Quiet Coaches

[al78]

Trouble with "normal" conversation is that some people just naturally talk loud and make no effort to reduce their own volume as they don't realise just how loud they are.

Yes I have one of those in the office next to me. Several times my line manager has been disturbed and has told her to keep her voice down (once he told her in frustration she sounded like a foghorn).

 

[al78]

I maintain my view that very young children (under 5 or thereabouts) should not travel on long-haul flights, and ideally not on any at all, except where family circumstances make it effectively non-discretionary - that was the specific point. It's cruel to them, and unpleasant for everyone else on the flight when they inevitably get upset. The child's welfare and that of the other people on the flight must supercede the parents' wish for a long-haul holiday when their child is too young to appreciate one.

It is surely not too much to ask that parents give up far-flung holidays for just 5 years of their child's life.

FWIW, taking children on flights where they will hate all 12 hours of it (as an adult who likes to be physically active and doesn't like to sit watching the telly for 12 hours I find them boring enough) is what is inconsiderate. They didn't ask to go to Thailand (or wherever) on holiday, they are not old enough to understand. Similarly it's inconsiderate against other passengers to have a screaming child in such close quarters. This all sits with, for example, people allowing children to play TV shows out loud on trains, which seems the rule rather than the exception now with no willingness to enforce the relevant Byelaw which is there for everyone's good.

It's this lack of considerateness that is the big problem with society. People are unwilling to restrict their own activities to ensure the greater good - everyone knows their rights, and not their responsibilities. Responsibilities first, rights second, is where it should be.

I can sympathise with this view but am not sure I agree with it. The one instance I might agree with is taking babies to somewhere like Disneyworld Florida (why??). What about situations where families have overseas relatives which they have a close connection with, should the children not be allowed to build that connection in the first years of their life?

One thing to realise is that although screaming kids are annoying, it is far worse for the hapless parents who are probably trying every trick in the book to distract them, it can't be fun if your kid is throwing a wobbly and you're having that feeling that everyone in the vicinity is staring at you in a judgemental manner. I was fortunate as a child that flights didn't bother me until the descent started, when I would get bad earache and had to have sucky sweets to relieve it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can sympathise with this view but am not sure I agree with it. The one instance I might agree with is taking babies to somewhere like Disneyworld Florida (why??). What about situations where families have overseas relatives which they have a close connection with, should the children not be allowed to build that connection in the first years of their life?

Isn't that what I said?

One thing to realise is that although screaming kids are annoying, it is far worse for the hapless parents who are probably trying every trick in the book to distract them, it can't be fun if your kid is throwing a wobbly and you're having that feeling that everyone in the vicinity is staring at you in a judgemental manner. I was fortunate as a child that flights didn't bother me until the descent started, when I would get bad earache and had to have sucky sweets to relieve it.

The mind does boggle as to why they put themselves through it. It's like whole families going to supermarkets. What's the point?

 

[Esker-pades]

Isn't that what I said?



The mind does boggle as to why they put themselves through it. It's like whole families going to supermarkets. What's the point?

One can't leave young children unattended at home...

 

[Bletchleyite]

One can't leave young children unattended at home...

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

(Obviously single parents have no choice other than delivery)

 

[JohnB57]

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

Because they don’t adhere to your narrow view of how families should function in the world?

 

[Ianno87]

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

(Obviously single parents have no choice other than delivery)

Because they don’t adhere to your narrow view of how families should function in the world?

Because it's not healthy for kids to be shut up at home all day. Gets them out, experiencing life, learning, getting exercise.

And shopping is a family decision for the household. Having both parents is inportant.

 

[Ianno87]

One thing to realise is that although screaming kids are annoying, it is far worse for the hapless parents who are probably trying every trick in the book to distract them, it can't be fun if your kid is throwing a wobbly and you're having that feeling that everyone in the vicinity is staring at you in a judgemental manner.

^^^^This.

Well said.

As a parent, it makes you feel incredibly **** when even one person nearby tutts or huffs or gives you a hard stare because your child, despite everything you try, isn't being quiet. Such people (usually people who have never had kids, so have no idea) should think about how their actions make others feel.

