up on the lawn and take a pic. There is not a room in the place big enough to do it!

The book "Irish Railway Rambler" by Michael McMahon (ISBN 978-1-78073-075-2) has some great interior shots of the Mk3 "Firsts" and subsequent upgrades. There is a pic of the executive coach also.

You are right about the first, 1st class Mk3. A standard fitted with curtains and paper on the headrests!

 

[hexagon789]

On the next dry, calm day here I will open those bogie plans up on the lawn and take a pic. There is not a room in the place big enough to do it!

Must be utterly massive! Wonder why they printed it so large, to retain the minute details?

The book "Irish Railway Rambler" by Michael McMahon (ISBN 978-1-78073-075-2) has some great interior shots of the Mk3 "Firsts" and subsequent upgrades. There is a pic of the executive coach also.

I have that book as well, it actually partially answered a question about a photo on Flickr specific Mk3 vehicle that had puzzled for about two years!

You are right about the first, 1st class Mk3. A standard fitted with curtains and paper on the headrests!

Never really was going to attract business clientele that, especially when there were Mk2Ds going about with proper 2+1 first, some of it even being declassified on trains off the Dublin-Cork route!

 

[randyrippley]

I've got a memory that besides the easy-clean vinyl floors, the mkIII fleet also had solid plastic brown and orange seats also easy to clean

 

[43096]

You are right about the first, 1st class Mk3. A standard fitted with curtains and paper on the headrests!

I wonder if that’s where GTR got the idea from for the first class on the 387s for the “premium” Gatwick Express services?

 

[WesternLancer]

I wonder if that’s where GTR got the idea from for the first class on the 387s for the “premium” Gatwick Express services?

surely they would have ruled that out as too luxurious?

 

[hexagon789]

I've got a memory that besides the easy-clean vinyl floors, the mkIII fleet also had solid plastic brown and orange seats also easy to clean

The diners originally had orange plastic seats, but they were later all re-seated with the same seat and seat fabrics as the Standards.

 

[hexagon789]

I wonder if that’s where GTR got the idea from for the first class on the 387s for the “premium” Gatwick Express services?

Perhaps this will give you an idea of the deception

Fuzzy, but here's 7112 decked-out as a Superstandard in 1986:


At least two vehicles were also branded externally - 7120 and 7140 these being in the first two sets on traffic, photo courtesy of Paul Haywood:

Dublin Heuston

July 1984. Nearly new CIE Mark III coach 7140 forming part of a Cork express.

www.flickr.com

 

[43096]

Perhaps this will give you an idea of the deception

Fuzzy, but here's 7112 decked-out as a Superstandard in 1986:
View attachment 81715

At least two vehicles were also branded externally - 7120 and 7140 these being in the first two sets on traffic, photo courtesy of Paul Haywood:

Dublin Heuston

July 1984. Nearly new CIE Mark III coach 7140 forming part of a Cork express.

www.flickr.com

Looks way better than a GatEx387! But I take the point.

 

[hexagon789]

Looks way better than a GatEx387! But I take the point.

To be fair, the Standards were always said to be quite comfortable anyway an improvement on the padded "bench" style seats of the Mk2Ds, but when the Mk2Ds were still going about with 2+1 seating and in many cases on Standard only services, charging for the privilege of curtains, antimacassars and at-seat catering seems like pushing it.

Didn't last long anyway, complaints were sufficient to get CIÉ to do something about it though still somewhat half-heartedly.

 

[dubscottie]

Off topic slightly, @hexagon789 I have the following to hand.

- A class
- Maybe a C class (too big to open but it's a Met-Vic anyway)
- 141/181
- A few 071 drawings
- AEC 2600 railcar driving brake
- Original LHB DART
- New 2600/2800 railcar (A & B vehicles)
- A structural drawing of the body shell of a 2700 railcar (should anyone fancy building one)
- Cross border stock (Enterprise)
- GM class 201 (multiple drawings)
- One of the newer DARTs. Can't see which class without unfolding it.
- Irish Mk2d Standard
- Cravens Standard
- 29000 DMU

Some are basic and newer ones are about A3 size and some are much, much larger and more detailed.

Few other painting diagrams etc also.

I had a peek at that bogie diagram. I thought it was two I had but I remember now that it was originally one big drawing that I carefully cut in two when it was last opened about 15 years ago. It was about 14ft x 8ft if IIRC. Its now two 14ft x 4ft parts.

I am going to open it and picture it as it may be of interest to someone here in the future as I think the bogies were similar to the Class 59s.

 

[hexagon789]

Off topic slightly, @hexagon789 I have the following to hand.

- A class
- Maybe a C class (too big to open but it's a Met-Vic anyway)
- 141/181
- A few 071 drawings
- AEC 2600 railcar driving brake
- Original LHB DART
- New 2600/2800 railcar (A & B vehicles)
- A structural drawing of the body shell of a 2700 railcar (should anyone fancy building one)
- Cross border stock (Enterprise)
- GM class 201 (multiple drawings)
- One of the newer DARTs. Can't see which class without unfolding it.
- Irish Mk2d Standard
- Cravens Standard
- 29000 DMU

Some are basic and newer ones are about A3 size and some are much, much larger and more detailed.

Few other painting diagrams etc also.

I had a peek at that bogie diagram. I thought it was two I had but I remember now that it was originally one big drawing that I carefully cut in two when it was last opened about 15 years ago. It was about 14ft x 8ft if IIRC. Its now two 14ft x 4ft parts.

I am going to open it and picture it as it may be of interest to someone here in the future as I think the bogies were similar to the Class 59s.

That's very kind of you going to the trouble of listing them, but it was really just the Mk3s that were of interest.

The Mk2D layouts as built are detailed in a chapter of the Harris book on Mk2 coaches and very nearly all those you mention are featured in various issues of a publication you may or may not have heard of.

The publication is the Journal of the irish Railway Record Society, they publish these journals thrice annually and have done since they were formed in the 1940s I believe. I obtained a job lot from eBay covering 1985-2003 plus a selection of other issues from the society covering 1984 plus two other issues.

As well as a number of historical articles, there is a news section which records stock changes and everytime a new fleet enters service in Ireland you can be sure the Journal has a highly detailed technical article on it.

The 2600, 2700, 2800, 29000 DMUs, the later 201 Class from the 1990s, De-Dietrich coaches and DART EMUs are all featured over the years but the Mk3s have no drawings bar a basic representation of the push-pull Control Car in the February 1989 issue.

I can quite easily figure out the ammended layouts for the Mk2D stock, but the first two Mk3 "Firsts" with a different seating layout to Standard Class have a layout which seems quite unique a mix of table and unidirectional airline seating. The third vehicle to be a proper "First" (7157) had an all at tables layout but 7107 and 7110 were different.

As they just about fall into my modelling period I'd love to see a plan of their interior layout so that I could properly model the interior of one.

I have a suspicion that CIÉ may not have issued any ammended vehicle diagrams unlike BR who issued one for even the most minor alterations, but I could be wrong and a plan for the ammended layout in 7107 and 7110 may exist.