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Radioactive Waste

Richard Scott

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This has come up in Russia invading Ukraine thread where suggestion about relying on cheap oil and gas from Russia could be overcome by small nuclear power plants but are these the answer?
Nuclear waste remains radioactive effectively for ever but dwindles over thousands of years until can be considered safe. Are we leaving anu wanted legacy for future generations by using nuclear power now?
 
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Gloster

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I am afraid that that is exactly the situation. We are so full of how lucky we are to have this cheap and clean power source, that we completely ignore that it has a very serious disadvantage: the long-term difficulties of keeping the waste safe and the catastrophic dangers if something goes wrong with these arrangements. And that ignores the risks caused by terrorists or rogue states: dirty bomb in Wardour Street, anyone? But, hey, that’ll be for our children to deal with, so let’s just make use of it to keep us comfortable now.
 

Sorcerer

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Spent nuclear fuel can be recycled and used multiple times over it's lifespan, and while a valid concern the issue of spent nuclear fuel (or "waste" if you will) is not as big as some of the naysayers will have you believe. It can be stored on site and in a secure location elsewhere and doesn't require vast amounts of land to do so. It's not perfect, but when compared to the waste produced by other energy sources, it's relatively minor, especially when it comes to oil and gas where the waste product is simply released into the atmosphere.
 

Strathclyder

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If you're talking about nuclear power plants, it's pretty hard to get them to go boom. And even when they do, it's a thermal explosion rather than a nuclear one.
Aye, which is what is generally agreed upon to be what the explosion(s) at Chernobyl were at their core (pun intended).

Helped along by pre-existing design flaws, known reactor behavior at low power levels and a cascading series of operator errors and external events in the 24 hours or so leading up to 1:23 AM (all a result to varying degrees of the general culture of keeping any flaws/problems with the design under wraps, even from the people responsible for running the damn things, that came to define the USSR as a whole), all the water in the core flashed to steam instantaneously, the resulting pressure blasting the reactor lid (in RBMKs, this is known as the UPS or Upper Biological Shield) off like a wine cork and through the roof of the reactor hall, throwing most of the reactor's contents out into the immediate surroundings, destroying the reactor hall & exposing what was left of the core to the atmosphere, sparking several fires. It couldn't be more different to, say, a nuclear bomb like Trinity going off in terms of the mechanics and physics involved.

However, as is well-known, the RBMK is a design unique to the former Soviet Union - our own Magnox and AGR designs also use/used graphite as a moderator, but both were cooled by gas, not water, therefore eliminating a key factor in the Chernobyl disaster; Hunterston was never gonna go up in the same way even in the worst case scenario despite all the media hysteria at the time - and the series of modifications made to the remaining RBMKs after reactor #4's destruction make a repeat highly unlikely. Additionally, the remaining reactors in Russia have gradually been shut down as they reach the end of their operational lifespan; 4 have been shut down since 2018 (two each at Kursk & Leningrad).
 
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JamesT

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It’s only the
Spent nuclear fuel can be recycled and used multiple times over it's lifespan, and while a valid concern the issue of spent nuclear fuel (or "waste" if you will) is not as big as some of the naysayers will have you believe. It can be stored on site and in a secure location elsewhere and doesn't require vast amounts of land to do so. It's not perfect, but when compared to the waste produced by other energy sources, it's relatively minor, especially when it comes to oil and gas where the waste product is simply released into the atmosphere.
Or various heavy metals used in the manufacture of solar panels. Unlike nuclear waste, these will be toxic forever.
I find https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy to be a useful reference on the relative risks of different power sources.
 

GRALISTAIR

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This has come up in Russia invading Ukraine thread where suggestion about relying on cheap oil and gas from Russia could be overcome by small nuclear power plants but are these the answer?
Nuclear waste remains radioactive effectively for ever but dwindles over thousands of years until can be considered safe. Are we leaving anu wanted legacy for future generations by using nuclear power now?
When I was doing my Masters at Imperial College London 30 years ago in The Corrosion/Degradation of Engineering Materials, huge research programs on suitable containment were already happening. I am confident a solution will be found.
 

najaB

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When I was doing my Masters at Imperial College London 30 years ago in The Corrosion/Degradation of Engineering Materials, huge research programs on suitable containment were already happening. I am confident a solution will be found.
Take the highest activity level material, vitrify it, encase it in concrete, put that in platinum-plated titanium casks and place them a few thousand feet down a mine in a granite mountain and fill the whole thing with concrete when the mine shafts are filled.
 

Richard Scott

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Take the highest activity level material, vitrify it, encase it in concrete, put that in platinum-plated titanium casks and place them a few thousand feet down a mine in a granite mountain and fill the whole thing with concrete when the mine shafts are filled.
If it was that easy and was a cheap solution I'm sure they'd have done it by now.
 

danielnez1

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One possible way treating of nuclear waste is to transmutate it, which would shorten the necessary storage time of the waste.