 

[Esker-pades]

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

(Obviously single parents have no choice other than delivery)

• Or, single parents take their children to the supermarket
• Both parents are not always available to look after children all the time
• What others have said

 

[AM9]

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

(Obviously single parents have no choice other than delivery)

This discussion seems to have migrated somewhat from travel in 'quiet' coaches, through children on airplanes to children anywhere where their presence might irritate others. Yes, it can be annoying when children make their presence felt in audible ways, generally the younger they are, the less control a parent has over them doing so. In my view, it's the behaviour of their parents that differentiate between responsible control and allowing /creating an unreasoanble disturbance. Fortunately the majority fall in the former group but regrettably the few that don't seem to create an attitude of some that unless children in their proximity are almost comatose, then their family needs to be served an ASBO. As far as long-distance (and generally long duration) confinement goes, some families may even be in transit between homes. Not every family drives and to be frank, why should they have to commit young innocent children to the additional hazards of road travel.
In 2002 my son went to NZ to work for a few years. On the way out there was on toddler on the way back in 2005, the toddler was nearly school age and there was another baby in arms. The journeys were difficult, but there was no alternative, (is somebody here going to suggest coming back by passenger ship), so how should the family have dealt with it?
The simple fact is that train travel is a public transport mode for the general public. Excepting the few families who really do allow bad behaviour, for whom some censure should be dished out from rail officials, other families should be tolerated by others as much as possible. For those who have a congenital intolerance of noise/smell/etc., of anything child-like, they have many choices:

move to another area of the train
alight and take another train
use another mode of transport (car/taxi/coach/walk)
wear ear defenders/ear plugs/listen to music or any other placating sounds (via earphones of course)
just lump it if the other choices are too much trouble​

Life is too short to get that stressed about it. Rather than insisting that the world changes, learn to live with other people.
None of the above denies that there are some selfish, self entitled, self obsessed parent that demand that the rest of the population love the product of their reproductive efforts as much as they do, but to use that as an excuse to treat all families badly is more indicative of themselves than the claimed source of their ire.

 

[Llanigraham]

Why do both parents need to go to the supermarket together?

(Obviously single parents have no choice other than delivery)

Because funnily enough that is exactly how families function!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because it's not healthy for kids to be shut up at home all day. Gets them out, experiencing life, learning, getting exercise.

And shopping is a family decision for the household. Having both parents is inportant.

Decide what you're buying in advance (you know, a shopping list) then one parent takes one child and engages them properly in the shopping process - this is how my parents did it with me.

I have no issues with a whole family going round the supermarket engaging their children in the shopping process. But most of the families concerned aren't doing that - the kids are running riot, screaming and shouting while the parents eff and blind at each other about whether Tesco Value or Sainsbury's Savers Vodka would be better. You know exactly the type I mean - if you are a more responsible parent it flummoxes me that you defend them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

^^^^This.

Well said.

As a parent, it makes you feel incredibly **** when even one person nearby tutts or huffs or gives you a hard stare because your child, despite everything you try, isn't being quiet. Such people (usually people who have never had kids, so have no idea) should think about how their actions make others feel.

Maybe, then, you should take that on board and consider where, knowing how you understand their behaviour, it is right to take them?

You know, consider others before yourself?

 

[kristiang85]

Maybe, then, you should take that on board and consider where, knowing how you understand their behaviour, it is right to take them?

You know, consider others before yourself?

Indeed. Generally if you know your child is not great with travelling, then don't sit in a quiet coach surely?

When I travel with friends and I know we wi want to have a lot of conversation, we don't select the quiet coach. I'm not sure how different that is.

 

[Ianno87]

Maybe, then, you should take that on board and consider where, knowing how you understand their behaviour, it is right to take them?

You know, consider others before yourself?

He's generally fine, when entertained. Occasionally an arse. Like all children.

If people don't like the noise when he generates it, they are free to move, rather than them themselves behahving like petulant children. Ironically.

If he gets *really* bad, I do carry him out to the vestibule to calm down, so I do indeed consider others.

So are you otherwise saying I should never travel with him anywhere on the off chance that he might, at some point in the journey, make a bit of noise? People who want absolute quiet have no more or less right to be on a train than those with children, just so you are aware.

The alternative is driving him. Again, mostly fine, but occasionally not. And tryimg to drive with him screaming in the back strapped in (because he wants to get out) is distracting at best, and downright dangerous at worst.

Indeed. Generally if you know your child is not great with travelling, then don't sit in a quiet coach surely?

