RAIB Bulletins do TOC's Read Them? Is Yellow The New Orange

[blacknight]

Following a near miss at Seaburn station in 2010 RAIB went to great lengths to produce a report. Now following weekend snow fall this picture appears in media of snow clearance at another station. Have TOC's now changed colour of railway Hi Viz

 

[Schnellzug]

poor sod decides to try to do something helpful, and before you know it he's being Crucified for not following RAIB Instructions.
Is it any wonder people decide not to bother these days in case someone snitches on them to the Media.

 

[driver9000]

Orange is still the colour when on the line. A platform isn't considered being on or near the line but some TOCs like platform staff to be in HV to be visible to passengers.

 

[Dave A]

As far as I'm aware, the only TOC's that require station staff to be in Orange Hi-Vis' are those who have to go "On or near the line", in line with their regular duties (ie attach or detach units).

 

[blacknight]

Orange is still the colour when on the line. A platform isn't considered being on or near the line but some TOCs like platform staff to be in HV to be visible to passengers.

Except when working within 1.25m of platform edge from a drivers eye view what do you see
A Trained member of staff in non standard Hi Viz or B possibly poorly trained contractor endangering themselves? A repeat of Seaburn Incident

 

[ralphchadkirk]

So you would prefer a possibly poor contractor in an orange hivi? It seems that if it was orange you'd am have nothing to complain about.


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[Geezertronic]

Maybe the fact that passengers could have slipped on the smow injuring themselves on the platform or god forbid the track was more important than the guys colour choice of Hi Viz when he was clearing the platform of snow...

 

[blacknight]

So you would prefer a possibly poor contractor in an orange hivi? It seems that if it was orange you'd am have nothing to complain about.

No in an ideal world all railway staff would be BR employees dressed in correct PPE & PTS trained.
Until that date we have to make do with present system & put faith in that management have an up to date risk assessment & a SSOW for task in hand.

 

[driver9000]

Except when working within 1.25m of platform edge from a drivers eye view what do you see
A Trained member of staff in non standard Hi Viz or B possibly poorly trained contractor endangering themselves? A repeat of Seaburn Incident

A contractor working on a platform within 1.25m would be wearing full railway PPE. Platform staff are not required to wear HV.

 

[blacknight]

A contractor working on a platform within 1.25m would be wearing full railway PPE. Platform staff are not required to wear HV.

Contract cleaners were clearing platforms at Saltburn & certainly not dress in full PPE at time of that incident

 

[driver9000]

Contract cleaners were clearing platforms at Saltburn & certainly not dress in full PPE at time of that incident

I wouldn't know about that, I answered your original question in that orange is still the railway colour for PPE when on or near the line. Platform staff are not required to wear HV although some TOCs like them to. I have seen First staff wearing yellow vests. I do not know why these cleaners were not wearing their gear.

 

[tsr]

Yellow is not the new orange. Orange is used for psychological reasons: a hazard stands out more in most people's minds if it is orange! Thus yellow high-visibility clothing will probably only be for identifying TOC staff to passengers, similar to the blue vests that NR sometimes seem to give their staff at the stations they run.

I do not see why all high-visibility clothing used both on station platforms as well as when on or near the track should not be orange and GO/RT specifications compliant. If everyone is wearing such clothing, it might reduce confusion and questions such as the ones in this thread.

 

[the sniper]

Are T&W Metro station staff PTS trained? I seem to remember that some TOCs don't train their station staff nowadays, but they're expected to clear platforms of snow, lay grit and pick up litter, thus working 'on or near the line', as they're working within 1.25m on the platform.

 

[scrapy]

Are T&W Metro station staff PTS trained? I seem to remember that some TOCs don't train their station staff nowadays, but they're expected to clear platforms of snow, lay grit and pick up litter, thus working 'on or near the line', as they're working within 1.25m on the platform.

You are not defined as on or near the line when on a station platform, no matter how close to the edge you are.

 

[Hydro]

You are not defined as on or near the line when on a station platform, no matter how close to the edge you are.

You are if carrying out engineering or technical work within 1.25m of the platform edge.

 

[Badger]

Am I the only one more worried about him dumping snow on the tracks than him not wearing orange?

 

[CosherB]

Orange hi viz stands out well against a green background so is used on the track so wearers can be seen against trees, fields etc.

Yellow hi viz works well against an urban background so is worn by police, airport apron workers etc.

However, far too many people wear hi viz when it's not appropriate, which makes it less effective in protecting those that do need to be seen in potentially dangerous situations; a track worker should definately be in hi viz, but it's entirely innappropriate for ticket barrier staff, for instance.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

However, far too many people wear hi viz when it's not appropriate, which makes it less effective in protecting those that do need to be seen in potentially dangerous situations; a track worker should definately be in hi viz, but it's entirely innappropriate for ticket barrier staff, for instance.

Speaking of inappropriate hi-vi wearing, I saw a driving instructor wearing one today! What's the point of that?

 

[Flamingo]

Stations I pass through, the platform / dispatch staff wear yellow or orange HiVis, depending on the grade they are.

As said, "working" means technical or engineering work. I would argue that snow clearing would come under the heading of cleaning, (which although at times a skilled job) would not usually come under the heading of technical or engineering.

 

[the sniper]

You are if carrying out engineering or technical work within 1.25m of the platform edge.

Stations I pass through, the platform / dispatch staff wear yellow or orange HiVis, depending on the grade they are.

As said, "working" means technical or engineering work. I would argue that snow clearing would come under the heading of cleaning, (which although at times a skilled job) would not usually come under the heading of technical or engineering.

