Questions on Loco-Hauled Services in Denmark and Germany

XAM2175

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Afternoon,

I'm planning a trip for the end of October and I'm looking for a few tips:
  1. What regional services from Copenhagen are most likely to be loco-hauled on weekdays? Ideally the ME-type diesels.
  2. And the same (RB and RE services) from Hamburg (on weekdays) and Berlin (weekdays and Saturdays)? Here my preference would be for diesels or 112/114/143 series electrics.
Thanks for any advice!
 
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30907

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For Hamburg: Altona-Westerland is hauled stock (245?).
You should get a pair of 218s on the 2x daily Hamburg-Burg-Puttgarden IC and possibly on IC2072 to Westerland (normally only beyond Itzehoe, but because of the engineering works towards Berlin the train is starting at Hamburg Hbf).

112 etc AFAIK (for obvious reasons I am 2 years out of date) work towards Lübeck, Rostock, Flensburg and Kiel

Edit: not up-to-date with Berlin, so can't comment on electrics, but AFAIK you won't find any diesel-hauled passenger there in normal circumstances.

PS you might do better in the International section?
 
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Gloster

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A quick look through the Working Timetable ( Tjenestekøreplan Øst ) on Banedanmark’s site ( .bane.dk ) suggests that the ME are mainly working the Nykøbing F. trains and, to a lesser extent, the Kalundborg ones.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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Luebeck - Kiel is closed through 1. November unfortunately, normally some diesels and DoStos run Hamburg - Luebeck - Kiel and return.

But the Hamburger Strand Express to Fehmarn runs weekends through 1. November!
 

StephenHunter

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For Hamburg: Altona-Westerland is hauled stock (245?).
You should get a pair of 218s on the 2x daily Hamburg-Burg-Puttgarden IC and possibly on IC2072 to Westerland (normally only beyond Itzehoe, but because of the engineering works towards Berlin the train is starting at Hamburg Hbf).

112 etc AFAIK (for obvious reasons I am 2 years out of date) work towards Lübeck, Rostock, Flensburg and Kiel

Edit: not up-to-date with Berlin, so can't comment on electrics, but AFAIK you won't find any diesel-hauled passenger there in normal circumstances.

PS you might do better in the International section?
Definitely not diesel-hauled in Berlin; there are DMUs to Kostrzyn, but that's likely your lot.. I believe that the BER services might be hauled.
 

XAM2175

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A quick look through the Working Timetable ( Tjenestekøreplan Øst ) on Banedanmark’s site ( .bane.dk ) suggests that the ME are mainly working the Nykøbing F. trains and, to a lesser extent, the Kalundborg ones.
Ah, magnificent! That's helped immensely, thanks so much :E

But the Hamburger Strand Express to Fehmarn runs weekends through 1. November!
Ooh, I'd forgotten about that one. Thanks also!

Definitely not diesel-hauled in Berlin; there are DMUs to Kostrzyn, but that's likely your lot.. I believe that the BER services might be hauled.
Haha yes, I did already know that Berlin is all-electric, but I realise in the compound question it's not obvious. Cheers anyway.
 

Gloster

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Ah, magnificent! That's helped immensely, thanks so much :E


Ooh, I'd forgotten about that one. Thanks also!


Haha yes, I did already know that Berlin is all-electric, but I realise in the compound question it's not obvious. Cheers anyway.
The DSB website’s forthcoming engineering works section lists works on the Nykøbing F. line throughout October (except the 8th), but seemingly only late at night and early in the morning. There are also fewer trains between Ringsted and København H. from 15-24 October due to another load of work.
 

Fragezeichnen

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Unlike the richer South and West of Germany which keep buying lots of brand new units, Berlin/Brandenburg/Meck-Pom has not much money to spare, so the majority of RE services are still hauuled.

In Berlin the RE1(Magdeburg - Frankfurt via Stadtbahn) is hauled(usually Taurus/182 locos, occasionally 112), along with the RE3 and RE5 running from Stralsund and Rostock in the North to various destinations south of Berlin, these are usually 112. In addition there is the FEX airport service(147 I think) and the RB services to Nauen(112/143).

In Hamburg in addition to the Deutsche Bahn there are also Metronom services with 146 Traxx locos to Bremen and Hannover, and Class 246 Diesel locomotives to Cuxhaven.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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@30907
The Hamburg - Luebeck - Kiel services used to run a couple of times a day, there was one going south where an electric loco was conveyed between the diesel and the coaches (positioning?). Dunno what timetable is valid after reopening or after the timetable change in December, but having through trains from Eutin etc to Hamburg was politically desirable.

Strictly speaking, the trains we are talking about are hauled in one direction and pushed in the other, loco stays coupled.

Are there still any ICs where the loco is at one end and runs round?
 