When I travel with friends and I know we wi want to have a lot of conversation, we don't select the quiet coach. I'm not sure how different that is.

I never sit in the quiet coach with him.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So are you otherwise saying I should never travel with him anywhere on the off chance that he might, at some point in the journey, make a bit of noise?

When did I say that?

I would say, if he's quite young, that unless you have family abroad a long-haul flight is not a place for him. But I've never said he shouldn't be on, say, a train.

 

[Ianno87]

Decide what you're buying in advance (you know, a shopping list) then one parent takes one child and engages them properly in the shopping process - this is how my parents did it with me.

When I've been at work all day, it's nice to do it with my wife as family time. And we look at other stuff, like clothes for the kids.

I have no issues with a whole family going round the supermarket engaging their children in the shopping process. But most of the families concerned aren't doing that - the kids are running riot, screaming and shouting while the parents eff and blind at each other about whether Tesco Value or Sainsbury's Savers Vodka would be better. You know exactly the type I mean - if you are a more responsible parent it flummoxes me that you defend them.

"Most" families?! Literally never seen such behaviour you describe in a supermarket... and I worked for one for 4 years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Most" families?! Literally never seen such behaviour you describe in a supermarket... and I worked for one for 4 years.

I suspect this may vary a lot depending on the nature of the area where you live.

 

[JohnB57]

You know, consider others before yourself?

Just like you seem determined not to do.

 

[Ianno87]

When did I say that?

I would say, if he's quite young, that unless you have family abroad a long-haul flight is not a place for him. But I've never said he shouldn't be on, say, a train.

Except that he was absolutely fine on the long haul flight. In Flight Entertainment helps with this too.

It's the parents' judgement what is and is not appropriate for their children, not yours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's the parents' judgement what is and is not appropriate for their children, not yours.

I have the right to hold an opinion, I cannot of course force you to comply with it, but I have every right to share and discuss that opinion, particularly in cases where children who clearly do not want to be somewhere cause a disturbance.

 

[al78]

The mind does boggle as to why they put themselves through it. It's like whole families going to supermarkets. What's the point?

It is possible they are stopping at the supermarket en-route too or from somewhere where they all needed to go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is possible they are stopping at the supermarket en-route too or from somewhere where they all needed to go.

In which case, quick shopping is a priority - "I'll just wait in the car with the kids/go for a walk round town with them/to the park/whatever, can you go round and quickly grab the shopping"?

 

[JohnB57]

I think we're all quickly learning who the world really does revolve around. This is painful to read.

 

[al78]

I suspect this may vary a lot depending on the nature of the area where you live.

Yes, but just because someone may make obsevations which sticks in their mind, it is a logical fallacy to project that onto everywhere else outside your field of vision. This seems to be a common issue, people think their daily experiences are the same everywhere and don't stop to consider that what they observe is a teeny tiny view of a much bigger world with high variance. It is one problem with being judgemental, don't pass judgement on someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes (then you will be a mile away from them and have their shoes). Egocentrism.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think we're all quickly learning who the world really does revolve around. This is painful to read.

It's painful that I'd rather engage kids in something they are interested in than drag them kicking and screaming round a supermarket where all they are doing is shouting about wanting sweets and generally not enjoying the experience?

It's more painful watching families who just all go there by default and it is clearly an awful experience for the lot of them not to mention everyone else.

 

[al78]

I have the right to hold an opinion,

So does everyone else, which includes an opinion on your opinion. If you post a controversial opinion on a public forum, you should not be surprised if you experience retaliation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So does everyone else, which includes an opinion on your opinion. If you post a controversial opinion on a public forum, you should not be surprised if you experience retaliation.

Where did I say I had a problem? I'm engaging in discussion on the matter.

 

[JohnB57]

Where did I say I had a problem? I'm engaging in discussion on the matter.

You didn't say it - you just provided the evidence.

My observation of families out in the world is that the overwhelming majority are working just fine but if they occasionally burst your bubble, that would seem to be your problem, not theirs. We went all over with our children and continue to with theirs and it's rare to have or to see the kind of issues that you infer are common. That's not an opinion, it's a fact.

 

[43096]

I think we're all quickly learning who the world really does revolve around. This is painful to read.

I think we are. For the avoidance of doubt, it’s all about those parents who can’t control their kids. How dare anyone criticise them and the nuisance they cause to others.