Quick Gatwick Express Query

[palmersears]

Hi all,

Just a quick query, can I use a Gatwick Express anytime return ticket (specifically the return portion) on a Southern service?

I'm coming out of Gatwick at ~03:00 on the 15th of September, and the first few services back to Victoria after that time are plain ol' Southern services. I don't fancy waiting around until 05:20 so would like to pop on one of the earlier ones.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If the route field on the ticket is marked 'Any Permitted' you can use any train company's services.

 

[yorkie]

Since late 2008, there is only one Train Company operating direct services between Victoria & Gatwick: Southern. Gatwick Express is now a Southern route (as shown on this map), using the trains branded 'Express' (the same trains are also used on the Brighton Express).

I would be very surprised if there are tickets issued that only allow travel on Southern's Gatwick Express route trains, and not their trains on other routes, but without knowing exactly what is printed on the ticket, it is difficult to say, but if it's routed Any Permitted it's valid on any service, including FCC.

 

[dvboy]

Quick Gatwick Express Query

No such thing.

 

[sarahj]

The answer you were looking for was, as long as it does not say FCC only, you were welcome on board. The conductor last night I think was called Findley, he is a bit of a train nut.

 

[DavyCrocket]

I think even Southern have given up now- they're tweeting Gatwick Express cancellations from the Southern account.

 

[maniacmartin]

"Britain's train companies working together"

 

[yorkie]

Southern are more than happy to admit to operating trains on their Gatwick Express route under all circumstances except one... and that is, where tickets are concerned!

 

[DavyCrocket]

Southern are more than happy to admit to operating trains on their Gatwick Express route under all circumstances except one... and that is, where tickets are concerned!

How does it work on Great Western? Are all tickets valid from say Reading on the longer distance services? Did they say First GW, Thames Trains or Any Permitted when they were seperate franchises?

 

[LexyBoy]

The answer you were looking for was, as long as it does not say FCC only, you were welcome on board.

Even if it says NOT GATWICK EXP?

How does it work on Great Western? Are all tickets valid from say Reading on the longer distance services? Did they say First GW, Thames Trains or Any Permitted when they were seperate franchises?

I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but if you're asking whether FGW claim some difference between their intercity and commuter operations then the answer is no, and there are no tickets specific to either service (that said, one can make a good saving by splitting a Reading-London journey at Maidenhead, which effectively limits you to local services). In the peaks there is quite some use of intercity-type services to relive some of the commuter strain, with extra stops at Twyford and Maidenhead.

I don’t recall any TOC-specific tickets in Thames Trains / FGWL days, there may have been though. There are very few TOC-specific walk-up tickets in the GW region now, I think most of the XC Only fares are gone; there are still ATW Only fares but these are largely defunct now after FGW reduced the Any Permitted price to below the ATW Only price.

 

[sarahj]

Even if it says NOT GATWICK EXP?



????
Back in the say when Gatwick Express was a different company if you came onto a southern train with an express ticket,you had to do a ticket exchange, at no extra cost to the passenger, but good for the the conductor commision wise.
Now we are one big happy family , as long as its not an FCC only ticket, thats fine. (I'm talking about a southern train). This includes the Gatwick express tickets sold by the airlines and currency converters.

 

[MikeWh]

Even if it says NOT GATWICK EXP?

????
Back in the say when Gatwick Express was a different company if you came onto a southern train with an express ticket,you had to do a ticket exchange, at no extra cost to the passenger, but good for the the conductor commision wise.
Now we are one big happy family , as long as its not an FCC only ticket, thats fine. (I'm talking about a southern train). This includes the Gatwick express tickets sold by the airlines and currency converters.