Fragezeichnen

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The IC to Oberstdorf runs round mid-journey to access the Branch Line. The Westerland ICs, plus nightjet and EuroCity services mostly have to run round at their destination. There might be some too that switch locomotives at Munich or Stuttgart, but I'm not sure.
 

30907

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@30907
The Hamburg - Luebeck - Kiel services used to run a couple of times a day, there was one going south where an electric loco was conveyed between the diesel and the coaches (positioning?). Dunno what timetable is valid after reopening or after the timetable change in December, but having through trains from Eutin etc to Hamburg was politically desirable.
Thanks. I remembered them running a few years back but I couldn't find them in this summer's (pre engineering works) timetable
Strictly speaking, the trains we are talking about are hauled in one direction and pushed in the other, loco stays coupled.

Are there still any ICs where the loco is at one end and runs round?
As Fragezeichnen mentions, the Westerland ICs still do (checked on Vagonweb - including 2072 from Hamburg ATM as I mentioned upthread) and the EC/IC on the Hamburg-Berlin-Prague run.
 

43096

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But the plan is for the stock to be replaced with the new ECx rakes which will have one.
Yes, but the new sets will have a loco attached that can run throughout, so having push-pull capability makes sense. Currently there is a loco change at Bad Bentheim and the loco in the Netherlands isn’t fitted for push-pull with DB’s IC stock.
 

superalbs

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Also worth a shout, whilst not strictly loco-hauled, is the DB InterCity service to Dagebüll Mole. After a certain point, the loco comes off, and is replaced by a single carriage diesel unit with generator, which then hauls the train to its destination.
 

Gloster

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Also worth a shout, whilst not strictly loco-hauled, is the DB InterCity service to Dagebüll Mole. After a certain point, the loco comes off, and is replaced by a single carriage diesel unit with generator, which then hauls the train to its destination.
I think it is - it certainly used to be - only a couple of coaches that ran through to the mole, having been detached from the main Westerland train at Niebull (sorry, can’t do an umlaut). I don’t think Dagebull can cope with long trains, although it is a while since I was there.
 

superalbs

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I think it is - it certainly used to be - only a couple of coaches that ran through to the mole, having been detached from the main Westerland train at Niebull (sorry, can’t do an umlaut). I don’t think Dagebull can cope with long trains, although it is a while since I was there.
Yeah, it's three carriages at the moment.
 

CC 72100

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Do those still run (engineering work apart)?

Good one that...
I think there is a departure around 17:00/17:30ish - I saw that last time I was in Hamburg, but that was summer 2019.

Lubecks should still be loco and coaches, Kiels and Flensburgs have - in theory - gone over to Twindexx units.

I think that Barghteide/Bad Oldesloe (check the spelling on that one!) RB locals are still 112/143s - RB81 if memory serves me correct.

And the Metronom services towards Bremen are electrics (146s) , and you'll get some diesels (245s) on the the former Metronom services towards Westerland; they may be branded as straight forward DB now.

The Cuxhaven line is now operated by Start (who are owned by DB) but is all still in Metronom yellow and blue (quite boring) class 246 diesels.
 

andersj

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Afternoon,

I'm planning a trip for the end of October and I'm looking for a few tips:
  1. What regional services from Copenhagen are most likely to be loco-hauled on weekdays? Ideally the ME-type diesels.

Most of the Copenhagen-Holbæk trains are with ME's. They run every 30 minuts.

Copenhagen-Kalundborg is usually IC4 or IC3 with a couple of ME's each day.
Copenhagen-Sorø/Slagelse is Vectron (EB)
Copenhagen-Nykøbing F is a mix of IC4, IC3 and ME.
Copenhagen-Næstved is often with ME, but from next week they will gradually be replaced by Vectron (EB)

On https://www.dinstation.dk/en it is possible to look up the departures for the next hours and if you click on the train it will show the formation/number of coaches. You can spot loco-hauled/pushed trains by the faded "coach" in the front or back without a number. Copenhagen Central is "København H" on that site. For short term decision making it's a great tool.
 

James James

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The Zurich to Hamburg EC is still plain old carriages with a locomotive, although I think it's electric all the way. (This is not the fastest connection on that route though, so it might not pop up if you look for Zurich-Hamburg schedules.) And probably not in the right area for you - Zurich-Stuttgart is also carriages.
 

XAM2175

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In Berlin the RE1(Magdeburg - Frankfurt via Stadtbahn) is hauled(usually Taurus/182 locos, occasionally 112), along with the RE3 and RE5 running from Stralsund and Rostock in the North to various destinations south of Berlin, these are usually 112. In addition there is the FEX airport service(147 I think) and the RB services to Nauen(112/143).
Lubecks should still be loco and coaches, Kiels and Flensburgs have - in theory - gone over to Twindexx units.

I think that Barghteide/Bad Oldesloe (check the spelling on that one!) RB locals are still 112/143s - RB81 if memory serves me correct.

