Quickest Route not permitted

[infobleep]

I wonder when the last time someone bought a London to Reddish South Ticket!

Perhaps they saw the fact the trains didn't connect well, compared to the disallowed route and decided aginast travelling.

 

[30907]

While messing around with the planner I noticed that Euston to Reddish south was only valid via one of the two routes from London to Stockport, and it was the one that connected less well with the train to reddish south.

Maybe a leftover artifact from when the reddish south train only ran in one direction?

Unless BRFares is wrong, the ticket is Any Permitted - which way is it not valid?

 

[plugwash]

I just put Euston to reddish south into the planner in the national rail enquiries app for August 15th (to get beyond the current covid mess) and it told me that the 07:20 (via Stoke-on-trent) was ticketable but the 07:33 (via crewe) was not.

Feeding the journey into the routing point calculator finds no valid routing points for reddish south (both Stockport and Guide bridge are rejected with a reason of "Travel was NOT allowed at NFM64: No fares defined at NFM64"). I guess this in turn means that the planner only thinks (rightly or wrongly) the "shortest route by rail" is valid and one of the routes from Euston to Stockport is a bit longer than the other.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Waterloo/Blundellsands/Hall Road to Wigan. Tickets are routed "any permitted". Generally, the quickest route is via Kirkby, then via Southport, and lastly via Liverpool Lime Street. NRE says that via Kirkby and via Liverpool Lime Street are valid routes, but via Southport requires multiple tickets. The problem is that the Kirkby to Wigan line does not have an evening or Sunday service: at those times NRE sends you via Liverpool Lime Street, which often takes longer than it would via Southport.

 

[Llandudno]

Waterloo/Blundellsands/Hall Road to Wigan. Tickets are routed "any permitted". Generally, the quickest route is via Kirkby, then via Southport, and lastly via Liverpool Lime Street. NRE says that via Kirkby and via Liverpool Lime Street are valid routes, but via Southport requires multiple tickets. The problem is that the Kirkby to Wigan line does not have an evening or Sunday service: at those times NRE sends you via Liverpool Lime Street, which often takes longer than it would via Southport.

In practice though if your Waterloo to Wigan ticket said any permitted would you really have the route via Southport challenged?

 

[lyndhurst25]

In practice though if your Waterloo to Wigan ticket said any permitted would you really have the route via .Southport challenged?

Probably not. I know that it's quicker and more convenient to travel via Southport, compared to via Liverpool, even if you are supposed to buy multiple tickets to go that way. However an occasional rail user, checking times and fares using thetrainline.com for example, wouldn't even be given the option of travelling via Southport, because it's not an official permitted route.

 

[yorkie]

In practice though if your Waterloo to Wigan ticket said any permitted would you really have the route via Southport challenged?

Probably not.

 

[alistairlees]

Waterloo/Blundellsands/Hall Road to Wigan. Tickets are routed "any permitted". Generally, the quickest route is via Kirkby, then via Southport, and lastly via Liverpool Lime Street. NRE says that via Kirkby and via Liverpool Lime Street are valid routes, but via Southport requires multiple tickets. The problem is that the Kirkby to Wigan line does not have an evening or Sunday service: at those times NRE sends you via Liverpool Lime Street, which often takes longer than it would via Southport.

Waterloo (Merseyside) to Wigan Wallgate, via Kirkby and changing at Sandhills, is only 21 miles and 34 chains (according to Rail Miles), which is over 4.5 miles less than Waterloo to Wigan North Western (changing at Moorfields and Liverpool Lime St; total distance 26 miles 4 chains according to Rail Miles), so I was at first surprised the route via Lime Street shows up, as only routes that are within 3 miles of the shortest distance by rail should be valid. Thinking about it though, these are the shortest distances to two separate stations (Wallgate and North Western), that should not be compared.

The route via Southport to Wigan Wallgate is 30 miles 51 chains (so over 9 miles longer than via Kirkby).

So all in all an unintended consequence of the "no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route by rail" rule.

 

[yorkie]

Yes that analysis is correct.

It could be solved if a slightly more expensive 'via Southport' fare was introduced.

Rail Delivery Group says most people wish to travel via the shortest route, and won't accept that many actually wish to travel via the fastest route.

Of course, passengers can still be assured of being offered the fastest route, by using booking sites that offers combinations of tickets (aka "split ticketing")

Thanks all for the examples so far. I am especially interested in hearing about those which are due to route restrictions e.g. 'via Blackburn' etc.

 

[lyndhurst25]

For Waterloo to Wigan, no need to complicate things by introducing more expensive a "via Southport" fare. There is no undercutting of fares here. Surely a Routeing Guide easement would be the way to go? "Passengers travelling from Waterloo Merseyside, Blundellsands, Hall Road, (etc.) to or via Wigan Stations may travel via Southport".

That would also cure the problem of Waterloo to Parbold tickets that are all crazily routed "via Wigan".
EDIT - I see that they have solved this issue and recently introduced some "via Southport" tickets for Waterloo to Parbold.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes that analysis is correct.

It could be solved if a slightly more expensive 'via Southport' fare was introduced.

Rail Delivery Group says most people wish to travel via the shortest route, and won't accept that many actually wish to travel via the fastest route.

Of course, passengers can still be assured of being offered the fastest route, by using booking sites that offers combinations of tickets (aka "split ticketing")

Thanks all for the examples so far. I am especially interested in hearing about those which are due to route restrictions e.g. 'via Blackburn' etc.

It's a bit marginal, but Maghull North to Bromley Cross is an example (at certain times/ dates).

The two fare routes are "via Manchester" and "via Wigan".

The journey options are generally:
1. via Ormskirk, Preston and Blackburn (in other words, not via either Manchester or Wigan)
2. via Liverpool, Manchester and Bolton
3. via Sandhills, Kirkby, Wigan and Bolton

On Friday 24th July with departure at 13.15:
Option 1 takes 1h 58m (3 changes)
Option 2 takes 2h 26m (3 changes)
Option 3 takes 1h 56m (4 changes)

On the other hand, if you want to go on the morning of Saturday 25th July at 07.00, National Rail doesn't offer any journeys via Kirkby / Wigan (the first one it does have is at 08.43), so it's quickest to take option (via Ormskirk / Preston / Blackburn) at 07.40 than to go via Manchester (for which there are seven journey itineraries provided by National Rail between 07.00 and 08.13, all taking either 2h 11m or 2h 26m.

 

[alistairlees]

A good example is Edale to Blythe Bridge.

The only fare route is "via Derby". This involves changing at Sheffield and Derby; journey times are between 2h 24m and 2h 50m.

It's often quicker to go via Chinley / Stockport / Stoke-on-Trent, or even via Manchester P, Crewe and Stoke-on-Trent. The former can be done in 1h 58m (maybe quicker sometimes, too).

As trains go from Edale only every hour, then it also often makes sense to head west (to Chinley / Stockport / Manchester), rather than to wait for another half an hour (or whatever), as you will get to Blythe Bridge quicker, even if the journey is a few minutes longer.