Hi Sarah,

You've stumbled, perhaps inadvertantly, onto one of the issues this forum has a big problem with. The topic has been done to death elsewhere, but in a nutshell it boils down to this:

The NRCoC specifies that a ticket can be restricted to a route (via or not via a place) or a specific train company, where company is defined as an entity with a licence to operate trains from the DfT in accordance with the NRCoC. When Southern took over the running of Gatwick Express services the lawyers managed to miss the issue that "NOT Gatwick Exp" would no longer be a valid entry in the route field. There have been several attempts to fudge the issue, like listing Southern and Gatwick Express as separate trading names of Southern Railway Ltd in the list of companies in the NRCoC, but it doesn't alter the fact that technically it can't be done.

The experience of anyone from this forum trying to use a "Not Gatwick Exp" ticket on the Gatwick Express suggests that Southern don't want this to get ruled on in a court, because any additional fares are refunded, or often not charged in the first place.

This is why an earlier poster quipped that there's no such thing as a simple Gatwick Express query. I don't want to start the whole debate again (sorry mods if that happens) but I did want to explain why LexyBoy used the icon and that we're not having a go at you personally.

 

[dvboy]

The issue was not just with the NOT GATWICK EXP tickets, but also the SOUTHERN ONLY tickets which are approximately the same price, but likewise significantly cheaper than ANY PERMITTED.

"Gatwick Express" gateline staff at Victoria would sell you a supplement if you had a SOUTHERN ONLY wanted to travel on a "Gatwick Express" branded train (for example at 4am when trains aren't as frequent, and travelling to Gatwick Airport).

This happened to me in January 2012 - read about it in detail there if you wish, but the end result was that I not only got the supplement refunded, but also the SOUTHERN ONLY ticket that I'd originally bought.

I'm firmly of the opinion that the NOT GATWICK EXP and ANY PERMITTED tickets are the same thing and therefore the former should be scrapped, and the latter re-priced to the same value as the former, as it is essentially a rip off.

 

[island]

I think prohibiting NOT GATWICK EXP tickets on Southern trains that are fast from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria is slightly more defensible than prohibiting SOUTHERN ONLY. But not much.

 

[yorkie]

The issue was not just with the NOT GATWICK EXP tickets, but also the SOUTHERN ONLY tickets which are approximately the same price, but likewise significantly cheaper than ANY PERMITTED.

"Gatwick Express" gateline staff at Victoria would sell you a supplement if you had a SOUTHERN ONLY wanted to travel on a "Gatwick Express" branded train (for example at 4am when trains aren't as frequent, and travelling to Gatwick Airport).

Southern Only is a valid entry in the route field, and tickets are valid on services operated by Southern. Some people disagree, but the fact Southern refund everyone who gets excessed tells it all.

The "Not Gatwick Express" routeing is not a valid entry in the route field, but there is no decent 'ombudsman' / 'regulator' to enforce this. No tickets should use that routeing as it does not fit within the definition of the NRCoC.

I think prohibiting NOT GATWICK EXP tickets on Southern trains that are fast from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria is slightly more defensible than prohibiting SOUTHERN ONLY. But not much.

Agreed, though the former routeing shouldn't exist, but when it has been issued, people may reasonably be able to comply with it by avoiding that route.

In the case of the latter, travelling on any service operated by Southern is complying with the restriction (not that there's much chance of an on-board ticket check these days anyway!)

It's interesting that Southern do not charge a new ticket (which they would be entitled to, if it was a different Company's ticket, e.g. FCC Only) and instead charge a nominal excess. And equally interesting that, in all cases of the excess being charged that I know of, more than a full refund was given. Also of note is that I am not aware of anyone having such an excess issued since the on-board ticket inspections were scrapped.

 

[island]

Do the barriers for the dedicated non-stop to Gatwick Airport services at London Victoria accept SOUTHERN ONLY tickets, I wonder?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

.....but the fact Southern refund everyone who gets excessed tells it all....

Considering that the department that actually issues those refunds is the one that has a job of getting you to travel with them again after "things have gone wrong", it doesn't actually tell us anything, except, of course, that passengers can do no wrong, even when they are wrong, and screw the staff who actually try to follow the rules laid down by the railway.