And the Metronom services towards Bremen are electrics (146s) , and you'll get some diesels (245s) on the the former Metronom services towards Westerland; they may be branded as straight forward DB now.
Very helpful also, thanks. I've been able to corroborate these (as best as possible in an armchair sense, anyway) by finding the relevant listings on German Wikipedia:

The Cuxhaven line is now operated by Start (who are owned by DB) but is all still in Metronom yellow and blue (quite boring) class 246 diesels.
It really is an incredibly dull livery, isn't it?

Most of the Copenhagen-Holbæk trains are with ME's. They run every 30 minuts.

Copenhagen-Kalundborg is usually IC4 or IC3 with a couple of ME's each day.
Copenhagen-Sorø/Slagelse is Vectron (EB)
Copenhagen-Nykøbing F is a mix of IC4, IC3 and ME.
Copenhagen-Næstved is often with ME, but from next week they will gradually be replaced by Vectron (EB)

On https://www.dinstation.dk/en it is possible to look up the departures for the next hours and if you click on the train it will show the formation/number of coaches. You can spot loco-hauled/pushed trains by the faded "coach" in the front or back without a number. Copenhagen Central is "København H" on that site. For short term decision making it's a great tool.
This is absolutely wonderful! Thank you so much - especially for the Din station service, which I hadn't known about before. It'll be extremely handy, not just for catching locos but also hopefully avoiding IC4s :p

Am I correct though in saying that IC3 sets appear only as two cars, and that ET/Øresundståg units appear as four cars? I'm pretty sure that I've got IR4 (four cars, centre two with bicycle spaces) and IC4 (four cars, wheelchair and bicycle spaces only in one of the centre cars) worked out.

The Zurich to Hamburg EC is still plain old carriages with a locomotive, although I think it's electric all the way. (This is not the fastest connection on that route though, so it might not pop up if you look for Zurich-Hamburg schedules.) And probably not in the right area for you - Zurich-Stuttgart is also carriages.

I'm reasonably well sorted for the electric-hauled IC/EC stuff, but thanks anyway. Vagonweb is of course the bible for those services, and I'm keeping my eye on them as the Br 101 withdrawal nears. Covid unfortunately dented my original plans quite badly - I ended missing both the last of the EAs in Denmark and the Br 120s in Germany.
 

Gloster

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The IC3 and Øresundståg sets are three-coach articulated sets, i.e. four bogies. As you say, the IR4 are four-coach, but also articulated with five bogies, but only limited bicycle space which, if memory serves me correct, is in an end vehicle (or both). I will see if I can find one of the books with the information when I collect more stuff from my old house.
 

XAM2175

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The IC3 and Øresundståg sets are three-coach articulated sets, i.e. four bogies.
Yes, I know this. I'm trying to work out why the Din Station website is showing two-car trains on regional and IC services when DSB no longer has any two-car sets, and why it's showing four-car sets on Øresundståg services which cannot - to the best of my knowledge - be run by IR4 or IC4 sets.

My rationale for the IC3 appearing as two cars is that the FF (trailer) vehicle has no doors and - if Vagonweb is correct - no wagon number within the train (see how the FF vehicles aren't numbered in IC 383, for example), but I'm not sure about how the ET sets are arranged unless the centre vehicle is divided into two wagons for the purposes of reservations and the like?
 

Gloster

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I do remember that DSB tended to work on door, rather than coach, numbers as this avoids people for seats in one end of the centre-coach coming in at the other end and having to push past people who are doing the opposite. If I remember correctly, the ET/Øresundståg have one door in each end coach and two in the middle, so perhaps the reason is the same as for the IC3.

Øresundståg services across to Sweden have to be worked by ET/X31 units as they are the only bi-current sets and have both types of signalling. IC3 have worked to Sweden in the past, but I am not sure if the few sets that were so fitted still have the signalling equipment; IC4 have not been to Sweden in normal service, nor have IR4.
 

XAM2175

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I do remember that DSB tended to work on door, rather than coach, numbers as this avoids people for seats in one end of the centre-coach coming in at the other end and having to push past people who are doing the opposite. If I remember correctly, the ET/Øresundståg have one door in each end coach and two in the middle, so perhaps the reason is the same as for the IC3.
That would make sense then, indeed. Cheers.
 

Ken H

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In Berlin the regional trains were red double deck coaches with DVT at one end and a loco at the other. Always looked odd having a destination display on a loco. Very nice trains. We used them to go to Postdam (rather then the slow S-bahn stopper) and Brandenberg. We did one journey and the in-carriage PIS (TV type screens) didnt work because the train was diverted. Not just a UK problem!
 

andersj

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Yes it is correct that DSB use numbers for doors instead of coaches on their multiple units - because the IC3's have three coaches but only two entrance doors. It could probably have been solved better on the new passenger information displays including din station - but the displays on the platforms are tiny and thus the information needs to be kept simple.
 

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