How long ago did you get the rejection of the second stage appeal?
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Racism in issuing Penalty Fare Notice
- Thread starter HeyCiao
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
The others were only asked to pay the price of the ticket, so discretion were applied to them, and not on me and the lady.
I don't know if they had body worn cameras
Knoodlepot
Member
Sorry to ask. But was it before or after you were issued the Penalty Fare?
8 days ago, so I have until 1st August to make the final appeal.
The inspectors told us they understood our situation and they would issue a PFN with the price of the ticket ONLY (which is £12.40).
So we all queued to get our PFN, and whilst mine was being printed after giving my details, I realised I was being fined (so my receipt shows £112.40, which is price of the train ticket + fine).
So people before me in the queue weren't issued a fine, same for those behind me.
The other lady was queueing too, and was one of the last ones. I realised she was fined too when I got in the minibus and she approached me to tell me. Until then, I thought I was the only one.
Last edited:
I struggle to accept that this was a deliberate racist act simply because if it was, then it's so blatant. Had you not appeared to be part of the group then I could understand it.
Though I certainly sympathise with your position, I wouldn't be confident that any allegations of racism will necessarily assist you with your Penalty Fare appeal. It is likely something to pursue via customer services - and possibly the Equality and Human Rights Commission (?) if customer services doesn't provide you with a satisfactory response - rather than the Penalty Fares appeals body.
In terms of your third-stage Penalty Fare appeal, you want to be raising any potential grounds that could apply, for example:
You could thus decide that you'll let SWR take you to the County Court if they want to recover what you view as a Penalty Fare imposed under questionable circumstances. I'm not endorsing this approach, but it is an option you might decide to take.
We have never heard of a train company taking an unpaid PF to the County Court; that being said, the possibility of future change of approach (either now, or in the next 6 years - the civil statute of limitations) can't be eliminated.
It's more likely, in our experience, that a train company would incorrectly (and unlawfully) prosecute you in such circumstances. As you have appealed your Penalty Fare, Regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations legally bars them from prosecuting you for most of the offences you could be accused of having committed: a breach of the Railway Byelaws 2005, or section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA).
In theory, Regulation 11(3) doesn't bar a prosecution under section 5(1) of RoRA, but having given your name and address and having offered to pay the fare, you are unambiguously innocent of any offence under that section. There is an ongoing legal case rumbling on in the Westminster Magistrates' Court which concerns unfounded prosecutions under s5(1) RoRA, amongst other things (see this forum thread). Suffice it to say that SWR would be extremely foolish to try it on with any prosecution under the circumstances.
In terms of your third-stage Penalty Fare appeal, you want to be raising any potential grounds that could apply, for example:
- Compelling reason no. 1 - that you were penalised whereas others in your group were not, even though you all made the same mistake (this is a discretionary ground of appeal and I don't think that adding in allegations of racism will assist you in it)
- Compelling reason no. 2 - that there would be no logical reason for you to touch in if you were trying to avoid the fare, since Virginia Water has ticket barriers which are (one would assume) in operation during the bulk of the day, where you would inevitably be "caught"
- Compelling reason no. 3 - that you were confused by the extensions of contactless to Virginia Water and thought that this had already taken place, based on what you had read (any sources you can cite to back this up will help)
- Signage requirements - that you believe the signage at Waterloo does not meet the Penalty Fares Regulation's requirement to be "readily visible" at each entrance to the station platforms. I am adding this one in from personal experience - I seem to recall the signage is only displayed in very small form on the wall above the barriers, where nobody would think to look when they're passing through the barriers. Of course I could be mistaken or there may be PF signage elsewhere, but it's worth a shot in my view.
You could thus decide that you'll let SWR take you to the County Court if they want to recover what you view as a Penalty Fare imposed under questionable circumstances. I'm not endorsing this approach, but it is an option you might decide to take.
We have never heard of a train company taking an unpaid PF to the County Court; that being said, the possibility of future change of approach (either now, or in the next 6 years - the civil statute of limitations) can't be eliminated.
It's more likely, in our experience, that a train company would incorrectly (and unlawfully) prosecute you in such circumstances. As you have appealed your Penalty Fare, Regulation 11(3) of the Penalty Fares Regulations legally bars them from prosecuting you for most of the offences you could be accused of having committed: a breach of the Railway Byelaws 2005, or section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RoRA).
In theory, Regulation 11(3) doesn't bar a prosecution under section 5(1) of RoRA, but having given your name and address and having offered to pay the fare, you are unambiguously innocent of any offence under that section. There is an ongoing legal case rumbling on in the Westminster Magistrates' Court which concerns unfounded prosecutions under s5(1) RoRA, amongst other things (see this forum thread). Suffice it to say that SWR would be extremely foolish to try it on with any prosecution under the circumstances.
What can I say.. I didn't think it was racism until the other East Asian lady told me she was fined too.
And I am the first one who wants to be sure that it was discrimination if someone calls it out, as I'm aware that sometimes is just an overstatement.