The "Not Gatwick Express" routeing is not a valid entry in the route field, but there is no decent 'ombudsman' / 'regulator' to enforce this. No tickets should use that routeing as it does not fit within the definition of the NRCoC....

I sorry, but I don't recall any of the NRCoC conditions banning the use of trade names in the route field, care to point it out to me? (and then justify TPE, VWC, XC and LM).

....In the case of the latter, travelling on any service operated by Southern is complying with the restriction (not that there's much chance of an on-board ticket check these days anyway!)...

If, as you seem certain, Gatwick Express is not a train company (as defined in the NRCoC), then Southern does not have to put the prohibition on the ticket (because it is not a train company) if it wants to ban them from certain tickets.

If you are wrong and Gatwick Express is defined by the NRCoC as a train company (it is listed as one in the NRCoC definitions), then 'Southern Only' and 'Not Gatwick Express' would prohibit use on Gatwick Express services (or, if you prefer, services run under the brand (or trading name) Gatwick Express).

Regardless of either being true, is it not better to let people know of the prohibitions, rather than leave the passenger at the mercy of the evil railway people????

....It's interesting that Southern do not charge a new ticket (which they would be entitled to, if it was a different Company's ticket, e.g. FCC Only) and instead charge a nominal excess....

If the ticket were valid, they could not charge an excess, so perhaps they are simply doing everyone a favour by not issuing a new ticket????

....And equally interesting that, in all cases of the excess being charged that I know of, more than a full refund was given....

Though on a previous occasion you admitted that you could not say you knew of all people given the excess, and therefore could not say if the total you know of is 1% or 100% of all the cases, and once more we have to look at the department that issued the refund, you know, the one that wants you to travel with them again.

Do the barriers for the dedicated non-stop to Gatwick Airport services at London Victoria accept SOUTHERN ONLY tickets, I wonder?

It wouldn't make any difference to validity either way.

 

[bb21]

Let's not reopen the debate, as we're just all gonna be repeating the same things that have been said over many past threads. I doubt many people have the appetite for it any more.

Suffice to say that there is some significant disagreement between sections of the forum membership regarding this issue.

 

[Starmill]

I think its interesting that sarahj, who presumably checks the tickets of passengers going to Gatwick all the time, embraces a far simpler attitude to this mess (either FCC only or not) than certain people on both sides of this debate have shown just in the last handful of posts.

I certainly don't need to spend long thinking about which is better.

After all... it's just an Airport.

 

[transmanche]

Let's not reopen the debate [...] I doubt many people have the appetite for it any more.

Quite. I for one am utterly bored with it.

We all know how the situation came about. We all know what the intention of the different fares are. Let every man (or woman) make their own decision.

As for me, I'll just continue to use FCC!

 

[IanD]

Quite. I for one am utterly bored with it.

But at least it's got hairyhandedfool and yorkie disagreeing again

 

[radamfi]

I think its interesting that sarahj, who presumably checks the tickets of passengers going to Gatwick all the time, embraces a far simpler attitude to this mess (either FCC only or not) than certain people on both sides of this debate have shown just in the last handful of posts.

I certainly don't need to spend long thinking about which is better.

After all... it's just an Airport.

If she only works on Southern branded trains, sarahj doesn't have to worry about this issue, though, as Southern Only and Not Gatwick Express tickets are both valid on those trains. Obviously the main people who deal with this are the people at the dedicated barriers at Gatwick and Victoria. I am a regular on the extended trains to Brighton and do see RPIs now and again and I presume they would try to charge an excess, although I've never seen it.

 

[sarahj]

I do work, Gatwick Expresses, between Brighton and Gatwick. One thing, when they first came out, it was marked down that passengers, even from Brighton, needed an anypermited season and southern only was not allowed. I have to admit I've not seen this advertised on the boards at Brighton for a while, but might just be missing this. When I do check tickets on these trains, its FCC tickets I'm looking out for.

SJ
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just for further info, the are of course, on the trains themselves marked as Express. Nowhere on the train does it say Gatwick (except for route maps)