Sadly the "green lobby" has done a lot of damage to what is the largest producer of low carbon energy, and as a result, the new stations being built at the likes of Hinkley are less thermally efficient and safe than our older Advanced Gas Cooled reactor fleet, due to the decline in R&D over the years due to lobbying resulting in a slow down of new builds.
 

najaB

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If it was that easy and was a cheap solution I'm sure they'd have done it by now.
That's pretty much what the plan was for Yuca Mountain in the USA, until anti-nuclear activists got in the way. Now they're back to storing the waste in open pools of water.
 

Giugiaro

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When I was doing my Masters at Imperial College London 30 years ago in The Corrosion/Degradation of Engineering Materials, huge research programs on suitable containment were already happening. I am confident a solution will be found.

The technical solution has already been found. What we are lacking is a political solution, mainly about who and where the MLNW (Medium-Level Nuclear Waste) is going to be stored long-term.

HLNW (High-Level Nuclear Waste) never leaves the facility where it's produced because it needs to be cooled long enough to be suitable for long-term storage as MLNW (MLNW is previously highly radioactive material that does not emit high levels of thermal energy anymore).
Recycling HLNW produces both reliable nuclear fuel pellets and MLNW. The French recycling plant already has a vault of vitrified MLNW, and it's insane just how compact it turns out to be.

The biggest concern with recycling HLNW is with the production of Plutonium as a sub-product.
Not going down the nuclear weapon path, Plutonium can be used as a highly efficient nuclear fuel for specifically designed uranium-plutonium (U-Pu) fission reactors.
The Plutonium can then be fissioned down and turned into energy, but U-Pu pellets can't be recycled after being spent.

LLNW (Low-Level Nuclear Waste) poses the biggest challenge, as this is made up of materials contaminated with radio-isotopes. They come from all sorts of origins, including:
  • Cancer treatment medicine, expendables, and PPI from health services;
  • PPI, waste products, and instruments from industries;
  • Slag and waste products from ore extraction and refinement;
  • Ash and slag from fossil fuel refinement and energy production.
 

randyrippley

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The issue no-one seems to recognise is the threat posed by the next ice age.
We're in an interglacial period at the moment, but at some time over the next few thousand years that will change. Any surface storage unit will get destroyed and the contents widely dispersed by the advancing glaciers causing massive contamination.

Only two ways of resolving the problem:
1) Bury it deep in an oceanic tectonic subduction zone so it gets carried down toward the earths core.
2) Stick it in rockets and lob it into the sun.
 

m0ffy

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One possible way treating of nuclear waste is to transmutate it, which would shorten the necessary storage time of the waste.

Sadly the "green lobby" has done a lot of damage to what is the largest producer of low carbon energy, and as a result, the new stations being built at the likes of Hinkley are less thermally efficient and safe than our older Advanced Gas Cooled reactor fleet, due to the decline in R&D over the years due to lobbying resulting in a slow down of new builds.

We started the move to Pressurised Water Reactors back in the 90s. Sizewell B is the first and only PWR currently running in the UK, and it was one of Nuclear Electric’s last projects prior to privatisation.
 

JamesT

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The issue no-one seems to recognise is the threat posed by the next ice age.
We're in an interglacial period at the moment, but at some time over the next few thousand years that will change. Any surface storage unit will get destroyed and the contents widely dispersed by the advancing glaciers causing massive contamination.

Only two ways of resolving the problem:
1) Bury it deep in an oceanic tectonic subduction zone so it gets carried down toward the earths core.
2) Stick it in rockets and lob it into the sun.
It’s very much considered, which is why the long term storage sites are buried in geologically stable rock formations.
In thousands of years much of the waste will have decayed to be far less harm.
Firing it into the Sun is fairly crazy. Rockets do fail explosively, which would scatter nuclear waste over a large area.
 

najaB

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Firing it into the Sun is fairly crazy. Rockets do fail explosively, which would scatter nuclear waste over a large area.
Not to mention that lowering the periapsis of an orbit so that it intersects the sun is *very* energetically expensive. A direct injection needs something on the order of 25km/s delta-V, which is why solar probes have such long flight paths involving multiple gravity assists.

Quick back of the envelope calculation and bearing in mind the tyranny of the rocket equation, getting 1kg of material into the sun on a direct trajectory would require something like 800t of propellant.
 

4COR

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Correct, firing anything into the sun is monumentally hard/costly in terms of energy required - it's not that the sun doesn't have a huge gravity well, it's just you need to a) get it (and fuel) off the surface first, and then b) lose a huge amount of the inherent orbital speed which comes from launching off a rock already travelling at an orbital speed of 67000mph...
 

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