I don't like thinking that it was, but it's the conclusion I could come up to given what happened.
They clearly understood we were part of the same group, as we were chatting.
Iskra
Established Member
Just because you were charged and other people were not, does not make it definitively racism. Firstly, the fine was legitimate whether you like it or not. Secondly, it could well be that the inspector decided not to exercise discretion for a number of reasons, which may not be race-related. The most likely one is perceived ‘poor attitude’.
While it is an unfortunate incident, I think you’re going to struggle to get anywhere with this one.
My phone/card was checked by an inspector while I was travelling in the train, so there is evidence. (He just didn't ask me where I was heading to, cause if I knew at that moment, I would have gladly pay my ticket or fine - not happy to pay a fine as a result of different treatment though).
And when I go to my TFL account, it shows that I touched in. This was also attached as evidence in my first appeal.
Fair enough.
Queuing silently and politely is poor attitude?
Please let me know, what attitude is then accepted
I don't think @Iskra is necessarily implying that you exhibited that attitude, but just that it can be a common reason for discretion not to be exercised by staff.
Thanks for your response.
I already stated reasons 1,2 and 3 in the first stage appeal. I also provided the following evidence:
- PFN copy of others in the same group without fine
- Screenshot of my TFL account showing I touched in. I explained the exact same thing you said in reason n. 2, adding that my phone/card was also checked during my travel by another inspector. And he didn't ask me what my destination was, reinforcing my belief that I could touch out at Virginia Water.
- Screenshots of the websites I had read about Virginia Water, explaining the same thing you suggested in reason n. 3
- Screenshot of the email job bookings of me and the other lady as evidence we were travelling together as part of the same working group.
I didn't mention about the signage requirements, but I think it won't be useful in this case.
I read about fines, not sure if it was at the station or in the train (I don't remember), the fact is I know fines can be issued, that's why I am mostly careful and now shocked for the treatment.
Racism wasn't the only point raised in my appeals, but they still were unsuccessful.
Yeah sorry.. I assumed @Iskra read all posts where I also replied on questions about my attitude. He might not have read my replies...
Thanks - I missed it.
That, albeit in much more very useful detail, is about where l am. I would suggest, @HeyCiao, that you have a stab at drafting something and post it here for suggested amendments/improvements. In particular it would be beneficial for @Hadders to have seen it.
If the appeal is rejected my suggestion would be to pay the company the money and then bring the roof down on them - media, politicians, the Equality Commission - the whole nine yards.....
If, and l must stress this, the facts are as you say then l personally bet that you will get not only a refund but a grovelling apology too. Very senior people hate finding themselves having to deal with this sort of issue unnecessarily.
I replied already to the message that's been quoted, but is waiting for moderator approval.
So let me try to copy and paste it here:
"Thanks for your response.
I already stated reasons 1,2 and 3 in the first stage appeal. I also provided the following evidence:
- PFN copy of others in the same group without fine
- Screenshot of my TFL account showing I touched in. I explained the exact same thing you said in reason n. 2, adding that my phone/card was also checked during my travel by another inspector. And he didn't ask me what my destination was, reinforcing my belief that I could touch out at Virginia Water.
- Screenshots of the websites I had read about Virginia Water, explaining the same thing you suggested in reason n. 3
- Screenshot of the email job bookings of me and the other lady as evidence we were travelling together as part of the same working group.
I didn't mention about the signage requirements, but I think it won't be useful in this case.
I read about fines, not sure if it was at the station or in the train (I don't remember), the fact is I know fines can be issued, that's why I am mostly careful and now shocked for the treatment.
Racism wasn't the only point raised in my appeals, but they still were unsuccessful."
Will write a draft of my third appeal here in the following days to show you, thanks so much
Each of your three appeals will be assessed by a different person, or in the case of your third stage appeal, a panel which should (in theory) have no-one in common with the assessors used for the first two stages.
Therefore, just because you have been unsuccessful at the first two stages, this does not necessarily mean that a third stage appeal - even largely on the same grounds - will necessarily fail.
I would encourage you to persist with the signage-based appeal, as it is the only 'factual'/logical appeal point. Unless the train company provides evidence that sufficiently rebuts your claims, the appeals panel is obliged to allow your appeal; by contrast, the 'compelling reasons' appeals are down to their discretion.
The signage appeal is not an appeal on the basis that the Penalty Fare was necessarily morally unfair, but simply that the train company did not comply with the necessary legal prerequisites to issuing Penalty Fares.
If you provide us with your draft third-stage appeal wording, we can provide you with feedback on any changes you may wish to make to maximise your chances of a successful appeal. And as mentioned, a denied third-stage appeal is not the end of the matter and does not directly force you to pay.
I would pursue the racism allegations separately; it may be that, if your allegations lead to some form of investigation or other intervention, SWR proactively cancel the Penalty Fare even if your appeal is denied.
Oh, I didn't know appeals were assessed by different people.
Yes, I will post a draft.