Ahh OK. I thought the rules only stipulated 'working', I didn't know it defined that as engineering or technical work. I think it's the LU rules that define working as anything other than walking.

 

[Aictos]

poor sod decides to try to do something helpful, and before you know it he's being Crucified for not following RAIB Instructions.
Is it any wonder people decide not to bother these days in case someone snitches on them to the Media.

Fact, staff are NOT permitted to just shovel snow onto the tracks when snow clearing the platforms as it forms a hazard to trains, staff at FCC at least are encourage to shovel snow away from the track and make sure the platform edges and yellow lines are clearly visable.

Therefore, it's simply down to poor management that the guy got a rocket.

As far as I'm aware, the only TOC's that require station staff to be in Orange Hi-Vis' are those who have to go "On or near the line", in line with their regular duties (ie attach or detach units).

First require ALL their station staff to wear Orange/Yellow Hi-Vis regardless as it's a First Group policy even if they have nothing to do with shunting but are simply there for customer service.

A contractor working on a platform within 1.25m would be wearing full railway PPE. Platform staff are not required to wear HV.

Very true however First are different, see my post above.

Am I the only one more worried about him dumping snow on the tracks than him not wearing orange?

No you are not the only one, I'm concerned with what briefing/training he got for that location.

 

[ainsworth74]

Speaking of inappropriate hi-vi wearing, I saw a driving instructor wearing one today! What's the point of that?

It was probably an examiner testing the learner rather than the instructor giving a lesson.

 

[tsr]

It was probably an examiner testing the learner rather than the instructor giving a lesson.

Seconded. You can often tell when an examiner is in the car by looking out for high-visibility clothing. Except for the "show me - tell me" vehicle maintenance/checking questions, which take place on a public highway (where the test centre has very little parking), I don't see why this is really necessary.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

It was probably an examiner testing the learner rather than the instructor giving a lesson.

Unless part of the driving test is round the local College carpark it wasn't a test. Even so, why would an examiner need a hivis?

 

[tsr]

No you are not the only one, I'm concerned with what briefing/training he got for that location.

Best practice for manually clearing public highways and other areas seeing pedestrian or vehicle usage is that snow should be cleared away from any area where it is likely to constitute a hazard to reasonable pedestrian and vehicle movements. The same goes for railways, I should think, and therefore I share your concerns too. That said, long narrow platforms with limited space for piles of snow could pose a problem - is a slip hazard more of a risk to pedestrians, particularly the elderly or disabled, than snow on the line is to trains? Platform constraints probably don't apply in this situation!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless part of the driving test is round the local College carpark it wasn't a test. Even so, why would an examiner need a hivis?

They may be working in an area where frequent vehicle movements take place, as I detailed above, and you never know when a bit of extra visibility may alert a driver, rider or whoever else to your presence before they crash into you. Simple.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

They may be working in an area where frequent vehicle movements take place, as I detailed above, and you never know when a bit of extra visibility may alert a driver, rider or whoever else to your presence before they crash into you. Simple.

People manage to walk through carparks everyday without getting hit. You do not need a hivis for that. I'm not the sort of person to use this cliche, but that really IS health and safety gone mad.

 

[tsr]

People manage to walk through carparks everyday without getting hit. You do not need a hivis for that. I'm not the sort of person to use this cliche, but that really IS health and safety gone mad.

I'm not suggesting the instructor/examiner/whoever actually needed it in the car park! If they are working on a busy road, it could be more of a risk.

That said, I direct traffic in car parks (with increasing regularity) for various community events, in addition to sometimes (not often) needing to use traffic management skills in emergency situations. Infrequently, it has been wholly unnecessary to wear high-visibility clothing, for example to speak to drivers whilst standing on a pavement area protected by fixed obstacles. Normally, though, high-visibility clothing is used as standard, in order that drivers can see that they will be marshalled and so they can see where the marshall is when reversing or undertaking other manoeuvres. Pedestrians who are not trained in traffic management and/or not using the appropriate PPE will be directed well away from traffic.

High-visibility clothing is an effective way to attract attention to your inherently vulnerable self, with the side effect that drivers do not need to worry so much about not seeing you. Vehicles can still pose hazards to people at low speeds, in good visibility and in good road and weather conditions.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That said, I direct traffic in car parks (with increasing regularity) for various community events, in addition to sometimes (not often) needing to use traffic management skills in emergency situations. Infrequently, it has been wholly unnecessary to wear high-visibility clothing, for example to speak to drivers whilst standing on a pavement area protected by fixed obstacles. Normally, though, high-visibility clothing is used as standard, in order that drivers can see that they will be marshalled and so they can see where the marshall is when reversing or undertaking other manoeuvres. Pedestrians who are not trained in traffic management and/or not using the appropriate PPE will be directed well away from traffic.

I agree that those standing in busy roads directing traffic need something to make them visible. However a driving instructor may need to keep one in the car in case of accidents, but not wearing one!

 

[TDK]

Orange is still the colour when on the line. A platform isn't considered being on or near the line but some TOCs like platform staff to be in HV to be visible to passengers.

It is if you are working withing 4'6" from the platform edge

 

[jon0844]

I agree that those standing in busy roads directing traffic need something to make them visible. However a driving instructor may need to keep one in the car in case of accidents, but not wearing one!

Maybe they wear it instead of carrying it, in case something happens?

Certainly in some countries, it's law that you have one in the car for every person. If you break down and need to get out, you put one on (obviously you don't need to if you can just get out and onto a pavement!).

Perhaps that seems OTT, but I can imagine it being quite good on an unlit motorway, when the whole family has to get out.