Thanks so much
This is tricky since the option given to you is legitimate and even a brief look at some similar threads (such as one for those going to Royal Ascot) will indicate that what I will presume to be white heritage people are also getting Penalty Fares, including the £50 / £100 extra on fares under £5. So I would be surprised if the next appeal works, they will simply say "is this a correct outcome?" and it is.
Having said that, I too have been struck by what seems like a high percentage of complaints on this forum appear to be from non white people - many overseas students feature on these pages. It feels disproportionate, as a very general and uneasy feeling. And I'm happy to identify as someone who is white and not a leftie either. I can rationalise it to a degree, for example those students probably don't have cars and will therefore be over-represented in the train travelling public, and may also be less able to understand the monumental complexity of ticketing. But suffice to say that I suspect there is more than a whiff or racism in this, and unfortunately, many other spheres of life.
Having said that, I too have been struck by what seems like a high percentage of complaints on this forum appear to be from non white people - many overseas students feature on these pages. It feels disproportionate, as a very general and uneasy feeling. And I'm happy to identify as someone who is white and not a leftie either. I can rationalise it to a degree, for example those students probably don't have cars and will therefore be over-represented in the train travelling public, and may also be less able to understand the monumental complexity of ticketing. But suffice to say that I suspect there is more than a whiff or racism in this, and unfortunately, many other spheres of life.
The problem is that many actions that have that whiff of racism can also be sufficiently explained by non-racist explanations. As you say, for example, there has been an uptick in the number of non-EU foreign students for many of whom English is a second language, and most of whom don't have railways that operate similarly to the UK. So they may appear to be disproportionately represented in the cases we see here simply through misunderstandings.
Could it be racism? Yes. Is it conclusively due to racism? Unfortunately there isn't strong enough evidence to reach that level of certainty.
You might be right. My personal view is that its possibly more to do with perceived low hanging fruit and an easy win
The fact the inspector in this case didn’t even tell the OP they were being penalty fared until they saw the enormous sum pop out of their machine would suggest to me that the inspector considered the Asian customer to be low hanging fruit. But I wasn’t there so we simply don’t know.
You probably didn't read what I posted, as I am the FIRST ONE who haven't thought about this situation as a case of racism.
When that happened, it simply didn't cross my mind. I thought there was only an irrational mistake.
Until later, when another East Asian lady from the same group approached me to tell me she was fined too. And we were the only two Asians. That's when the situation became rational, or at least, there was a reason behind it.
As a non-leftie myself too, before making any claim of racism, I'd be extremely careful, and I am completely against using race as a tool of complaint. (Also, made me smile reading that you "identify as someone who is white and not a leftie either" - the term "identify" is extremely leftie, and you don't identify as white, you ARE white. The term is just laughable, and why you're using it if you seem to be against this sort of beliefs?).
And just for the sake of clarity, my heritage yes, is East-Asian, but I was born and raised in the West, so I understand fully the complexity of ticketing, as you mentioned. So it seems to me that yours was an attempt to water down your criticism with a 'polite rationalisation' of the phenomenon you are describing. Whether this is a right or wrong reading, I just want to make clear, that I am not part of that phenomenon you describe. I am not one of those who identifies and want others to identify me as an oppressed victim.
I don't call out racism for convenience, I call it when there is.
And before arriving to this conclusion, I carefully evaluated the details of the situation (as described in my posts in this thread).
This is for @SteveM70 too.
Could be. Asian and woman is a great combo for perceived low hanging fruit, especially for older generations (like the inspector who fined me and believed not giving any clarification on the situation and shouting was enough.)
I don't want to fully endorse it, but this is a fact, unfortunately.
I would suggest that your third appeal includes all the evidence you have previously provided - do not assume that your case notes are all passed on.
If you use @Watershed 's Compelling Reason 1, I would set out clearly how your group got treated differently by the same inspector, including the fact that the other Asian Lady was not even behind you, but further back.
For the Penalty Fare notices, this sets out the legal requirements - you may want to quote the Act "The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018"
There are two separate issues for notices.
1) Incorrect wording (which you quoted)
2) Incorrect placement (which is what @Watershed highlighted here)
Use both if you can. (There's a secondary issue with the wording, as it might also be argued that the prescribed words "for your intended journey" misrepresent the regulations.)
I assume OP is talking about this: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/train-tickets/smart-ticketing/contactless-payg-extension
Last edited by a moderator:
HullRailMan
Member
- Joined
- 8 Oct 2018
- Messages
- 424
The only person who can adequately explain why they decided to issue penalty fares to some people and not others is the person that issued them. None of us were there and only one version and interpretation of events had been presented, so it would be completely inappropriate to suggest anyone behaved in a certain way for a specific reason without knowing what was going through their minds. Of course there is a perception of unfairness, and there’s no harm in raising that as a complaint. However, accusing someone of potentialy criminal discrimination is quite an accusation.
We shouldn't assume anything. People use Google in different ways. Only the OP can answer this.